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Old 04-21-2013, 10:31 PM   #401
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Hey Eric, I agree, I was overly sensitive to Amsoil's ads . I'm not against them at all and I'm sure they make a great product.

Art, you have chosen a great dino oil and it's working great for you. I agree that Valvoline is one of the best, if not the best dino oil. I also think you would see a difference switching to a premium synthetic but if you don't think the added benefit justifies the cost, I understand that too.

We have explored the full spectrum and I think this discussion has been one of the best in any forum I'm a member of. I thank everybodies contribution and lets keep it going.
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Old 04-22-2013, 01:09 AM   #402
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Hey Eric, I agree, I was overly sensitive to Amsoil's ads . I'm not against them at all and I'm sure they make a great product.

Art, you have chosen a great dino oil and it's working great for you. I agree that Valvoline is one of the best, if not the best dino oil. I also think you would see a difference switching to a premium synthetic but if you don't think the added benefit justifies the cost, I understand that too.

We have explored the full spectrum and I think this discussion has been one of the best in any forum I'm a member of. I thank everybodies contribution and lets keep it going.
Capt - To me cost is never a factor in what lube to use. Correct/best lube is the blood of any engine. Only reason I don't switch to synth oil is because for many years I've gotten such great results and had real good luck with high quality, high detergent HD Valvoline dino diesel oil and ZDDP zinc additive. I can't switch until I feel the synth oil will surely improve the lube blend in my "classic" flat tappet gasoline engines. It needs to be better by a very notable level or else there is no real reason to change. Iíve still not seen conclusive proof that synth oil would be all that much better for my classic engines. But, my eyes and ears are wide open to be convinced...

Iíve read and heard a lot so far, still waiting for proof that I should change!
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Old 04-22-2013, 07:26 AM   #403
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Damn - Heat in that turbo charger video is plumb SCARY!!
Yeah, maybe, but it doesn't have much to do with your trawler engine. And to put that video in context, it is on a gasoline engine operating under high load for an extended period at maximum EGT well above anything a diesel will experience.

Not only that, you are looking at the gas path, not the lubricated bearing section. There is a large flow of cool oil bathing the bearing and keeping it cool, very close to the temperature of the oil itself.

Where the extreme temperature of a turbo comes into play as something you need to be concerned about is if and when that engine with the red hot turbo is suddenly shut down. All that heat is still there and it will cook the oil remaining in the bearing and the carbon produced will destroy the bearing in short order.

Idle the engine for a while and the potential for that problem goes away. Large engines use a separate electrically powered "soak-back" pump to circulate oil through the bearing for a period of time to prevent "coking" on the bearing and its housing.

That is a scare video intended to sell oil. It is not a description of where heat exists in a turbo and how it impacts the components of that turbo. Sure, it is a scary sight if you don't know the physics and the mechanics but that sells oil doesn't it?

Anyone who has ever flown a turbocharged recip aircraft at night has probably seen exactly the same thing for hours and hours. The Navajo Chieftan is a good example because the turbo is very visible. The E-type Jag manifold also glowed red at night at high speeds.

Gas engines run a hot exhaust ... that is perfectly normal. They don't show a nicely water cooled diesel turbo or tell you to idle after a high power run before shutting down do they? No, that doesn't sell oil.
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Old 04-22-2013, 10:13 AM   #404
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I found too many plusses by changing and I have old slow Ford of Dagenham England diesels that had three hour meter changes and a guess would be between 3000 and 3500 hours on them. I run at 1600-1700 RPM and they run cooler, burn less oil, leak less oil and I have almost no sheen on the water.

Cost wasn't in my way either, I just wanted to challenge the GB Owners group that told me I can't or shouldn't do it because I'll clean out all that protective carbon and open up a can of worms and possibly ruin my engines. I'll burn more oil and it'll be too costly.

So far none of those results has happened. I'm more than satisfied with the results and will continue to use it. Now if I go cruising and don't bring enough for that cruise I'll switch back with no problem doing that.

Another thing I found was the engines are quieter with synthetic.
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Old 04-22-2013, 10:25 AM   #405
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I run at 1600-1700 RPM and they run cooler, burn less oil, leak less oil and I have almost no sheen on the water.
.
I too run my engines at 1700 RPM. Using the recommended DELO 400 non syn the engines:
  • have NO heating issues
  • have NO oil leaks
  • burn NO unusual oil amounts
  • have NO oil sheen
  • hear NO unusual engine noise, especially with my hearing aids off
QED - all marine engines should use non syn oil unless otherwise stated in the book.
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Old 04-22-2013, 10:27 AM   #406
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I too run my engines at 1700 RPM. Using the recommended DELO 400 non syn the engines:
  • have NO heating issues
  • have NO oil leaks
  • burn NO unusual oil amounts
  • have NO oil sheen
  • hear NO unusual engine noise, especially with my hearing aids off
QED - all marine engines should use non syn oil unless otherwise stated in the book.
How many hours are on your engines?

I used Delo 400 and found it was the worse oil for me.
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Old 04-22-2013, 10:51 AM   #407
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Wow Cap that's like say'in chevies are no good in 1965. I use Delo and wonder how you determined that Delo "was the worse oil for me". Haha your wording not mine.

I probably use Delo as I worked in gold mines as a young man and I don't remember anything but blue. I worked in a powerhouse in one mine and they used a "re-redfiner" and Delo oil. Straight 30 weight by the way. I was going to use Shell oil in my new Mitsu but going to Alaska at the time made me think of availability and so I used Delo and still do. Don't see any reason to change to any other "lubricant".

There is an oil brand that I shy away from though. Didn't someone on this thread say that Amsoil was Mobil 1 ?

However looking at the very long term picture we all may be using synthetic oil some day just like we use radial tires now.
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Old 04-22-2013, 11:07 AM   #408
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I'll try and answer that. When I bought the boat I asked the PO what he used as oil and he was using Valvoline car oil straight 30W I think. This was my first diesel engine ever and now I had three so I asked around because I knew car oil wasn't right for diesel engines. Almost everyone said Delo. There were those 5 gal plastic cans everywhere with used oil in them.

Not far from the port were truck supply stores and they sold Delo 30 or 40W as bulk oil by the gallon. Just bring a container and fill it up, or buy a new can. I got the 30W and used that for my first oil change. The new 5 gal blue plastic cans.

My hour meters logged off we went. I noticed that the first 50 hours I would use/leak about 2 or 3 quarts per engine. I thought that was a lot. Then the second 50 it would take almost a gallon to a gallon to top it off. I used Delo for three years and that never changed.

I was talking about the excessive oil use to a friend and he asked what I was using. I said Delo and he said that's why. He suggested Shell Rotella multi weight. I changed to that and found the engines didn't change oil consumption/leaking at about the 50 hour mark. It slowed to a gallon per engine for the entire 100 hours.

They say oil doesn't break down. I thought the Delo did at 50 hours about for my engines. Maybe it was because I used straight 30 and I tried 40 but whatever the reason, it changed at about 50 hours.

That is why I said that. I don't know how the engines were serviced with the four owners before me. All I know is they all were wealthy men who hired out everything done to the boat. None did a hands on.
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Old 04-22-2013, 11:21 AM   #409
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If I switched to synthetic oil from Delo 400 and it made my engine run cooler,burn less oil, leak less oil, almost eliminate sheen on water and run quieter, I would also think that Delo 400 was the worst oil. I would also think that synthetic oil is magic oil as it gave the same results as if I had rebuilt my engines by just changing the oil.
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Old 04-22-2013, 11:25 AM   #410
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My engines leak oil like an old Harley. I'm slowly correcting them and the leaking from the front seals has almost stopped entirely after the change to Delvac 1. Another area they leak is the mechanical tach drive that sits at the front of the engine. I need to change out my tachs and go with the alternators for that fix. Then I'll have to machine a plate to seal that opening the drive sets in.

The last place is the crank case breather. On my engines they are on the side of the engine, not the top valve cover like the Dovers and Dorsets. It comes out of that side plate where the push rods are and lots of oil leaks from it. A bad design. I was thinking I could make a collector can below the tube that could drain back in the engine somewhere, possibly the dip stick tube.
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Old 04-22-2013, 11:41 AM   #411
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If I switched to synthetic oil from Delo 400 and it made my engine run cooler,burn less oil, leak less oil, almost eliminate sheen on water and run quieter, I would also think that Delo 400 was the worst oil. I would also think that synthetic oil is magic oil as it gave the same results as if I had rebuilt my engines by just changing the oil.
Yes, and the oil leak around the filler cap was gone too! Syn is magic stuff. Unless I knew better, I'd swear Syns came from the moon, nah they come from a Fischer Tropch petrochemical refinery.
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Old 04-22-2013, 12:56 PM   #412
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Yes, and the oil leak around the filler cap was gone too! Syn is magic stuff. Unless I knew better, I'd swear Syns came from the moon, nah they come from a Fischer Tropch petrochemical refinery.


Give me a break!!

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Old 04-22-2013, 12:58 PM   #413
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Cap,
The PO of your boat used car oil formulated for gasoline engines. There's a good chance the last two or three owners did the same thing and continued the POs practice. I think diesel lube oil has much more detergents.

In the 50s detergent oil was a new thing and if you had an old high millage car the new detergent oils cut loose lots of old sludge and caused lots of problems ... even ruining engines. When you went in for an oil change they would ask you if you wanted detergent or non-detergent oil.

Your experience may be similar. The use of auto oils for gas engines allowed sludge buildup and in certian areas the sludge was providing sealing properties and masking other problems. You switch to ultra high detergent (compared to the auto oils) and almost immediately things change and not all to the good. But freed up rings and other good things probably took place. All the above is predictable and is not an unusual occurrence.

Why the synthetic oil has been a plus for you is unexplainable to me other than the possibility of freed up rings causing increased compression, more complete combustion and less sheen. After some oil changes the reduction in sludge probably had something to do w the reduced temps but what ??? And leaking ??? Hasn't been enough time to build up the sludge again ?? Unless your engine is running very hot synthetic oil shouldn't be of any significant benefit. A reduction in friction? I think there is but I also think it's so small as not to be of any cost effective value.

There are good reasons that can explain what happened in your oil experience. I suspect the automotive oils of the past and other variables not known to me/us caused what happened. I suspect the synthetic may have ha something to do w it too but I consider it to be a very dark horse.
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Old 04-22-2013, 01:08 PM   #414
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If you looked on the GB forum about ten years ago, I changed in about 95, there were several owners that changed and had similar results as I had. How do you factor that in?

I always thought Valvoline was a detergent oil too.

I, like you, think the added detergents in the Delvac 1 cleaned my rings and especially the oil ring. When I say I have oil leaks, they are small irritating leaks, not big dripping leaks. Just enough leak to show in my drip pans below the engines. I might have mislead you on the leaking.

The evidence I think that proves the cleaner rings is the fact that the crankcase breather tube now has a very small leak. I think this shows less blowby. It will now get a few drips an hour, not like before when it always looked wet with oil.
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Old 04-22-2013, 01:10 PM   #415
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By the way, my engines sound great, run smooth and start cold on about the second revolution and as soon as I hear the starter when warm. They never crank over and over before they catch.
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Old 04-22-2013, 01:40 PM   #416
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Sunchaser,

What engine(s) do you have in your trawler? What is their age and hours? Did you buy the boat new?

I'm the fifth owner of my boat and the first one that does their own maintenance with records. The only logs I have are from the second owner and he used Delo 30W.
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Old 04-22-2013, 02:22 PM   #417
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I have almost no sheen on the water.
The fact that you have a sheen means you have a problem. That generation of engine, like our FL120s, will put a sheen of unburned fuel on the water at cold startup and for a few minutes after that as the combustion chamber temperatures are coming up to normal. If he sheen doesn't go away after a few minutes then your engine is not running at its optimum.

Our engine exhausts put a sheen on the water behind the boat at cold startup. Five minutes later, give or take, the sheen is gone and there is no more evidence of unburned fuel coming out the exhaust.

When we bought our GB we followed the advice of the folks we talked to in the marine diesel manufacturing industry (and the engine manual) and use single weight conventional oil, in our case Delo 400 30wt. We have been doing this for 14 years now. Here are the comparison figures for our engines from when we first bought the boat in 1998. Since buying the boat we have put some 2,500 hours on the engines. The numbers apply to each engine.

Coolant operating temperature in 1998--- 180 degrees
Coolant operating temperature in 2013--- 180 degrees

Engine start time in 1998--- immediate, as soon as engine cranks.
Engine start time in 2013--- immediate, as soon as engine cranks.

Oil change interval in 1998--- 100 to 150 hours.
Oil change interval in 2013--- 100 to 150 hours.

Lube oil consumption per engine between oil changes in 1998--- 1 to 1.5 quarts.
Lube oil consumption per engine between oil changes in 1998--- 1 to 1.5 quarts.

Duration of fuel sheen after startup in 1998--- approx five minutes.
Duration of fuel sheen after startup in 2013--- approx five minutes.

Engine oll leaks in 1998--- none.
Engine oil leaks in 2013--- One, from the fuel lift pump gasket on the starboard engine, very common FL120 leak, repaired last week.

NOTE: We had the stock raw water pumps on both engines changed due to the finite life of the Lehman drive coupler for the pump. These couplers are no longer available and according to Bob Smith (who designed it) they are not repairable. Well, they are, but according to Bob the repair never lasts long.

The pumps we installed have a much greater water flow than the stock pumps. This resulted in a significant lowering of the transmission temperatures (a Very Good Thing). However, this much greater flow did not affect the engine's coolant temperatures by a single degree. Why? Because the thermostats in our engines are working properly and they continued to keep the coolant temperature at the proper setting, same as they did with the smaller, stock pumps.

For this reason I am VERY skeptical that simply switching oil types would have any effect whatsoever on the coolant temperature of an engine unless the thermostat was defective, failing, or of the wrong type.
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Old 04-22-2013, 02:30 PM   #418
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That's what I'm talking about. Not after it's warmed up. I figured most people would know I was talking at startup.

Didn't mean to confuse.
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Old 04-22-2013, 02:34 PM   #419
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When I say I have oil leaks, they are small irritating leaks, not big dripping leaks. Just enough leak to show in my drip pans below the engines.
Capthead: If I didn't know better I'd swear you're talking about my old 38' sport fisher. She had twin Cummins 5.9 210hp engines that dripped oil constantly. (Not much...just enough to piss me off.) I finally bought a pair of Walker AirSeps and, voila, drips were gone!

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Old 04-22-2013, 03:37 PM   #420
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Thanks Walt! I saw those when they first came out and the price slowed me down a bit. I never talked to anybody that bought them. You are the first.

I should look further into them. I do want a cleaner engine room and that breather is probably 99% of the nasty
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