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Old 03-28-2013, 02:15 AM   #281
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5 degree lower temp with synthetic. Why? Some non scientific non mechanic thoughts.
1. Reduced friction > reduced heat, from better lubrication, ie more "slippery" moving parts.(It does not matter how accurate his gauge is, it`s the change that matters).
2. Better heat conductivity in the oil cooler/heat exchanger.

Thought 1 sounds more likely, 2 sounds like snake oil. There could be others,then again mine could be B.S.
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Old 03-28-2013, 07:47 AM   #282
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Ahoy Capthead

Now, the only important item that still gives me pause to trying/testing-out syn oil in at least one of my 1967 to 1989 classic V8 engines, two high HP and two standard/medium HP, is the circumstance I've read wherein syn oil will eventually ruin the old-school gasket materials and that the mfgs of newer engines recommending syn oil have altered gasket material composition to withstand syn oil. I’ve also read that syn oil has been modified so it no longer affects old-school gaskets?? These two things lead me to believe that originally (and possibly still – but with additive(s) that thwart old-school gasket decomposition) syn oil had/has some sort of solvent type item(s) in its mix... or that at least that the very properties of syn oil used to produce solvent-like results on old-school gasket materials. I sure would not want to have any one or more of my engines begin spewing oil out its gasket areas by having used syn oil for any length of time (months to years to decade or longer) and/or due to any number of oil changes.

So... my questions:

1. What year gaskets were in your engines when you began using syn oil?
2. Have you experienced any new leaks or did existing leaks increase volume after short or long period of syn oil use?
3. What, if anything, do you know or have you read/heard regarding syn oil eventually ruining old-school gasket materials?

Thank you for all the info you personally provided or drew out from others via this thread. If I can feel relatively sure that syn oil will not dilapidate my classic V8 engines’ gaskets I will then for sure try synthetic oil in at least one of my strongly operational V8s.

Side note: I also have a 1990 20’ Malibu Skier I’m restoring with grandson. It has orig 620 hr 350 cid / 270 hp Mercruiser direct drive. We hope to launch this spring/summer. Engine and trany look like new but have not been run for approx nine years (she’s an “in-family” barn find – evidently engine was pickled). Upon Marvel Mystery oiling her as well as several other bearing/ring/cylinder-wall lubrication techniques we will at first hand-crank to be gentle on her old bones (bearings). Then, much starter cranking to reach several sequences of full oil pressure that should insure barrier coatings throughout engine internals. Then we plan to fire that puppy up! I know she ran perf when boat was set aside nearly a decade ago, I saw and heard her during last fresh water ski party in which she was used. This might become my syn oil test engine once up and running!

Happy Boating Daze!

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Old 03-28-2013, 08:02 AM   #283
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My interest in what Capthead saw has nothing to do with sheen or compression. He saw a 5 degree drop in his coolant temp! I don't think for a minute that he imagined that and that's the thing that interests me most! He read it off a gage! A 5 degree drop means that his engine is running cooler. Mine runs hot (192 degrees) and no pro has been able to tell me why. I'm not interested in cold starts, extending the life of my engine over one that uses Dino or improved compression. If, in fact (and I believe him) his engine temp dropped 5 degrees, he experienced some benefit in running synthetic oil! A benefit that has me very interested.

End of rant.
What does the manufacturer say your coolant temp spec is?

195 sounds right on for any resonably modern diesel.

My 3208 Cats (30 year old design) ran all day long at 195 and were happy.

Some of the newer Cats I've run were happy at 200-205.
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Old 03-28-2013, 08:59 AM   #284
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Walt. You've got us all agog now. We can't wait to hear what happens to the running temp when you go synthetic. I'm sure it won't cause any harm, especially as you engine is so near new. Better take before and after pics of the gauge readings, or no-one will believe it if a change happens.
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Old 03-28-2013, 09:22 AM   #285
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I've been doing yard work. I'm trying to make a better garden spot and each year I get better at it. This year it's a raised box. Now that's over...

I'm back.

I don't know what to say about the sheen that I haven't already said. I'm trying to figure out why it's less and all I can think is it must be better compression. I also think because dino oil didn't have that same compression the blow by caused it to break down faster.

I have two engineers in my family. Both are brother-in-laws. I guess my sisters were engineer magnets.

One worked for NASA and did some Skunk Works which he is tight lipped about. The other was (he died) a chemical engineer was head chemist at Phillips Petroleum. He was classified genius. He spent hours telling me about synthetic oil back in the early 70's and was not happy Phillips didn't make it.

The thing I can say, and please don't take this personal, engineers can't be sold or told anything that is out of their box of learning. They have to come on it totally on their own. If they don't think it, won't happen.

Just saying....
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Old 03-28-2013, 09:59 AM   #286
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The thing I can say, and please don't take this personal, engineers can't be sold or told anything that is out of their box of learning.
OK, so what educational background, hands on detailed experience and field of expertise do you bring to the synthetic oil discussion applicable to the 21st century body of knowledge for diesel engine oils?
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Old 03-28-2013, 10:21 AM   #287
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Walt,
I agree w psneeld. 190 degrees coolant temp is normal and good. My willy's Mitsu runs at 190 and has the original thermostat. It's always run 190 and when I start my engine, adjust the throttle to 1100rpm, in 3 or 4 minutes it's temp is 185. Why would you think a modern diesel should run cooler?
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Old 03-28-2013, 10:42 AM   #288
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I'm sure more than one twin engine boat owner out there somewhere has already done a side by side comparison but so far none has posted here.
That would be something worth reading.
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Old 03-28-2013, 10:50 AM   #289
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[QUOTE=sunchaser;145296]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capthead View Post
The thing I can say, and please don't take this personal, engineers can't be sold or told anything that is out of their box of learning. /QUOTE]

OK, so what educational background, hands on detailed experience and field of expertise do you bring to the synthetic oil discussion applicable to the 21st century body of knowledge for diesel engine oils?
I'm simply a boater that changed over to synthetic oil in a 29 year old boat and against the advice from every person on the forum I was on at the time. I was told it would destroy my engines. It would open up seals and cause leaks. I was told it would clean out carbon that was there for a good reason and without that carbon it would lose compression. I was told a lot of other negative information.

I was never told anything positive. That seems to still run true here.
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Old 03-28-2013, 11:30 AM   #290
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Capp,
That GB group is probably a very conservative group. This is a very conservative group also despite some examples the stick out (way out) so you probably breached the syn oil thing in the wrong place again but at least here nobody said terrible things would happen. I've tried to steer this thread in an objective direction and so have a few others but feelings and unscientific observations are still driving the thread. Fortunately either product will provide 100% satisfactory performance if recommendations from manufacturers are followed. I've been known to go astray on that one myself and don't recall suffering from it either. However don't take that as a recommendation.
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Old 03-28-2013, 11:40 AM   #291
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Capthead,

Forget about this Oil fuss. You're happy with synthetic oil and others are happy with with their oil. Everyone is happy.

Now what I've been wanting to get from you, and this might require a separate thread is your secret varnish formula that lasts 10 years in the socal sun. I'm sure many here would be very interested. I remember it from the GB forum.
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Old 03-28-2013, 11:40 AM   #292
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Better take before and after pics of the gauge readings, or no-one will believe it if a change happens.
Peter, rest assured I will do that. I will take photos of the engines rpm, coolant temp, sea water temp, (all in one photo) before and after the oil change. I'm planning to take a witness along also to confirm what I'm seeing. As to no one believing it....I could care less.
As others have posted, 192 degrees is no big deal. Some of their engines run at 195 degrees. The specs on my engine allow temps up to 203 degrees while I know others who have the same make & model engine, run in the mid 180s. Why? I don't think synthetic oil is going to wreck my engine and I'm certainly not destitute (financially) so why not try the synthetic and just see what happens. If it results in lower coolant temps, great! We all learned something! If it doesn't provide some meaningful benefits that are quantifiable (measured in some way) then we all have learned that as well. It's a win, win, either way.
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Old 03-28-2013, 11:51 AM   #293
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Starting a new thread on Varnish
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Old 03-28-2013, 01:21 PM   #294
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Regarding the original post "Any Synthetic Oil Users Here?"

I use Shell Rotella T6 Full-Synthetic in my Yanmar 4JH3E. The PO used it and left a supply on board. I continued using it. The engine is about 12 years old and has about 1,600 hours total time. I just noticed (yea, not too observant) that Rotella T6 was a 5W40 oil and became concerned it might be too thin. I checked the owner's manual where I found Yanmar recommends CD rated single-viscosity oils of 10W through 30W, and multi-viscosity oils of 5W20 through 20W40, depending upon operating air temperatures. It seems that a 5W40 is well within the recommended range, and is a full-synthetic as well.

How is it working for me? The engine starts instantly, hot or cold. At the recommended oil change interval of 150 hours, the oil still looks new, crystal clear, new. It uses about 1/2 pint between oil changes. The engine operating temperature is never above 80C (175F) and the fuel consumption is miserly to say the least. There are no visible oil leaks. In summary, I am very pleased. Does it have anything to do with the oil I am using? I don't know because I don't have anything to compare it to.

Just to be sure, I called Laborde Products (the Yanmar distributor for the Gulf Coast) who confirmed that Rotella T6 was entirely suitable for use in the Yanmar. They were somewhat amused at the oil change interval I (and we pleasure boaters in general) used. I was told they routinely operate commercial diesels 'many' thousands of hours between oil changes, particularly with modern synthetic lubricants. They change oil filters every 250 hours and use regular oil analysis to guide them as to when to change the actual lubricating oil. I mentioned I was only following the book, but they were still amused. Laborde supplies and services many of the commercial and offshore oil and gas concerns in the Gulf, as well as Navy and Coast Guard. I feel that I can trust their opinions and advice, at least as it relates to Yanmar marine power.

Armed with my new information, I am going to extend my oil change interval to a whopping 300 hours, with a filter change every 150 hours. I will begin oil analysis with each oil change and track any changes. Risky business? I doubt it. I could probably push it out to 1,000 hours, but oil is still relatively cheap and I will sleep better. No reason to tempt fate with one engine and no oars!


It should be painfully obvious that I have too much time on my hands . . . . .
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Old 03-28-2013, 04:03 PM   #295
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Wonderful report Larry. I'm amazed your oil is "clear". I think mine is black and gets that way quickly. Since I expect it I really don't pay much attention to it. I'm kind of a gear head so it seems a bit out of character. I've used straight weight Dello since new (8 years) and I change the filter every third change and change about every 60 hours ... sometimes longer.

That Yanmar is a very good engine from what I've heard. My previous boat had a 3HM35F. Revved it's little heart out and started instantly when cold. I was considering the JH when I repowered but thought it too much power and I avoided the 40hp Yanmar because it was a 3 cylinder. I like my little Mitsubishi a lot ... smooth and fairly quiet. There are several Willards w the JH engine.
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Old 03-28-2013, 04:45 PM   #296
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Eric,

When I say the oil is clear, I mean amber or honey-colored. Rotella T6 is a little darker than some other oils I have used, but it is definitely still clean and transparent when changed at 150 hours. The rockers are visible from the oil cap and still look shiny and new. I suspect the properties of that oil and the size and quality of the oil filter, combined with a clean-burning diesel are the reasons for this. Or maybe a boat gremlin is changing my oil when I'm not looking . . . .

In contrast, I have had Volvo and Perkins diesels in other boats where the oil was black within minutes of an oil change. Like you, I have used Delo 400 30W for decades. I still use it in the Kohler generator.

Finally, as for the 4JH in a Willard/Fales 30, it is a bit over-powered, high-revving and plenty loud, but I am very pleased with Yanmar power. Any reservations I may have had initially are completely gone. I hope with proper care and operation, it will continue to be reliable and relatively trouble-free. I'm sure that Mitsubishi of yours will last a couple of generations. They are very smooooth . . . and, yes, quiet . . .

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Old 03-28-2013, 08:27 PM   #297
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The Yanmar 4 JH series engine is a very efficient Diesel, Its high compression and has very high fuel injection pressures compared to a 120 ford, The JH Yanmars were some of the first to comply to the European air standards for Diesels, I have sold , repaired and rebuilt many JHs and they are a thing of beauty if you like that kinda thing... But they will sometimes fuel sheen thru the exhaust also. Some very valid reasons for exhaust sheen have already been posted like , head temp, injector pattern, compression, ring seal but there are more. Almost all diesels with mechanical fuel pumps start at wide open throttle ,it does not make a difference where the throttle lever position is, Once the engine starts or exceeds a curtain RPM the governor takes over and brings the RPM back to the throttle position speed, This puts a lot of fuel in the cylinder and provides a very rich fuel mixture causing exhaust sheen, Another reason is how many cranks before it starts, that can put out a real mess on slow to start cold Diesels, Most Diesels are very inefficient at real slow or idle speed, Most diesels have a fixed timing for fuel injection < unlike gas engines which rely on variable spark timing > lets take a Ford 120 for example, I think the fuel timing starts at around 20 degrees before top dead center , That injection timing is real good @ 1600 rpm where the engine makes its most torque but bad @ idle, Ever wonder why a Diesel is so loud and clunky @ idle and smooths out and quiets down with some RPM, Diesel fuel burns @ a constant rate so to get a engine to burn the fuel @ the proper crank angle where it will make power you have to start the burn early before top dead center to match the burn rate of diesel fuel, Well what happens @ idle? At idle the 20 degrees before TDC is too early to start the burn rate so there is pressure building as the piston is still on its way up, That's the main reasons not to idle a diesel, they are just not too happy fighting that expanding fuel pressure and they are very inefficient at that point not burning the fuel completely. Some modern diesels can vary the injection timing allowing for improved efficiency. Sorry for the engine babble I know it has nothing to do with oil but I couldn't help it
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Old 03-28-2013, 10:19 PM   #298
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Craig S,
I've wondered about timing for a long time so your post was very well received here Craig. I had assumed the timing must be fixed as there's no provision for variation. I have assumed the timing was/is perfect for full power at rated rpm just like ignition timing is optimal there for a gas engine.
I noticed my older 6 cyl Nissan Maxima diesel was VERY noisy w little load but got a lot quieter w my foot in it.
It seems to me that a centrifugal advance mechanism shouldn't be too hard to build.
What kind of timing does the electronically controlled engine have?
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Old 03-28-2013, 10:42 PM   #299
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Craig S,
I've wondered about timing for a long time so your post was very well received here Craig. I had assumed the timing must be fixed as there's no provision for variation. I have assumed the timing was/is perfect for full power at rated rpm just like ignition timing is optimal there for a gas engine.
I noticed my older 6 cyl Nissan Maxima diesel was VERY noisy w little load but got a lot quieter w my foot in it.
It seems to me that a centrifugal advance mechanism shouldn't be too hard to build.
What kind of timing does the electronically controlled engine have?

The new diesels are computer controlled every thing now , They are very efficient, Some mechanical pump diesels have variable timing, Bosh has been building variable pumps for a wile, they are found mostly on higher RPM Diesels, One of the big plus points on variable fuel timing is the rotating assembly can be made lighter for more RPM and they don't have to work against the negative effect of too early of a fuel burn from older designs.
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Old 03-28-2013, 11:22 PM   #300
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The Yanmar 4 JH series engine is a very efficient Diesel, Its high compression and has very high fuel injection pressures compared to a 120 ford, The JH Yanmars were some of the first to comply to the European air standards for Diesels, I have sold , repaired and rebuilt many JHs and they are a thing of beauty if you like that kinda thing... But they will sometimes fuel sheen thru the exhaust also. Some very valid reasons for exhaust sheen have already been posted like , head temp, injector pattern, compression, ring seal but there are more. Almost all diesels with mechanical fuel pumps start at wide open throttle ,it does not make a difference where the throttle lever position is, Once the engine starts or exceeds a curtain RPM the governor takes over and brings the RPM back to the throttle position speed, This puts a lot of fuel in the cylinder and provides a very rich fuel mixture causing exhaust sheen, Another reason is how many cranks before it starts, that can put out a real mess on slow to start cold Diesels, Most Diesels are very inefficient at real slow or idle speed, Most diesels have a fixed timing for fuel injection < unlike gas engines which rely on variable spark timing > lets take a Ford 120 for example, I think the fuel timing starts at around 20 degrees before top dead center , That injection timing is real good @ 1600 rpm where the engine makes its most torque but bad @ idle, Ever wonder why a Diesel is so loud and clunky @ idle and smooths out and quiets down with some RPM, Diesel fuel burns @ a constant rate so to get a engine to burn the fuel @ the proper crank angle where it will make power you have to start the burn early before top dead center to match the burn rate of diesel fuel, Well what happens @ idle? At idle the 20 degrees before TDC is too early to start the burn rate so there is pressure building as the piston is still on its way up, That's the main reasons not to idle a diesel, they are just not too happy fighting that expanding fuel pressure and they are very inefficient at that point not burning the fuel completely. Some modern diesels can vary the injection timing allowing for improved efficiency. Sorry for the engine babble I know it has nothing to do with oil but I couldn't help it
Thanks Craig - for clear diesel info!

Although I'm currently a gasser I was diesel many yrears ago and still occasionally look at maybe purchasing a diesel boat again. MOF: I'm now chatting on one that has twin 1979 Volvo diesels, 6 cyl 124 hp.... w/ approx 1,100 hrs since new. Been sitting for bout 3 or 4 yrs since started. Local volvo dealer HELMUT'S MARINE SERIVCE, Volvo Penta Power Center, San Rafael, California (well respected owner/mechanic and shop that's been in biz for years) says correctly cleaned and lubed to restart these two should be no problem. And, he feels he can get nearly any part needed via OEM or secondary market. You have any opinion you'd like to share regarding these Volvo?

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