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Old 07-02-2014, 12:53 PM   #41
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Two-component urethanes should be sprayed on and that's why you don't ever see it except for factory finishes.
Sorry, not true. I have brushed 2 part polys many times in the past. And 2 part polys are brushed on all the time on large yachts. Most all of the yards in the Ft. Lauderdale and Miami area do it, as do any of the marinas that handle large yachts elsewhere. Plus the many independent varnish subcontractors that service large yachts.

Now things like fighting chairs that can be removed from the boat will go to a shop and into a spray booth. But things like rails that obviously can not come off the boat will get brushed.
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Old 07-02-2014, 01:24 PM   #42
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Pine tar.
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Old 07-02-2014, 01:40 PM   #43
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Or I'm thinking...call a shrink wrap manufacturer and see if they can give me gloss on one side and sticky on the other...

Peel, sick, heat, done for a year or two....
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Old 07-02-2014, 02:01 PM   #44
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Xsbank,
Peter Culler wrote in his book "Skiffs and Schooners" that people wondered how his white paint jobs looked so white. He said he put pine tar in the paint. Pine tar is usually or always black.

What does your comment "Pine tar" address? That we should use just pine tar? That we should add it as Culler did? Or .......
It's readily available.
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Old 07-02-2014, 07:37 PM   #45
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Lot of folks just shun the teak look and paint it. Reading threads like this make me so happy that deal I had on a GB36 fell apart. I would have been hating that boat about now.
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Old 07-02-2014, 08:00 PM   #46
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Lot of folks just shun the teak look and paint it. ......
Just before I left Seabrook, Tx., I had 2 marina neighbors on my pier paint some of the teak white. And it was for the most common reason - way too much work every year to maintain the wood.
The varnished wood look is beautiful but for some it is a lot of work. I don't have that much wood so it is not a big deal. Right now it's only about 3 half days a year's work.
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Old 07-02-2014, 08:19 PM   #47
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Just before I left Seabrook, Tx., I had 2 marina neighbors on my pier paint some of the teak white. And it was for the most common reason - way too much work every year to maintain the wood.
The varnished wood look is beautiful but for some it is a lot of work. I don't have that much wood so it is not a big deal. Right now it's only about 3 half days a year's work.
You and me both Tony, just enough wood to make her look pretty but not so much as to qualify me as any kind of wood finish expert. Our marina has loads of wood boats in great shape, plenty of eye candy without having to over-indulge myself.
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Old 07-02-2014, 08:21 PM   #48
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"This is "The Real Stuff" 100% Natural: Authentic Pine Tar also referred as Stockholm Tar is a pure, natural wood preservative made in Sweden from natural pine resin. Pine Tar has been used since ancient times for creating a water repellent vapor barrier on wood and rope and for its gentle antiseptic effect. Pine Tar is used for wood preservation on utility and fence poles, cottages, splint roofs, boats et cetera. Pine Tar is a more effective wood preservative and a safer substitute for pressure treated wood. Works well even for preserving wood used underground. Use this recipe to thin Pine Tar with Purified Organic linseed oil to obtain faster penetration and avoid stickiness. Apply warm if possible. Note: do not apply on skin."
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Old 07-02-2014, 08:24 PM   #49
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You guys should read that website I posted on page 2 if you want natural products that are user friendly. I had great luck with the paints and varnishes I used. I have never used pine tar but there are many colours and you can paint your ropes with it(!).
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Old 07-02-2014, 08:40 PM   #50
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I've got teak hand rails (top rails), cap rails, side handrails, window frames, FB/house trim and, the big one, three doors. My top-, cap- and hand rails look good and I plan to keep them that way. My window frames are starting to need attention and I'm considering painting them white. My doors are in dire need of attention, but I keep kicking the can down the road, not wanting to start that big project. Odds are that I'll probably do them just before I sell so I won't have to do them again and the buyer gets everything in great shape.

An alternative to varnish? What do you want your boat to look like? Maybe doing nothing is an alternative and oil or staining is another option. I've yet to see anything that looks as good as a quality varnish job on teak. IMO, all the others are lesser choices. I guess it depends on the time (or money) you have and the look you want. If the look is not important and time/money is limited, there are many choices besides varnish. If you want the varnish look without varnish, your choices narrow significantly.
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Old 07-02-2014, 09:51 PM   #51
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The work required to maintain a varnish finish is grossly exaggerated except for the initial cleaning and prepping of a degenerated finish.
Once the original finish had been compromised and then poorly maintained, it is in the stage of decomposition. In order to save your wood from total decomposition, you can either apply a bandage or perform surgery. The bandage would be the many varieties of oils that don't perform like they claim they do and the wood keeps deteriorating and you keep adding more oil throughout the year. Or you could put on a good finish of varnish or 2-component urethane. The real hard work is the preparation. That involves scraping all of the old crap, oxidation and rot off and getting down to good clean wood. Which is what you should be doing even if you were just applying oils. After the prepping, applying varnish is just a matter of masking and painting. When down to bare wood, you will need 6 to 8 coats the first year. After the first year, all it should take is a washing, light sanding and apply the varnish in 4 coats. That's it! that's all there is to it until next year.
If you get a chip or ding, paint on some varnish. Use cheap throw-away brushes for this kind of touch-up. For the real application, you should go to a quality paint store and buy a good varnish brush, probably around $25 to $30 and it will last for many many years.

Varnish is not just for looks - it is for mostly for protection. Again, walk the docks and look at the condition of the wood under varnished boats and compare to the condition of oiled wood.

Nothing good is easy and replacing wood can get costly.

Oh and one more thing for you northerners - Rain and foul weather does NOT deteriorate varnish, only UV does. So, you should probably get away with a re-varnish every other year while us southerners must do it every year.

Wanna hear a joke? This is a direct quote from realmilkpaint.com under their "Our Guarantee" section from their 100% Pure Tung Oil. "Quality is long enjoyed while a cheap price is long endured" This is from the guy selling you 100% pure tung oil for only $45.99 a GALLON. That's pretty cheap for a finish.
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Old 07-03-2014, 12:08 AM   #52
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Xsbank,
Thanks for the reminder. I looked at the link and then forgot about it. Chris is the head painting lass so I'll show it to her. Sure sounds good to me though but I'm a bit of a pushover.

The've got so many variations of the product a bit of studying is required. I prefer studying to sanding, scraping or burning old varnish. In our rush to embrace polly thisand that and epoxy we tend to forget about the old time tested things that are user friendly.

They talk a lot about penetration of oil and not of adhesion. And one of their products soaks into wood over a long period of time.
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Old 07-03-2014, 01:19 AM   #53
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Traditional varnishes are in fact a form of oil finish. Okay, well oil and resin, or both. It's sort of basic and complicated at the same time. What I think you should take away is the concepts of remaining solids, what's going to be left behind and the notion of curing. If a varnish contains drying oils (such as tung or linseed), along with light spirits to act as solvent. We'll to get right to it, is it not obvious right from the get go that there was something to be gained from not just using the base products directly?

Take even modern formulations of a teak oil, an ingredient list not too far from varnish itself. Often the resin may not be there but the drying oil typically is. Just to show how complicated some of these basics get, if you just use teak oil on exposed wood, if the moisture is right you get black wood when the fungus food turns it to mold and mildew. Yet, this is fundamentally a mixture of many if the same components in a varnish that helps protect from the same outcome. In another bit of irony, take the old monkey see tale that purports that teak is too oily to take a varnish. It's funny to me because I use teak oil as my prep coat on teak getting ready for varnish. Very similar ingredients, yet they act in very different ways based on their proportions and how and when they are incorporated.

The bottom line is this, you have to use all theses components in the right way to get the best outcome. If you try to use nothing but a drying oil, it often does not cure or bond as well, sometimes resulting in a soft finish that is not durable. Use the same thing in a lighter formula and you get penetration, but low solids and the micro organisms just use it for lunch.

I'm not a chemist, but I do understand enough to know there are no shortcuts and plenty of folks looking to separate you from your money. Often, they sell good product, it's just the results they fib on. Modern varnishes have a lot more in the can than just oil, resin and solvent, but the principles are still there. Thin enough to penetrate, enough solids to leave something durable behind and a combination of products that will actually cure into a finish.

If you go down the road of trying to take a shortcut by just using one of the components in the can, figure you are on the learning curve somewhere back before the invention of varnish.
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Old 07-03-2014, 02:02 AM   #54
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In my mind, varnish is an interior finish. Its not meant to protect against rain and sun.
My alternative to exterior varnish is white paint. Top rails, cockpit door, cockpit window frames are all painted.
I have plenty enough interior wood to look after.
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Old 07-03-2014, 07:27 AM   #55
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[QUOTE=ghost;247049]Traditional varnishes are in fact a form of oil finish. Okay, well oil and resin, or both. It's sort of basic and complicated at the same time. What I think you should take away is the concepts of remaining solids, what's going to be left behind and the notion of curing. If a varnish contains drying oils (such as tung or linseed), along with light spirits to act as solvent. We'll to get right to it, is it not obvious right from the get go that there was something to be gained from not just using the base products directly?

Take even modern formulations of a teak oil, an ingredient list not too far from varnish itself. Often the resin may not be there but the drying oil typically is. Just to show how complicated some of these basics get, if you just use teak oil on exposed wood, if the moisture is right you get black wood when the fungus food turns it to mold and mildew. Yet, this is fundamentally a mixture of many if the same components in a varnish that helps protect from the same outcome. In another bit of irony, take the old monkey see tale that purports that teak is too oily to take a varnish. It's funny to me because I use teak oil as my prep coat on teak getting ready for varnish. Very similar ingredients, yet they act in very different ways based on their proportions and how and when they are incorporated.

The bottom line is this, you have to use all theses components in the right way to get the best outcome. If you try to use nothing but a drying oil, it often does not cure or bond as well, sometimes resulting in a soft finish that is not durable. Use the same thing in a lighter formula and you get penetration, but low solids and the micro organisms just use it for lunch.

I'm not a chemist, but I do understand enough to know there are no shortcuts and plenty of folks looking to separate you from your money. Often, they sell good product, it's just the results they fib on. Modern varnishes have a lot more in the can than just oil, resin and solvent, but the principles are still there. Thin enough to penetrate, enough solids to leave something durable behind and a combination of products that will actually cure into a finish.

If you go down the road of trying to take a shortcut by just using one of the components in the can, figure you are on the learning curve somewhere back before the invention of varnish.[/QUOTE

1. Best outcome is totally subjective...

2. If applying only part of a more complete system...it's not a shortcut...it's just a lesser part of a complete system. Like many things in life...like buying a less expensive product that you may have to replace sooner...but in the long run it's more cost effective....I see the option of how easy you want to make brightwork as an option...not a shortcut.
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Old 07-03-2014, 11:26 AM   #56
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Ghost,
There's a post to see through the smoke. And I was about to ask that question. If most all other clear (and not) oil finishes including colored paint has a solvent that I think is usually referred to as a vehicle or solvents how come all of a sudden I see a group of finishes that just throws out one of the main ingredients of oil based paint as we know it? It seems all the paint I've ever bought contained a lot of something I really didn't need.

But as the original poster said 100% tung oil works just great but most tung oil isn't pure or contains solvents. Well that makes it paint. And I suspect it will turn black just like my linseed oil did. But probably not as fast because my LO was raw linseed oil. I was in Alaska then and re-oiled every 45 days or so and there was only traces of black around some fasteners. The raw LO worked well (a tad sticky when fresh) in Alaska as I was using it.

I just coated/finished the wood on my utility trailer. I used an oil that I mixed from various sources and products. It was boiled linseed oil, Dalys Seafin teak oil, kerosene and turpentine. All equal parts except less turpentine. Where I slobbered it on the metal parts most of it was dry but some was a little tacky. I was surprised it dried at all and all the oil on the wood was totally dry in 24hrs.
I had to replace two panels of plywood and the rest was weathering. Interestingly the old weathered wood soaked up the oil like a sponge. I used 2.5 gallons of oil on this trailer. The pics were before I oiled the trailer.

Ghost, what is the solvent/vehicle actually for. I had thought previously the solvent was the drying agent but apparently not. And most paint is not applied to porous surfaces so it's not needed for penetration.
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Old 07-03-2014, 11:55 AM   #57
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Many Boat

........I just coated/finished the wood on my utility trailer. I used an oil that I mixed from various sources and products. Ghost, what is the solvent/vehicle actually for. I had thought previously the solvent was the drying agent but apparently not......[/QUOTE]

The vehicle is a binder or adhesive of sorts that makes the solids together.
The solvent is usually a diluter that makes things flow better. When the finish cures, the solvent is all gone. As for your mixture, there is a lot more to chemistry than just throwing stuff in a vat and stirring. There are things called catalysts that are sometimes needed to make two chemicals bind together. The catalyst can sometimes be heat, electricity or an additional chemical that make s the others chemicals work together but when the finished product is done, the catalyst is left behind or not included in the final mix.

This is why 2 different brands of paint will look alike chemically, as to what it's made of but one is far superior to the other. That's because the superior one goes through more and better processes to make the stuff of what it is. As a matter of fact, sometime when you just mix stuff together and it cures (at least you think it does) it may actually separate the chemicals and the finish will look a little cloudy or 'different' over time and the final product will not last long. Woodworkers are famous for this quirk and swear it works when it fact it does not.
There is more to chemistry than meets the eye.
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Old 07-03-2014, 12:09 PM   #58
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Thanks Tony,
I'm having trouble getting around "makes the solids together" But I'm working on it. Is the vehicle and solvent the same thing? Actually not I've run out of time this morning. I feel the need to put it all together. Your post was very helpful.
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Old 07-03-2014, 12:22 PM   #59
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here's some info about tung oil...is it all correct? as far as I can tell from other research it's more correct than much of the info about tung I'm reading here...

https://www.canadianwoodworking.com/...ebunking-myths
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Old 07-03-2014, 12:27 PM   #60
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... Is the vehicle and solvent the same thing? .....
The vehicle, is also called a binder, is what makes all the little solids stick together. In varnish, the little solids would be something like little plastic beads. Without the binder/vehicle, you would end up with dust when the solvent evaporates rather than a solid finish.
The reality of life is that good chemicals and processes don't come cheap.
That's why cheap stuff like Minwax Spar Varnish is a joke in the southern climates. I have seen people brag about it and when I looked at it, it was all crumbling off. Clear coating is expensive initially, but over time, it becomes worth it because it is also preserving your wood.
The prime purpose of a protective coating is No. 1 - to protect the wood. The next is for aesthetics or looks.

The most economical wood protection is paint. It blocks the sun from hitting the wood. If you don't mind paint, that is the way to go. And even then, the better paints cost more than the cheaper ones.
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