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Old 03-25-2013, 06:16 AM   #201
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1. Capthead, yours is the first avatar I`ve seen featuring a painting. Quite inventive, is there a story behind it?

2. What is "synthetic" oil made from? I seem to remember (from the last outing for this subject) it was modified real oil, but memory can be lousy. And I`ve seen some auto oils described as "semi- synthetic". Anyone know?
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Old 03-25-2013, 06:21 AM   #202
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many comercials have switched to synthetics for gearbox applications.

For engines where you have to remove it and toss it due to combustion products...it doen't justify itself.

The main kicker is there isn't enogh "proof" out there that the "claims" of syn oil actually lengthen the life of a motor enough to justify it's expense. If there was a cost analysis would convince companies to do so.

Syn oils ARE used where their properites are clearly superior.

If I remember correctly the USCG HH65A helicopters had a helluva time with dino oil coking in the turbine bearings upon shutdown. Too much heat still after the flow had stopped. After switching to a miracle synthetic and changing shutdon procedures...the problem was minimalized.

Problem...soluton...but without KNOWN failures caused by dino oil...and changing requirements based on pollutants that synthetics can't totally overcome...the ave a difficult task of becoming more popular.
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Old 03-25-2013, 07:05 AM   #203
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The main kicker is there isn't enogh "proof" out there that the "claims" of syn oil actually lengthen the life of a motor enough to justify it's expense. If there was a cost analysis would convince companies to do so.

In the OTR trucking industry they have done enough testing to use synthetic as it increases the fuel mileage , and reduces oil changes enough to pay the extra cost.

Big difference between 200,000 miles a year and 200 hours tho.

The loss of internal rust resistance of syn is enough to steer me clear.
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Old 03-25-2013, 09:20 AM   #204
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BruceK, There is an artist that was commissioned to do an oil painting for a magazine cover and he wanted to paint a Grand Banks. He was in a marina several marinas away from mine. One day he came walking down the dock and asked if I would let him paint my boat. Of course I said yes, and that's how it happened. I saw the painting and took a picture of it and when the magazine came out I got several copies and kept the cover.

The original painting had 1/4 more sky above where I cropped it for the banner heading.

That is the LA Light behind in the picture.
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Old 03-25-2013, 11:47 AM   #205
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I have a brother in the oil business and he said synthetic is like liquid polyethylene which is what Mobile 1 is - basically.

I'm not sure he's right, but Mobil calls it PAO. polyalphaolefin (PAO) Group IV base stocks, some of which are used for automotive synthetic motor oils.
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Old 03-25-2013, 12:28 PM   #206
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The main kicker is there isn't enogh "proof" out there that the "claims" of syn oil actually lengthen the life of a motor enough to justify it's expense. If there was a cost analysis would convince companies to do so.

In the OTR trucking industry they have done enough testing to use synthetic as it increases the fuel mileage , and reduces oil changes enough to pay the extra cost.

Big difference between 200,000 miles a year and 200 hours tho.

The loss of internal rust resistance of syn is enough to steer me clear.
"The loss of internal rust resistance of syn is enough to steer me clear."

Very Valid Point, Fred. Thanks, I'd forgotten about reading that item!

So... due to that point alone, and with my engines at times spending up to a couple or three months un used, syn oil is simply not for my boat. Will stick to high grade dino oil! – Case-Closed for me, unless syn can incorporate rust preventative that works at least as well as dino. Then I'll revisit opportunity for synthetic oil use and what it may offer for improvements over dino oil.
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Old 03-25-2013, 12:45 PM   #207
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Please show me testing to prove, loss of internal rust resistance of syn
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Old 03-25-2013, 01:11 PM   #208
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Please show me testing to prove, loss of internal rust resistance of syn
Not sure Capt - But, I believe the reference I recall was in this thread?? May even be in the l-o-n-g 1970's article you linked and I completely read. But... like FF mentioned about internal rusting capable with syn oil, and the fact that I'd read it before (somewhere), I'd need proof that syn oil could prevent rust good as dino oil before I'd use in any engine that would or may remain unused for periods of time.

BTW – I agree with others... Great pict/painting of your boat!
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Old 03-25-2013, 01:28 PM   #209
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1. Capthead, yours is the first avatar I`ve seen featuring a painting. Quite inventive, is there a story behind it?


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Old 03-25-2013, 01:31 PM   #210
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I do know the synthetic has a long chain molecule as all reports show that and one end is a magnet and when it coats the metal block, it sticks there so I have to be shown that corrosion could happen. I know I get rust on anything I sprayed with WD40 after a small amount of time. That doesn't last.

The middle of that chain is a strong binder and the end is super slick. That is the makeup of a synthetic oil molecule.

I know everybody is saying longevity isn't proven, but the bare fact that the Lincoln engine Ford tore down with 100,000 miles on it still had visible hone marks in the cylinder walls and didn't show more than the 500 miles on dino oil, that speaks to me. I don't know why others can't see that as a positive.

Anyway, thanks on the pic comment. It's been fun talking oil with everybody. Soon it will be cruising weather and we can get some use out of our boats.

I have to tear off the teak deck this year and replace it. I'm going back with epoxy over glass cloth covered ply and painted non skid. No More Teak.

Then I can burn some fuel.
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Old 03-25-2013, 03:01 PM   #211
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I know everybody is saying longevity isn't proven, but the bare fact that the Lincoln engine Ford tore down with 100,000 miles on it still had visible hone marks in the cylinder walls and didn't show more than the 500 miles on dino oil, that speaks to me. I don't know why others can't see that as a positive.
That spoke to me too Capthead; and, I semi-recall of hearing/reading about that same type of quote - back in the day!

What I don't understand: If that was true back in the 70's, and syn oil improvements have been made since - WHY is there not a plethora of engineering and successful accountings of syn oil usage in all forms of periodicals, on the net, on YouTube, touted by motor manufacturers and on and on and on. Guess what I'm saying is if synthetic oil is such a great improvement over dino oil why is that fact not plastered all over the place?? Is there (are there) some "hidden" down side(s) simply not spoken of (besides initial product expense - which equalizes out once extrapolated alongside other long-term costs that are clamed reduced by using syn oil)?

I'd love to use a new type of oil that increases (maybe doubles/triples) the life of my classic, flat tappet gassers, however, there is just not enough engineered proof and product accountability yet available to make me turn away from high quality dino oil and 4oz ZPPD zinc additive I include at each oil change (can zinc be added to syn oil?). The Lincoln owner in 1970's article and some private boat/land-vehicle users/owners are the accountings I read. Basically - Where's the Beef?? I.e., officially documented and proven blind test studies worked with a myriad of participating engine types under the pressure of myriad different circumstances. I need use-proven laboratory reports before I take the chance with my classic engines. To hear it from users... in their opinion syn oil should rule the world of lubrication. From a post earlier in this thread syn oil only holds 6% of U.S. market with just 30% of that 6% for commercial use. The numbers just don’t add up after 4 + decades of syn oil in existence. Again, Where’s The Beef??
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Old 03-25-2013, 03:16 PM   #212
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That is a quality question. I wish I had an answer.
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Old 03-25-2013, 03:21 PM   #213
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A quick side bar note;
A boater a few slips away from me in the late 90's worked at the Union 76 refinery that's a few miles from my marina. One day we were talking and he said his biggest customer was WD40. He said they bought all their oil from him and it was their regular 10W lubricating oil. He said they added the perfume to give it that smell and canned it. He said their legal depart net spent 100's of grand yearly chasing after companies worldwide that tried to copy that smell. He said they were always successful but the main ingredient was the oil he sold them.
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Old 03-25-2013, 04:23 PM   #214
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WD-40's formula is a trade secret. The product is not patented, to avoid completely disclosing its ingredients.[3][6] WD-40's main ingredients, according to U.S. Material Safety Data Sheet information, are:WD-40 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 03-25-2013, 04:42 PM   #215
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Why isn't price good enough?


Assuming that I don't die of a million other things before I even reach 95...

So is it gonna matter what I drink????/
absolutely! Can there be life without beer?????........
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Old 03-25-2013, 04:54 PM   #216
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15+% mineral oil (light lubricating oil)

Mineral oil, as you know, is dino oil. It comes from the ground in a layer of mineral rock.
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Old 03-25-2013, 05:01 PM   #217
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That spoke to me too Capthead; and, I semi-recall of hearing/reading about that same type of quote - back in the day!

What I don't understand: If that was true back in the 70's, and syn oil improvements have been made since - WHY is there not a plethora of engineering and successful accountings of syn oil usage in all forms of periodicals, on the net, on YouTube, touted by motor manufacturers and on and on and on. Guess what I'm saying is if synthetic oil is such a great improvement over dino oil why is that fact not plastered all over the place?? Is there (are there) some "hidden" down side(s) simply not spoken of (besides initial product expense - which equalizes out once extrapolated alongside other long-term costs that are clamed reduced by using syn oil)?

I'd love to use a new type of oil that increases (maybe doubles/triples) the life of my classic, flat tappet gassers, however, there is just not enough engineered proof and product accountability yet available to make me turn away from high quality dino oil and 4oz ZPPD zinc additive I include at each oil change (can zinc be added to syn oil?). The Lincoln owner in 1970's article and some private boat/land-vehicle users/owners are the accountings I read. Basically - Where's the Beef?? I.e., officially documented and proven blind test studies worked with a myriad of participating engine types under the pressure of myriad different circumstances. I need use-proven laboratory reports before I take the chance with my classic engines. To hear it from users... in their opinion syn oil should rule the world of lubrication. From a post earlier in this thread syn oil only holds 6% of U.S. market with just 30% of that 6% for commercial use. The numbers just don’t add up after 4 + decades of syn oil in existence. Again, Where’s The Beef??
well as a matter of fact I had in my possession records from a trucking company that was listed on the new York stock exchange that switched over part of there fleet to test syn oils. They used syn in all the transmissions gear cases as well as the engine. All I remember is that mechanical repairs went to almost zero in the test fleet and service costs went down due to lengthened service intervals for transmissions and differentials. The company then switched the whole fleet and the first year saved enough money the to buy several new trucks.
But like someone mentioned the engines in our boat are likely to last longer than we are with regular service with any quality oil, not just syn. I personally wouldn't use any oil that wasn't syn 100%

Gonna look for that old testimonial from the above trucking company and will post it if I can find it. However I'm not sure the data would mean anything if applied to old flat tappet engines as they are built with far greater tolerences than modern engines like our lehmans
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Old 03-25-2013, 05:04 PM   #218
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I do know the synthetic has a long chain molecule as all reports show that and one end is a magnet and when it coats the metal block, it sticks there ...........
I guess it wouldn't work on aluminum ?

I have a hard time thinking of oil as being magnetic.
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Old 03-25-2013, 05:07 PM   #219
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absolutely! Can there be life without beer?????........
I was forced to give up alcohol for medical reasons. There certainly can be life without beer. Pretty good life actually.
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Old 03-25-2013, 05:23 PM   #220
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well as a matter of fact I had in my possession records from a trucking company that was listed on the new York stock exchange that switched over part of there fleet to test syn oils. They used syn in all the transmissions gear cases as well as the engine. All I remember is that mechanical repairs went to almost zero in the test fleet and service costs went down due to lengthened service intervals for transmissions and differentials. The company then switched the whole fleet and the first year saved enough money the to buy several new trucks.
But like someone mentioned the engines in our boat are likely to last longer than we are with regular service with any quality oil, not just syn. I personally wouldn't use any oil that wasn't syn 100%

Gonna look for that old testimonial from the above trucking company and will post it if I can find it. However I'm not sure the data would mean anything if applied to old flat tappet engines as they are built with far greater tolerences than modern engines like our lehmans
I hope you do find the testimonial/records from trucking co. I'd like to read it.

Wonder why if that trucking company had such great success with syn oil that syn oil use didn't spread like wildfire throughout the trucking industry?? They just keeping it quiet so $$ savings stayed in their favor... ??

What year are your Lehmans? My classic gassers run from 1967 to approx 1989, all with flat tappets (non roller bearing lifters)
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