Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 03-30-2013, 12:02 PM   #361
Guru
 
Codger2's Avatar
 
City: San Diego
Country: US
Vessel Name: "Sandpiper"
Vessel Model: 2006 42' Ocean Alexander Sedan
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,421
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Schreck View Post
Out of spec Diesel fuel will cause high coolant temps,When the cetane level drops below a certain value the fuel will not burn @ the proper time, Transferring the heat energy from driving the piston into the cooling system.
Do you have A published source for that info? I'd love to see it!
__________________
Advertisement

__________________
Codger2

My passion for improving my boat(s) exceeds my desire to constantly cruise them.
Codger2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2013, 12:02 PM   #362
Art
Guru
 
Art's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 7,985
Quote:
Originally Posted by manyboats View Post
Walt since you've entered into this as a serious experiment I think the most objective results will be obtained by removing the thermostat. Check w Cummins to make sure running w/o the thermostat is totally safe. I don't see how the results could be considered stable enough to produce objective results w the thermostat in place.

Then adhere to the scientific method of 3. One experiment gets our attention. Two indicates that there's a strong possibility and they say you can take 3 to the bank. Of course 4 or 5 would make some folks feel better 3 is considered to be sufficient.

And then try to think of the many other variables that could take the experiment astray. If the sun has evaporated the dew on the foredeck but left it in the aft cockpit the boat will run at a higher angle of attack causing more load on the engine at the same rpm and thus cause the coolant to run hotter. I'm joking of course but there are likely unknown variables that will affect the outcome of the experiment. On your boat at the 8.5 knots you usually run full or light fuel and water could change the load enough to change the engine temp. That's the other extreme to the first example but you get the picture I'm sure.


Art re the hot Perkins ............ why didn't it loose coolant? Over all those running hours surely you would have had to add unusual amounts of coolant and included that in your account.
Eric - That's one of the odd items about the "head" problem on the Perkins. I do not recall any coolant reductions of volume. In the first season of use (while engine ran quite hot) we took some fairly long trips along the cost and I never recall needing to add coolant. Like I mentioned in my post regarding the Perkins head replacement, I did not get a clear mental picture as to what the actual head problem was. Just that it was a hairline crack or some sort of malformation was all I understood?? I was 13/14 yrs when this all went down and not mechanically savvy enough yet to understand all that was going on or how things were sometimes explained to me. But, it was pretty exciting for me (a kid at that young age) to be closely included into a big project such as that; I felt honored! Having been on and around boats since birth, I was already working summers at boat yards and had fallen in love with all types of boats. Waltís the focus now... I sure hope he can get his temp problem resolved!

BTW: If I read your suggestion correctly; I disagree with you about removing the thermostat, at least upon first engine temp tests. I feel Walt should leave it in at change-over from dino to syn oil... as that seems the only way he will really know if the lubes actually created different engine temps with all else staying equal. Also, I believe he said in earlier post that the thermostat had been changed already... so that means the thermostat is not the culprit for high temp creation.
__________________

Art is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2013, 12:09 PM   #363
Guru
 
Codger2's Avatar
 
City: San Diego
Country: US
Vessel Name: "Sandpiper"
Vessel Model: 2006 42' Ocean Alexander Sedan
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,421
Quote:
Originally Posted by FF View Post

The only part of the engine that might be "better" lubed is the flat tappets running on the cam,the only place where the sheer ability of the oil is really used. Modern engines use roller tappets, no gain.
Scroll to the bottom of the page and click on "Protecting Critical Turbocharger parts"

Synthetic Oil | Why Use
__________________
Codger2

My passion for improving my boat(s) exceeds my desire to constantly cruise them.
Codger2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2013, 12:19 PM   #364
Art
Guru
 
Art's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 7,985
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaHorse II View Post
Scroll to the bottom of the page and click on "Protecting Critical Turbocharger parts"

Synthetic Oil | Why Use
Damn - Heat in that turbo charger video is plumb SCARY!!
Art is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2013, 12:52 PM   #365
Veteran Member
 
City: newport
Country: usa
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaHorse II View Post
Do you have A published source for that info? I'd love to see it!

Al-Khwarizmi Engineering Journal, Vol.8 No. 1, PP 65-75 2012

Efect of fuel cetane # on multi cyl direct injection Diesels
Craig Schreck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2013, 12:52 PM   #366
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,922
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaHorse II View Post
Why are so many people interested in what I'm doing? It's not as if I'm putting saw dust in the differential of an old Ford to sell it! The only thing at risk here is a few hundred dollars of which I can replace by panhandling on the corner for a few days.
Because you keep posting about it????

And believe me..I doubt most care whether you experiment or not as many here often post they don't even care what trained professionals with decades of experience post....
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2013, 12:53 PM   #367
Guru
 
Capthead's Avatar
 
City: Long Beach, CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Heads Up
Vessel Model: Grand Banks 42 Classic
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 950
Marin, It could be several factors also but I think I eliminated these. 1. larger heat exchangers, 2.cool Pacific ocean temps. The reason I say those were eliminated is because I did several crossings that held steady at 180 using Rotella.

I never expected the lower temps nor the reduced sheen. I was going for cleaning out the carbon in the engine. Now I read synthetic oil isn't a high detergent oil. lol
Capthead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2013, 01:22 PM   #368
Guru
 
Codger2's Avatar
 
City: San Diego
Country: US
Vessel Name: "Sandpiper"
Vessel Model: 2006 42' Ocean Alexander Sedan
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,421
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
Because you keep posting about it????
if you referring to my answering the questions that come up....yep, I'm guilty of posting often about it. Sorry for your inconvenience. Please feel free to use your "ignore" button.
__________________
Codger2

My passion for improving my boat(s) exceeds my desire to constantly cruise them.
Codger2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2013, 01:33 PM   #369
Art
Guru
 
Art's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 7,985
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaHorse II View Post
if you referring to my answering the questions that come up....yep, I'm guilty of posting often about it. Sorry for your inconvenience. Please feel free to use your "ignore" button.
Gee Wizz Walt - Don't stop posting!

This is just getting interesting and many seek to not only learn results from your dino to syn oil change-test... but, also to learn more bout your engine's actual reason for developing higher than desired temp readings. BTW: You ever point an infrared temp gun onto parts of engine while running at different rpm to help determine the real temps? Could be your sender or gauge is off a bit Ė but, I bet you already changed them at least once, don't recall your mention of that.
Art is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2013, 01:43 PM   #370
Veteran Member
 
City: newport
Country: usa
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art View Post
Damn - Heat in that turbo charger video is plumb SCARY!!
Well its a good thing they dont use dry turbo exhaust housings on boats anymore but where does all that heat go in a wet exhaust housing ? Its a good thing we have an entire ocean to transfer heat to. Does fuel and cetane have any effects on exhaust temps Does fuel timing vs crank angle have an effect coolant temps? Ever time your car wrong and over heat? Most marine diesel cooling problems are simple like volume, flow, exchanger efficiency or a loose belt etc.... but sometimes when you have a problem that's stumping the pros you got to get out of the box a little, I have seen some bad cylinder heads crack and allow some exhaust gases into the cooling system causing a load overheat wile allowing no coolant to leak into the cylinders. I have also seen fresh water coolant circulating pumps cavitate allowing bubbles to cause high temp from reduced heat transfer,I have seen people run straight anti freeze with no water, the old green stuff with tons of silicon, well the silicon will coat the cooling system reducing heat transfer causing high temps, wile very uncommon it happens. Oh and for the scary turbo vid, The fella said they were simulating racing conditions with synth oil vs standard dino, they should have used a racing dino for those conditions it would have preformed much better.
Craig Schreck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2013, 02:06 PM   #371
Guru
 
City: Hotel, CA
Country: Fried
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 8,328
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaHorse II View Post
The only thing at risk here is a few hundred dollars of which I can replace by panhandling on the corner for a few days.


As Skipperdude is now living off the grid I'll post the following in his honor.



Walt you crack my ass up!
Attached Images
 
__________________
Craig

It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled - Mark Twain
CPseudonym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2013, 03:13 PM   #372
Veteran Member
 
City: newport
Country: usa
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by CPseudonym View Post


As Skipperdude is now living off the grid I'll post the following in his honor.



Walt you crack my ass up!

NICE ass...
Craig Schreck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2013, 07:18 PM   #373
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
I received this today in an e-mail from a friend whose career is installing, servicing, and maintaining marine engines of all kinds in everything from recreational production boats to custom yachts. I had commented to him on the topic of this thread and here is his reply.

You all can certainly comment on what he wrote but as I possess but one ten thousandth of one percent of his engine experience and knowledge I am in no position to either defend or refute it other than to say it sure makes sense to me.

----------------------

Many people believe that almost all of the heat produced by a diesel engine comes from combustion. In fact, they may be interested to learn that friction losses can amount to as high as 10 percent of an engine's heat rejection.

Synthetics flow much easier at low temperatures. They also flow much easier at operating temperature so, yes, they do reduce friction by a measurable amount and require less power to pump the stuff around. That reduction is reflected in less heat produced by friction and fuel burn. The piston ring to cylinder contact is responsible for about 50 percent of the friction losses (friction produced heat) and the bearings provide another 30 percent or so.

The bottom line is that synthetic lube will lower engine heat production and by extension,temperature. But, and this is the big but, if the cooling system is functioning properly with adequate margins for fouling, high sea temperature, and loss of efficiency from pump wear or other normal conditions, the difference would be lost in the noise.

The two or three degrees you mentioned is what I would call noise. There are other issues that make that visible and those issues could be a cooling system or installation that has zero margin, a difference in bearing clearances, ring pressure (how tight in the cylinders)block casting roughness, a single bearing running hotter than the others (we measure individual bearing temps in large engines rather than assume an average based on measuring oil temp) or just normal manufacturing tolerances. That is why there is a range of allowable temperatures rather than a single figure.

Someone else changing to synthetic might see a temperature change if their engine is operating at the upper limits of its margin of heat rejection, or see nothing at all if the system is operating at the lower margin or in the middle. By system, I don't mean just cooling system, I mean the boat and its auxiliaries as a complete system in the sense of physics.

-------------------------------
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2013, 07:42 PM   #374
Guru
 
City: North Charleston, SC
Country: USA
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 4,390
373 posts!

I got lost and gave up a couple hundred posts ago. Has anything been decided? Anyone changed their position on the controversy? Should I switch to synthetic? How about a blend? Or stay with conventional oil?

1999 Volvo TAMD41P 3K+ hours
rwidman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2013, 07:57 PM   #375
Guru
 
Codger2's Avatar
 
City: San Diego
Country: US
Vessel Name: "Sandpiper"
Vessel Model: 2006 42' Ocean Alexander Sedan
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,421
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marin View Post
I am in no position to either defend or refute it other than to say it sure makes sense to me. (Makes sense to me, too!

----------------------
In fact, they may be interested to learn that friction losses can amount to as high as 10 percent of an engine's heat rejection. (Really!)

Synthetics flow much easier at low temperatures. They also flow much easier at operating temperature so, yes, they do reduce friction by a measurable amount ............

The bottom line is that synthetic lube will lower engine heat production and by extension,temperature. We'll see........

The two or three degrees you mentioned is what I would call noise. There are other issues that make that visible and those issues could be a cooling system or installation that has zero margin..........given what I've already done, I could subscribe to this quite easily.

Someone else changing to synthetic might see a temperature change if their engine is operating at the upper limits of its margin of heat rejection, I believe, at the moment, that is the case with my engine. I'm going forward, however, with the change. I can see no down side to this experiment. Only an upside.
-------------------------------
Thanks, Marin...One hell uv a post!
__________________
Codger2

My passion for improving my boat(s) exceeds my desire to constantly cruise them.
Codger2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2013, 11:46 PM   #376
Art
Guru
 
Art's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 7,985
HAPPY EASTER TO ALL!!!

Art is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2013, 11:53 PM   #377
Master and Commander
 
markpierce's Avatar
 
City: Vallejo CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Carquinez Coot
Vessel Model: 2011 Seahorse Marine Coot hull #6
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 10,265
I follow the engine builder's manual.
__________________
Kar-KEEN-ez Koot
markpierce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2013, 12:02 AM   #378
Guru
 
Northern Spy's Avatar
 
City: Powell River, BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Northern Spy
Vessel Model: Nordic Tug 26
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,672
Goodness gracious! Is this still going on?

If this is still going on this Tuesday, I'll consider joining in again. Otherwise, I am on time-off.
Northern Spy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2013, 07:26 AM   #379
Guru
 
dhmeissner's Avatar
 
City: Seattle
Country: North America
Vessel Name: The Promise
Vessel Model: Roughwater 35
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,326
I don't think the issue is resolved. Many posts ago I recommended Yak Fat, but apparently no one took it seriously. Oh well...



Happy Easter!
__________________
Dave & Suzie - Roughwater 35
http://thepromiserwb1029.org/2012/09...the-promise-2/
dhmeissner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2013, 07:35 AM   #380
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,534
Turbo cooldown is a concern , but most folks will go from high turbo boost to tied up at a slip in over 3-5 min.

This is ample time to cool down the turbo and not coke the oil in the unit from residual heat.

Perhaps a sport fish , running on the pin that crash stops to anchor and secure the engine frequently might need synthetic.
__________________

FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:37 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012