Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 03-29-2013, 01:48 PM   #321
Art
Guru
 
Art's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 7,981
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
Art - What about the part syn part dino oils like Rotella T-5? They are supposed to have a little of the better of both worlds with even less of the negative.

For years I followed the discussions on Fort Truck Enthusiasts and the Diesel Stop boards and many of the old time pros were really for the blended oils.

Look here... Shell Rotella® Products - Shell Rotella

You may find it interesting also.
Oh No...OMG - Even More Lubes' choices ta thank on! I'll soon research Shell Rotella, saved the link in "favorites". TY - Art
__________________
Advertisement

Art is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2013, 02:22 PM   #322
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Okay, I have only one question that is relevant to me as far as I'm concerned on this topic.

Our boat is 40 years old. At this point our two FL120s have a bit over 3,000 hours on them. We have owned the boat now for 14-1/2 years. Assuming no debilitating health problems and assuming we don't buy a different boat, we anticipate owning and using the boat another 20 years. So we will be putting several thousand more hours on a pair of engines that have a reputation for a service life of 12,000 to 14,000 hours in recreational boat service. This reputation was built when running on the manufacture's recommended oil which is single weight conventional oil.

In the cases I am directly familiar with where an FL120 actually failed to the point of needing an overhaul, the causes were almost always due to a problem involving coolant or raw water. Cooling water/coolant circulation or level failures, blown head gaskets, water backing up the exhaust and entering one or more cylinders, extreme hot spots forming as a result of poor coolant circulation or an air pocket at the front of the Lehman exhaust manifold, and so on.

A retired acquaintance in the UK whose decades-long career was maintaining, repairing, and overhauling Ford of England diesels including the Dorset (base engine of the FL120) told us that the absolute number one killer of that engine is an overheat. The head, he said, is extremely susceptible to warping even after a short period of mild overheating. He is why we have a timer at the helm to remind the person driving to monitor the temp gauges and this has "saved" us on the couple of times a developing cooling problem prompted a quick shutdown before an overheat situation occurred.

So given all that, how would switching to synthetic oil at this point make one iota of difference (other than to our wallets) to the service we expect to get from our engines?

All the evidence points to the fact that if one of our engines does fail in the next 20 years, it will not be due to the lubrication "wear" of using conventional oil.

I have no interest whatsoever in the detaily armchair theorizing and speculation that has composed the bulk of this thread. I don't give a rat's ass about the ppm of zinc in this, that, or the other oil. I look at the service life of the kind of engine we have two of in our boat, a service life that has been conclusively proven by real engines in real boats since the early 1960s using conventional oil, and I don't see how a synthetic oil is going to benefit our engines at all in terms of extending their longevity. When they do die it will be for a reason that will have nothing to do with the kind of oil in them, assuming we change it and the filter regularly, which we do every 100-150 hours.

I'm not saying that synthetic oil won't benefit some other kind of marine diesel, particularly a new-generation one. We use synthetic in our two newest vehicles. But when it ones to boat engines I'm only interested in the ones in our boat and I'm not seeing any reason whatsoever in this thread that points to an increase in their service life or the performance and reliability we will get from them over the next 20 years if we run them on synthetics.
__________________

Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2013, 03:03 PM   #323
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,714
psneeld wrote;

"Art - What about the part syn part dino oils like Rotella T-5? They are supposed to have a little of the better of both worlds with even less of the negative."

So what's the negative?
Seems like a milktoast approach. When ever I use syn oil it's been 100%. If a blend is better than dino then 100% syn is twice as good as the blend. Why bother w the blend?
And a blend could be only 5% synthetic???????
__________________
Eric

North Western Washington State USA
Nomad Willy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2013, 03:04 PM   #324
Art
Guru
 
Art's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 7,981
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marin View Post
Okay, I have only one question that is relevant to me as far as I'm concerned on this topic.

Our boat is 40 years old. At this point our two FL120s have a bit over 3,000 hours on them. We have owned the boat now for 14-1/2 years. Assuming no debilitating health problems and assuming we don't buy a different boat, we anticipate owning and using the boat another 20 years. So we will be putting several thousand more hours on a pair of engines that have a reputation for a service life of 12,000 to 14,000 hours in recreational boat service. This reputation was built when running on the manufacture's recommended oil which is single weight conventional oil.

In the cases I am directly familiar with where an FL120 actually failed to the point of needing an overhaul, the causes were almost always due to a problem involving coolant or raw water. Cooling water/coolant circulation or level failures, blown head gaskets, water backing up the exhaust and entering one or more cylinders, extreme hot spots forming as a result of poor coolant circulation or an air pocket at the front of the Lehman exhaust manifold, and so on.

A retired acquaintance in the UK whose decades-long career was maintaining, repairing, and overhauling Ford of England diesels including the Dorset (base engine of the FL120) told us that the absolute number one killer of that engine is an overheat. The head, he said, is extremely susceptible to warping even after a short period of mild overheating. He is why we have a timer at the helm to remind the person driving to monitor the temp gauges and this has "saved" us on the couple of times a developing cooling problem prompted a quick shutdown before an overheat situation occurred.

So given all that, how would switching to synthetic oil at this point make one iota of difference (other than to our wallets) to the service we expect to get from our engines?

All the evidence points to the fact that if one of our engines does fail in the next 20 years, it will not be due to the lubrication "wear" of using conventional oil.

I have no interest whatsoever in the detaily armchair theorizing and speculation that has composed the bulk of this thread. I don't give a rat's ass about the ppm of zinc in this, that, or the other oil. I look at the service life of the kind of engine we have two of in our boat, a service life that has been conclusively proven by real engines in real boats since the early 1960s using conventional oil, and I don't see how a synthetic oil is going to benefit our engines at all in terms of extending their longevity. When they do die it will be for a reason that will have nothing to do with the kind of oil in them, assuming we change it and the filter regularly, which we do every 100-150 hours.

I'm not saying that synthetic oil won't benefit some other kind of marine diesel, particularly a new-generation one. We use synthetic in our two newest vehicles. But when it ones to boat engines I'm only interested in the ones in our boat and I'm not seeing any reason whatsoever in this thread that points to an increase in their service life or the performance and reliability we will get from them over the next 20 years if we run them on synthetics.
Well, Marin – If as you say...

“I [you] have no interest whatsoever in the detaily armchair theorizing and speculation that has composed the bulk of this thread. And... “I [you] don't give a rat's ass about the ppm of zinc in this, that, or the other oil.” And... you cerntially seem so very sure/satisfied of your current dino lube in your diesels. Then, why are you even bothering to post here? Bored and simply have nothing better ta do, or maybe just want to scold thems that have a true interest in unraveling quality comparisons regarding syn – vs – dino lubes?? Do you wish someone would post a miracle (doubtful to happen) about synthetic oils that might get you to change over from using dino oil; dosen’t appear like that is what you seek. I just don't see why you even bothered to post this long down-beat, thread-busten diatribe!

This has been a great thread. Many are having a good time interacting while we learn for one another... At least that the way I see/feel it!! Just sayen!!
Art is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2013, 03:19 PM   #325
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,908
Quote:
Originally Posted by manyboats View Post
psneeld wrote;

"Art - What about the part syn part dino oils like Rotella T-5? They are supposed to have a little of the better of both worlds with even less of the negative."

So what's the negative?
Seems like a milktoast approach. When ever I use syn oil it's been 100%. If a blend is better than dino then 100% syn is twice as good as the blend. Why bother w the blend?
And a blend could be only 5% synthetic???????
Go back to post number one and begin again...this time pay close attention to what has been said as positives and negatives...for the most part many are true...if so...then each type has it's positives and negatives...by blending you comprimise...you don't get all the good...but you lessen the bad attributes.

Which in my mind is a good thing and if the price point is important...it might be enough to sway you.
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2013, 03:27 PM   #326
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art View Post
[And... you cerntially seem so very sure/satisfied of your current dino lube in your diesels. Then, why are you even bothering to post here? Bored and simply have nothing better ta do, or maybe just want to scold thems that have a true interest in unraveling quality comparisons regarding syn – vs – dino lubes??
No, I'm not bored although I am just sitting here waiting for this plane to fly. I simply find it fascinating how people can get so wrapped around the axle on what is pretty much a theoretical, non-issue in reality. If you enjoy rambling on forever about stuff that obviously isn't going to change anything, have at it. That's the nature and purpose of forums like this, anyway. I was just trying to see if anyone had any concept of actual, real world reality in this discussion. It appears not.
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2013, 03:36 PM   #327
Art
Guru
 
Art's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 7,981
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marin View Post
No, I'm not bored although I am just sitting here waiting for this plane to fly. I simply find it fascinating how people can get so wrapped around the axle on what is pretty much a theoretical, non-issue in reality. If you enjoy rambling on forever about stuff that obviously isn't going to change anything, have at it. That's the nature and purpose of forums like this, anyway. I was just trying to see if anyone had any concept of actual, real world reality in this discussion. It appears not.
Plane will soon fly! Bye, Bye!!
Art is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2013, 03:38 PM   #328
Guru
 
Capthead's Avatar
 
City: Long Beach, CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Heads Up
Vessel Model: Grand Banks 42 Classic
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 950
Back to the lower temp issue. I do believe that the Cummings diesel will benefit from the change over with lower temperatures. I base that on the fact that in my boat, with all new coolant, thermostat and belts, hoses I ran it on Rotella most of a summer. The temps were constantly 180. I was having heating issues and seeing 190 when I ran it 1700 RPM so the new cooling system upgrade helped me bring it to the temps set by the thermostat.

As I mentioned before, I only changed to Delvac 1 on my port engine and on the next trip of three hours running at 1700 RPM I saw a steady 175 on the port engine.

I could be wrong, but I think a lower temp will happen after the change over. It did for me.
Capthead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2013, 03:47 PM   #329
Art
Guru
 
Art's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 7,981
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capthead View Post
Back to the lower temp issue. I do believe that the Cummings diesel will benefit from the change over with lower temperatures. I base that on the fact that in my boat, with all new coolant, thermostat and belts, hoses I ran it on Rotella most of a summer. The temps were constantly 180. I was having heating issues and seeing 190 when I ran it 1700 RPM so the new cooling system upgrade helped me bring it to the temps set by the thermostat.

As I mentioned before, I only changed to Delvac 1 on my port engine and on the next trip of three hours running at 1700 RPM I saw a steady 175 on the port engine.

I could be wrong, but I think a lower temp will happen after the change over. It did for me.
There ya go Marin! Now, that proves there is even something that might even be of interest to you too in this thread! Thank Capthead for the post above, as well as being OP that began this interesting thread on internal engine-parts' lubricity product qualities and their various features.

Oh, and yes, zinc is a very important portion to all engine lubes... especially older diesels and gassers. Read up on it!
Art is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2013, 03:55 PM   #330
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,908
When are you guys gonna realize that diesels ARE SUPPOSED to run hot!

Not overheated but the hotter the better!!!!!!

If you have read any of the threads about underloading and idling...while not all true...running a diesel cold is not good for it....much better for it to be run at its DESIGNED temp...but never hotter than the upper limit...so why would I WANT to run my engine colder than what it should??????

If it runs colder maybe I do need to use syn as it does do a better job of removing the soot...maybe right after it helped create it...
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2013, 04:07 PM   #331
Guru
 
Capthead's Avatar
 
City: Long Beach, CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Heads Up
Vessel Model: Grand Banks 42 Classic
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 950
I think hot is good. Running on synthetic with the reduced friction resulting in cooler water temps probably won't affect the combustion temps where you need hot. Don't you think?
Capthead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2013, 04:14 PM   #332
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art View Post
There ya go Marin! Now, that proves there is even something that might even be of interest to you too in this thread! Thank Capthead for the post above, as well as being OP that began this interesting thread on internal engine-parts' lubricity product qualities and their various features.
Running a diesel colder than it's supposed to be is just dumb. Even my dog knows that. The whole principle behind a diesel is based on combustion chamber heat. Lowering that simply results in reduced combustion properties. You don't want to overheat the engine, of course. But making it run colder? That's nuts, sorry.

You guys are really reaching here to make a case that I don't think can be made.
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2013, 04:16 PM   #333
Guru
 
Capthead's Avatar
 
City: Long Beach, CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Heads Up
Vessel Model: Grand Banks 42 Classic
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 950
I don't think 5 degrees will carbon up my engine. Do you? It's a low tech diesel and mine are Dagenham Ford which are smaller than the Dorset or Dover Fords.
Capthead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2013, 04:26 PM   #334
Art
Guru
 
Art's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 7,981
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
When are you guys gonna realize that diesels ARE SUPPOSED to run hot!

Not overheated but the hotter the better!!!!!!

If you have read any of the threads about underloading and idling...while not all true...running a diesel cold is not good for it....much better for it to be run at its DESIGNED temp...but never hotter than the upper limit...so why would I WANT to run my engine colder than what it should??????

If it runs colder maybe I do need to use syn as it does do a better job of removing the soot...maybe right after it helped create it...
My thought pattern(s) and biggest question about engine running temperature; as it could be related to lubrications and/or thermostat:

So...

Process:

- If oil (any type) actually lubes better than another oil (any type)
- Engine's internal frictions could be reduced
- Heat produced by friction could be reduced
- Thermostat (set at specific temp-point) would close further till engine's heat level is maintained via coolant staying at thermostat's specific temp-point.

Reverse Process:

- If oil (any type) actually lubes worse than another oil (any type)
- Engine's internal frictions could be increased
- Heat produced by friction could be increased
- Thermostat (set at specific temp-point) would open further till engine's heat level is maintained via coolant staying at thermostat's specific temp-point.

Therefore: Isn't it the thermostat that actually/truly/accurately controls engine temp-point pretty much no matter how good the oil or coolant is????

Unless of course, there was complete failure of lube or coolant wherein the overheating would surpass the thermostat’s ability to maintain a lower, workable temp.
Art is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2013, 04:34 PM   #335
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,908
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capthead View Post
I think hot is good. Running on synthetic with the reduced friction resulting in cooler water temps probably won't affect the combustion temps where you need hot. Don't you think?
Not sure ...that would definitely be something that would need to be checked if I was going to swap.

But that's the trick..all I know is what my temp guage tells me and because its nearly impossible to measure combustion chamber temps...all I really care about is overall engine temp mostly...just the tiny little part of the combustion chamber can probably take an enormous amount of heat, the rest of the engine can't.
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2013, 04:36 PM   #336
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,908
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art View Post
My thought pattern(s) and biggest question about engine running temperature; as it could be related to lubrications and/or thermostat:

So...

Process:

- If oil (any type) actually lubes better than another oil (any type)
- Engine's internal frictions could be reduced
- Heat produced by friction could be reduced
- Thermostat (set at specific temp-point) would close further till engine's heat level is maintained via coolant staying at thermostat's specific temp-point.

Reverse Process:

- If oil (any type) actually lubes worse than another oil (any type)
- Engine's internal frictions could be increased
- Heat produced by friction could be increased
- Thermostat (set at specific temp-point) would open further till engine's heat level is maintained via coolant staying at thermostat's specific temp-point.

Therefore: Isn't it the thermostat that actually/truly/accurately controls engine temp-point pretty much no matter how good the oil or coolant is????

Unless of course, there was complete failure of lube or coolant wherein the overheating would surpass the thermostat’s ability to maintain a lower, workable temp.
I would think the thermostat would be the real key...I've never heard of an engine manufacturer specify 2 different op temps due to oil...but I haven't seen all the manuals out there.
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2013, 04:56 PM   #337
Guru
 
Capthead's Avatar
 
City: Long Beach, CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Heads Up
Vessel Model: Grand Banks 42 Classic
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 950
In the newer aluminum gas engines where they recommend synthetic the cooling systems are smaller than on the older cast iron engines. Why not convince an owner of a BMW or Mercedes that says Mobil 1 for oil changes to change to a dino oil like Delo and see what temps they get.
Capthead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2013, 07:08 PM   #338
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Because it would probably void their warranty.

I wouldn't think five degrees would change much in the combustion chamber of an old diesel but it might. I simply don't know. I'm not a diesel designer.

Frankly, I'm surprised the thermostats in your engines didn't catch that and keep the temps the same after the synthetic was used. We swapped our stock raw water pumps for new Johnson pumps, and oversize Johnson pumps at that. The difference in the volume of raw water going through the heat exchangers is significant and it lowered the operating temperatures of the two Velvet Drive transmissions by a lot. This is by feel, not by actually measuring. But where I could keep my hand on them just barely before when they were at full operating temperature, I can rest my hand on them comfortably after the pumps were changed--- they were hot before, now they're just warm.

But..... the engine temperatures did not change a degree (by the gauges) after the big pumps were installed. Why? The thermostats took care of it and kept the engine temps where they are supposed to be (about 180 degrees) despite the much higher volume of raw cooling water going through the engine coolant heat exchangers.

So if all you did was change oil type and you're getting a lower engine temp, I would question the condition of the thermostats. Seems to me they should have kept the engine temps the same.

Who knows.... maybe the best thing changing to synthetics has done for you is show you have a problem in your cooling systems.
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2013, 07:22 PM   #339
Veteran Member
 
City: newport
Country: usa
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 70
337 posts on oil and still going strong.... you guys do know that oil is not the major reason for how long your Diesel will last or preform...
Craig Schreck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2013, 07:23 PM   #340
Guru
 
Codger2's Avatar
 
City: San Diego
Country: US
Vessel Name: "Sandpiper"
Vessel Model: 2006 42' Ocean Alexander Sedan
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,421
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capthead View Post
I could be wrong, but I think a lower temp will happen after the change over. It did for me.

It damn well better!!!
()
__________________

__________________
Codger2

My passion for improving my boat(s) exceeds my desire to constantly cruise them.
Codger2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:55 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012