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Old 04-22-2013, 04:03 PM   #421
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Capthead--- If you got a coolant temperature change after simply changing oil types I would be very suspicious that you've got a thermostat problem or a developing one. Either a faulty thermostat or the wrong rating for the engine.

Note my raw water pump change and the results from it described in my previous post. If this radical change in the volume of cooling water going through the heat exchangers didn't change the engines' coolant temperature at all, then even if your engine does run a tad cooler from the oil change, it should not be enough to overcome the effect of the thermostat unless you've got the wrong one or a failing one in the engine.

And if the synthetic oil actually HAS lowered the coolant temperature despite the best efforts of the thermostat then one can conclude that it has had a significant lowering of the combustion chamber temperatures and that, in a diesel, is Not Good.
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Old 04-22-2013, 04:10 PM   #422
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Marin, The month before that I bought new heat exchangers, new hoses, new belts, coolant and thermostats. Everything was new. I had made two trips with the new setup and noted the temps were a steady 180 continuously after attaining cruising speed. I have a three mile 5 Kt harbor cruise before the outer harbor and then it's no speed limit to the breakwall and the ocean.

I always watch my temps. I also have new raw water pumps and I service them annually. My wet elbows I change every seven or eight years too. I keep a maintenance schedule and I know my boat and my engines.

Thank you.
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Old 04-22-2013, 04:34 PM   #423
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So you are saying your engine temps have remained at 180 before and after your change to synthetic. Well, that sounds normal to me, then. It was only when it was sounding like you were claiming your engine temp dropped after changing to synthetic that the immediate thought was you have faulty or incorrect thermostat installed.
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Old 04-22-2013, 04:42 PM   #424
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[QUOTE=Capthead;151381] Sunchaser, What engine(s) do you have in your trawler? What is their age and hours? . QUOTE]

Perkins Sabre 225TIs. Same as Cat 3056 except blue instead of yellow paint job. About 1800 hours on the clocks and year 2003.

BTW, why not install a puke bottle rather than an Airsep for your breather hose oil mist trap? It would be cheap, quick and done by tomorrow.
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Old 04-22-2013, 05:05 PM   #425
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So you are saying your engine temps have remained at 180 before and after your change to synthetic. Well, that sounds normal to me, then. It was only when it was sounding like you were claiming your engine temp dropped after changing to synthetic that the immediate thought was you have faulty or incorrect thermostat installed.

Things are getting twisted. Sorry. All the cooling work was done prior to the change to synthetic. I failed to mention I also added coolant recovery bottles and radiator caps too so I wouldn't have coolant loss.

The trips I made with Rotella 15W-40 (I think it was) were monitored and noted a constant 180 at cruising speed. I made two trips that month and everything was a constant 180. Before that I was experiencing heating up at higher RPM's and that's why I did a complete do over.

When I changed to Delvac 1 ( which was the next month) and made the trip again was when I noticed the 5 degree drop in temp and still today, it is the same 175 at cruising speed.

It happened in both engines too.
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Old 04-22-2013, 05:15 PM   #426
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[QUOTE=sunchaser;151432]
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Originally Posted by Capthead View Post
Sunchaser, What engine(s) do you have in your trawler? What is their age and hours? . QUOTE]

Perkins Sabre 225TIs. Same as Cat 3056 except blue instead of yellow paint job. About 1800 hours on the clocks and year 2003.

BTW, why not install a puke bottle rather than an Airsep for your breather hose oil mist trap? It would be cheap, quick and done by tomorrow.
Wanna trade? I would love newer engines. Those are very nice engines. I only need the M135's for my boat or the American Marine Fords.

Puke Bottle;
I thought about that. My air cleaner is the wire mesh oil bathed type and the breather tube fits next to it. I think I could come up with something and have the tube go into a can of some sort so the oil is contained and the fumes can be added to the engine's intake air.

It's so low tech it's laughable.
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Old 04-22-2013, 05:18 PM   #427
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Okay, then we're back to where we were. If you noticed that kind of a coolant temperature drop then you've got a problem. The first thing one would think is that your thermostats, for whatever reason, are not doing their jobs. There is NO WAY a simple change of oil type should cause a temperature drop that a properly functioning, and properly rated, thermostat should not be able to compensate for.

Doesn't matter how new the thermostats are. I've known people to install a new thermostat and have it go bad within weeks or even be bad out of the box although in your case you say they seemed to be functioning properly at first since your operating coolant temperature remained the same.

Again, using our own engines as an example, we greatly increased the flow of cooling water through the heat exchangers to the point where the transmissions run significantly cooler than they used to. I don't mean a few degrees, I mean ten or twenty. But the engine coolant temps have not varied by a single degree because the thermostats continue to do their jobs.

There is a second explanation for your problem--- for that is what I think it is---- one which we have experienced on our own boat, and that is the sensor/gauge wiring. It takes very little corrosion or whatever to affect the signal from a sensor, or the circuit to the gauge, including the ground connection. We had a coolant temperature gauge on one engine suddenly begin to show a coolant temperature ten degrees less than normal. Turned out to be nothing more than a deteriorated connection to the sensor on the header tank. Cleaned it off and back to 180 went the gauge.

This has nothing to do with whether I think running synthetic oil in your engine is a good idea or not. I doubt synthetics make enough of a difference in these old, loose tolerance, slow-running engines to matter outside of the "promotes-oil-leaks" thing which may or may not have been cured with the newer oils. Depends on who you talk to.

I think what you're seeing with your temperatures has nothing whatsoever to do with the lube oil in your engines. I think it's telling you something's not quite right with the cooling systems. Whatever it is, it's interesting that it's occurring in both engines at the same time. Which may help rule out thermostats and start pointing toward a cause common to both engines--- instrument voltage, connections, I don't know.
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Old 04-22-2013, 05:29 PM   #428
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There is NO WAY a simple change of oil type should cause a temperature drop that a properly functioning thermostat should not be able to compensate for.I think what you're seeing with your temperatures has nothing whatsoever to do with the lube oil in your engines I think it's telling you something's not quite right with the cooling systems.
As I suggested in Post# 29 .............
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Old 04-22-2013, 05:37 PM   #429
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As I suggested in Post# 29 .............

Yes, you did, and the more I've thought about it since then the more apparent it becomes to me that this has to be the cause of the temperature drop.
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Old 04-22-2013, 06:10 PM   #430
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The next time I go to the boat, I'll check the connection to the temp sensor. I'm not going out for at least four or five months because I'm tearing the entire deck off the boat and replacing it from the house to the gunnell. Under the bulwarks. It will be a long process and I'm working alone too.

If the record we recorded get's picked up and we tour, things for me will change.

One last question.

I changed to synthetic port engine first. Trip made to Catalina right after the change, port 175 starboard 180.
Get back and so happy with the port I change starboard to Delvac 1.
Next trip, both at 175.

Is it the gremlins?
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Old 04-22-2013, 07:36 PM   #431
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[
BTW, why not install a puke bottle rather than an Airsep for your breather hose oil mist trap? It would be cheap, quick and done by tomorrow.
That's true but what the puke bottle doesn't do is create a vacuum in the engine that keeps the oil from dripping through leaky seals and routes it back to the oil pan.
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Old 04-22-2013, 07:36 PM   #432
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Is it the gremlins?
Dunno, but I doubt it's the oil. If I had a temperature drop like that in our engines like that due to switching to a different oil, I would switch back. A cooler diesel is not what you want unless, of course, it is overheating which at 180 degrees it definitely is not.

We have an acquaintance in the UK who built a successful business and career from servicing, maintaining, and overhauling Ford of England diesels including the Dorset diesel which is the base engine for the FL120. I know you have a different engine in your boat so what I'm going to relay may not apply.

At the time we met him he had a sailboat with an FL120 in it. In talking to him about the best care and feeding of the Dorset/FL120 engine he remarked that the fastest way to kill a Dorset is to overheat it. The head gasket is comparatively weak and the head is very susceptible to warping if it's overheated.

But, he went on to say, the Dorset likes a nice hot running temperature. He said that 190 degrees was ideal. When I expressed concern about the temperature we see on our boat, 180, he said that it was okay and may be inevitable given the colder waters we boat in, but anything lower than that he said would be cause for concern.

As I say, this conversation was specifically about the Ford of England Dorset/FL120. But if we did what you did and got that kind of a coolant temperature drop and we could not trace it to a thermostat or a problem with sensors, gauges, voltages or wiring, we'e be changing the oil back to what we'd been running before.

Good luck with your new album. I hope it gets picked up and takes off.
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Old 04-22-2013, 08:55 PM   #433
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Thanks for explaining the concern. I have always seen the temps at 180 almost the entire time I had it except when it started overheating which was a very slow process. This, of course before the change over to synthetic. I never found out what exactly caused the overheating and I had the old heat exchangers flushed and pressure tested, changed the impellers in my raw water pump and even flushed the fresh water system once before changing everything out. I bought four thermostats and changed then twice.

I didn't want overheating because I knew that would kill those diesels. When I saw the drop to 175 I was rejoicing actually. That was 1994 or 95. I've put thousands of miles on the boat since then and fished from Santa Barbara to Dana Point. I'm not going to worry about it and I still have the two extra thermostats. They just don't have a hole in them for bleeding the air.

Thanks again.
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Old 04-22-2013, 11:48 PM   #434
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But, he went on to say, the Dorset likes a nice hot running temperature. He said that 190 degrees was ideal. When I expressed concern about the temperature we see on our boat, 180, he said that it was okay and may be inevitable given the colder waters we boat in, but anything lower than that he said would be cause for concern.
Marin

I don't mean to shoot several of us in the foot... but... what you quote from UK expert has potential to do so.

I've closely followed this thread. Along with you and some others... I too said that far as I know no matter what was to be "changed in the engine", i.e. type coolant, type oil, or for that matter water temp travelled in... That the thermostat would automatically correct coolant water flow to hold the engine at thermostatís rated temp. From what your UK expert mentions, maybe not?? First I've heard that.
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Old 04-23-2013, 12:23 AM   #435
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That's true but what the puke bottle doesn't do is create a vacuum in the engine that keeps the oil from dripping through leaky seals and routes it back to the oil pan.
Walt, I am a bit intrigued by this vacuum air separator type of gadget, and wonder if I could get me one, as it might cure small oil leaks from under my engine. Especially since for simplicity I ditched the old oil impregnated foam air cleaner for one of these pod jobs, so the crankcase/rocker cover vent now does just that...vent rather than re-enter the air intake. It was just too much of a fiddle to try and set that up with the pod cleaner element.

As to this synthetic oil debate...where are you up to in your experiment re that...?

It also appears no-one bothered to read the several,posts I put up ages ago, basically explaining exactly what Marin's Ford Expert in the UK said. Thermostats only set the minimum temp at which time they open. Once open, they don't control the maximum the water might rise to, which is usually a few degrees above the usual, operating temp, so there is if you like, some 'head room'. That being the case, as observed, colder raw water temps can indeed lead to slightly cooler running, (without the thermostat closing), even with a perfectly functioning thermostat, so less friction from a syn oil could also show up in the same way.
Did you other guys copy that...?
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Old 04-23-2013, 12:53 AM   #436
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Walt, I am a bit intrigued by this vacuum air separator type of gadget, and wonder if I could get me one, as it might cure small oil leaks from under my engine. Especially since for simplicity I ditched the old oil impregnated foam air cleaner for one of these pod jobs, so the crankcase/rocker cover vent now does just that...vent rather than re-enter the air intake. It was just too much of a fiddle to try and set that up with the pod cleaner element.

As to this synthetic oil debate...where are you up to in your experiment re that...?

It also appears no-one bothered to read the several,posts I put up ages ago, basically explaining exactly what Marin's Ford Expert in the UK said. Thermostats only set the minimum temp at which time they open. Once open, they don't control the maximum the water might rise to, which is usually a few degrees above the usual, operating temp, so there is if you like, some 'head room'. That being the case, as observed, colder raw water temps can indeed lead to slightly cooler running, (without the thermostat closing), even with a perfectly functioning thermostat, so less friction from a syn oil could also show up in the same way.
Did you other guys copy that...?
Peter

It's not that I didn't read your input on thermostat, and it's not that I didn't think about it... but my decades of learning always showed that thermostats open and close incrementally to satisfy the temperature of coolant going through them, i.e. to maintain coolant temp at the exact temp the thermostat is set to accomplish. I still believe that until proven different! Just because someone says something (i.e. Marin’s UK expert-buddy... or even you, re engine temps and thermostat) does not always make it true. Thermostats are set to open at different spacing to control coolant flow in order to maintain coolant temp the thermostat is set at. Many years ago I did a pretty thorough (armature as it was) test on thermostat reaction to different temp waters... carefully using a temperature gauge. Hotter the water got, wider open was the thermostat spring assisted flap. Cooler water got more closed was the thermostat. It happens the exact same way inside cooling system. No matter the coolant type, oil type, or waters being cruised in!
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Old 04-23-2013, 12:56 AM   #437
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That the thermostat would automatically correct coolant water flow to hold the engine at thermostat’s rated temp. From what your UK expert mentions, maybe not?? First I've heard that.
All thermostats are not created equal. You can get them for the Ford Dorset/FL120 in different ratings, for example. So depending on what thermostat the engine is equipped with, this can affect the coolant temperature you see on the gauge. I think our acquaintance's point was simply that 190 is the temperature he favors the most for the Dorset/FL120 but if the engine is such that it shows 180 that's okay.

I'd have to talk to our diesel shop and/or the Smiths at American Diesel to learn more about this.
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Old 04-23-2013, 01:15 AM   #438
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Walt, I am a bit intrigued by this vacuum air separator type of gadget, and wonder if I could get me one, as it might cure small oil leaks from under my engine. Take the time to really study the Walker Engineering site. Airseps have been around a long time & they work!

As to this synthetic oil debate...where are you up to in your experiment re that...? As I originally stated: I just changed my oil a short time ago and want to get some use out of the new before I change over, but make no mistake, I will change to a synthetic & carefully monitor the environment the boat runs in as well as gauge readings that are pertinent to the operation of the engine, before and after. Hopefully within the same 24 hour period with sea temps equal if at all possible.
There have been several posts that point to my problem as being caused (or controlled ) by the thermostat. I certainly can't find fault with that and is the reason I've changed thermostats twice while pursuing my (perceived) problem. As stated earlier, my engine may be one whos normal operating temp is 192 degrees. But why, then, do other 330B engines run cooler?

Again, changing to a synthetic may help, but if it doesn't, I'm still within the specs as published by Cummins. We shall see.
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Old 04-23-2013, 01:38 AM   #439
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Walt, I've been giving your temperature issue some thought for a while.

Has the accuracy of your temperature probe and gauge been verified?

Forgive me if I missed you stating that already, it's a long thread and I may have missed you posting that. I ask because I've found inaccuracies in probes and gauges in other applications lead to needless time and dollars spent chasing a perceived equipment problem only turn out to be instrument calibration issues.
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Old 04-23-2013, 05:42 AM   #440
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There is also two other factors coming into it regarding thermostat operations. One is ( Art take note), they are not, repeat not, precision instruments...
and two, you are forgetting they operate along the principle called a hysteresis loop. I have already posted what that is, so look up Google if you want, but the essence of it is, they don't open and close at precisely the same temperature, otherwise they would be snapping open and shut endlessly and inefficiently, as this degree of precision is not required - rather like an autopilot does not try to correct every minor heading change - the engines are really not that fussy, as long as they are within a range, that's hot enough, but not too hot.
I can vouch for the fact that my gauge runs at about 83 deg C, in winter, and nearer 90C (88-89 actually) in summer, because we have quite a difference in water temp. That will all else being the same, in terms of rpm, distance, time of day etc. what more can one say...?
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