1935 65' Wooden Boat Hull Replacement options

[TDunn]

The only good way to restore a wooden hull is to repair the existing hull with new wood. All I can say is go over every inch of the boat inside and out to assess its condition. ALL soft/rotted wood you find will have to be replaced. Planking stock should ideally be clear vertical grain wood. Depending on what wood was used for the original construction, that sort of planking stock can range from expensive to outrageously expensive. If you have reasonable wood working skills you can do the repairs yourself IF you have a place to do them. However, a 65 footer will be built from relatively large bits of wood (minimum 2" thick planking stock, etc.) which can be a bit of a chore to work with.


Beyond the wood, you need to find out how the planks are fastened. In other words (iron boat nails, galvanized boat nails, galvanized screws, bronze screws, copper rivets, etc.) and if the hull was ever refastened. If it has been refastened, you need to find out if the same material as the original fastenings was used. In the worst case you will need to completely refasten the hull below the waterline while removing ALL old fastenings so that the hull below the waterline has only one type of fastening. I suggest bronze wood screws. They will only cost you a couple of bucks each and you will only need 10,000 or so.


Restoring an old wooden boat can be a big job. If you do it yourself you can probably do a good job for under $100,000 exclusive of any work on the drive train. If you hire a restoration done the sky is the limit with a floor in the $500K range. After a complete restoration including rebuilding the engines the boat will be worth maybe $150K.


Just the thoughts of a guy who owns and maintains a 1936 wooden boat (see avatar pic).

 

[Sn0wb0ard24]

I will proceed cautiously with surveys from experts with experience in repairing or rebuilding this type of boat from this boat builder; in order to prepare a realistic budget. I was hoping that someone might have experience with a simple modern method of repairing an old wooden boat hull to last another 20 years. I would be open to anything. Marine plywood, coating of 5200? pressure treated wood? I have a certain obligation to consider all options for this boat. It was originally built for my great grandfather. I am not able to simply walk away without considering all options.

 

[Sn0wb0ard24]

All of the work would be done by experienced professionals. At this point I do not care about "authentic" restoration; but rather utilizing the most modern options available. Stainless screws, modern epoxies, chemically treated wood components, etc. I want the boat to have a solid chance to survive. I understand that there would never be a return on any money spent.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. S. Ah. A family history. THAT changes things considerably but NOT the costs involved, unfortunately. Keep Mr. TD's post (#31) strongly in mind if and when you embark on, at least, a stabilization of her current state.


Do you have a link or any reference where TF members might get a better idea of her current condition and what may be involved? Pictures would help immensely.

 

[Art]

This "Family" boat is wet at the moment; is it not?

Does it run? How long since its last outing?

If it were me... I'd do careful inspection of the hull - see post # 16 [maybe even hire a "knowledgeable in wood" older boat yard worker for assistance].

If it seems worthy - I might get the engine fired up and take a gentle cruise... to feel her bones.

From that point I'd make my decision.

Please realize... there is no correct, fast, inexpensive way to repair/refurbish/restabilize an old wooden hull to get it into good enough condition for seaworthy trips. That said... if it pleases you and if you can get it hauled, you could simply do patch work that makes her sound enough [non leaking enough] as a "Dock Queen" who never leaves the slip. She might last for a couple decades or more that way.
Good Luck!

 

[Pete Meisinger]

This is a fun thread. We NEED pictures and what you intend to pay for the boat. Don't be afraid of anyone sneaking in and taking it from under you, it's pretty obvious any person on this forum is not interested.

If you are young and rich, go for it. If you are old and broke you should know better, or have already attempted an old wooden boat restoration.

Of course everyone is right. There is only one way to properly restore an old plank boat, that is one plank and one rib at a time. When and if you finish it will last one hell of a lot longer than another 20 years.

IMHO the only way to attempt a job like this is to get the boat in your own garage/barn/backyard. It will never be completed if you have to travel to a yard, not to mention the additional expense.

pete

 

[Moonfish]

"The difference between ordeal and adventure is ATTITUDE!"

"Experience is what you get only after you needed it."

- Bob Bitchin

Two great quotes that on the surface may seem somewhat contradictory, both apply in this case. If one keeps the right attitude the entire process can be quite the unparalleled, satisfying adventure.

But experience (other people's wood boat specific, professional experience!) is something you will need to heavily rely on in order to keep your attitude from spiraling into potentially suicidal depression...

 

[tiltrider1]

I still say some one is pulling your leg here. Stainless steel screws in a wood boat? Treated lumber?

 

[Sn0wb0ard24]

I am serious. What is wrong with stainless? Thank you all for your patience.

 

[bayview]

From your questions it seems that you may be inexperienced in dealing with wood boat repair. This is a very big project to learn on. All education is expensive but this more than most.
Reread the post above that tells you that most yards will not haul wood boats these days.

 

[Bob Cofer]

As the owner of an old wooden boat (1926) that is in excellent condition I do have an opinion. Any deferred maintenance is going to be a big issue as it snowballs relentlessly into a huge problem. If you choose to take this on my best advice is to first make a list of priorities and stick to it. The ease in which you can go off on a tangent is amazing and suddenly you end up with a huge mess that will never be completed.

I will enjoy watching your progress regardless of your decision. There is one guy on this forum who has undertaken an even larger project. Take a look at Hendo’s Cray Boat restoration for inspiration.

This is what I get to take care of.

 

[rkymtnsailor]

Consider checking the WoodenBoat Forum

Since you're looking at a wooden boat, the experts are on the WoodenBoat forum. Our YC has an older Richardson that they've provided great input for. Here's the link

http://forum.woodenboat.com/forumdisplay.php?1-Building-Repair


Good luck with your adventure...

 

[HopCar]

I see you are in Miami. Talk to Merrill-Stevens about the project. I think they still have some woodworkers working there. Also talk to Jim Moores at Beaufort Marine. He specializes in restoring old wooden boats. He restored a boat my grandfather’s company built in 1929 a couple of years ago. https://www.beaufortmarine.com/

 

[Art]

Sn0wb0ard ------ Boat PHOTOS - Please!!!

 

[Art]

I see you are in Miami. Talk to Merrill-Stevens about the project. I think they still have some woodworkers working there. Also talk to Jim Moores at Beaufort Marine. He specializes in restoring old wooden boats. He restored a boat my grandfather’s company built in 1929 a couple of years ago. https://www.beaufortmarine.com/

Wow, Parks - Thanks for the beaufortmarine.com link. Great marina/boat-yard.

Very interesting about the horses!

 

[localboy]

This is what I get to take care of.

View attachment 97297

Wow!

 

[O C Diver]

if the structure is sound, what about a west system epoxy repair? I have read about putting 5200 in between layers of wood.

Unfortunately there are a number of people offering advice here on things they have limited or no personal experience with.

Yes, wood boats are covered with West system and 2 or more layers of biaxial cloth. This is not fiberglassing a hull and the adhesion of epoxy to wood is multiple times better.

Type of wood makes a huge difference. A cedar hull in good shape with West System and 2 layers of biaxial cloth will out live you. Many other woods aren't as long lived. It's not uncommon for boats under going this process to have some boards or sections of the hull replaced. This practice is done occasionally at the boatyard I use on Chesapeake bay, mostly on bay work boats. For the size of your vessel, you would likely need to find a yard that handles larger boats.

For yacht quality finish, it will be very expensive. Whether the boat you're looking at is a candidate would depend on its condition and the depth of your pocket. I can't speak to the insurance aspect.

Ted

 

[Benthic2]

Cost of boat = X, Repair of boat = Y, value of boat aferwards = Z

if X+Y<Z, the seller would repair it.

If X+Y >z, you don't want it.

 

[mvweebles]

Amazing restoration (as in full restoration) of a class-racing Herreshoff 1920s boat. Undisclosed owner with an open checkbook who races at NYYC. Has to be over $1m in resto costs by Maine boat builders obviously very skilled in wooden boats.

.
https://youtu.be/oqaSWjtF8PI

 

[koliver]

2 esamples:
first, 1935 woodie, bought in 2001, purchase price ~ $250k, 80' working fishboat. some new planks, some re-fastening. Gutting and total new cabins over 5 yrs, to yacht quality. ~$2m. Present annual cost ~$150k

second, 1944 woodie, ex liveaboard, ex ex military supply boat, also bought in 2001, for ~ $150, 60'. Some new planks, full re-fastening, 1/2 new cabins over 3 yrs, to yacht quality, ~$.5m. present annual cost ~50k

Both of the above love their boats, wouldn't have anything but wood. Both had previous wood project boats, so knew what they were getting. Both old enough they won't do it again.

Hope you have the $. The best will take the $.5m to bring up to yacht quality (that was in 2001, so prices will have changed a bit)

 

[BruceK]

Years ago, the famous Australian boatbuilders, Halvorsen Bros, locally constructed many a hull in clinker form using ply. The exposed edges of the ply eventually become an issue, but plenty of them still float and are as prized by their owners as vintage cars. I recently saw one under repair, replacing ply "planks" like for like, so it can be done.

I have watched a Halvorsen/Island Gypsy 50, built in Asia using meranti timber(not a great choice, looks like teak but it ain`t),under repair after sinking. Huge job, calling for much expertise and $ to replace and repair planking.

 

[Mako]

The OP should give Lepke a ring

 

[Simi 60]

unfortunately there are a number of people offering advice here on things they have limited or no personal experience with.

this ^^^^^^^^^^

 

[Lepke]

I was a shipwright when most boats were wood. The hull needs to be rebuilt/repaired in the same style as built. You can't have part of it planked and another part of the hull plywood. It doesn't work. Planking is flexible, plywood isn't. Any plywood has to be sealed or it separates. Save the plywood for decks and cabins and fiberglass it.

Also stainless doesn't hold up in the absence of air - in other words underwater. Planking screws should be silicone bronze. Stainless is ok well above the waterline. The shafts are probably monel not stainless if they're original.

Another way of saving the hull is to fiberglass over the planking. Make the skin thick enough so it won't crack.

 

[Sailor of Fortune]

for the naysayers, look at Covey Island boatbuilders in Canada....

 

[JLD]

I don't know if this helps, but there is a 1935 74' Fenner & Hood listed on Yachtworld for $499,000 Canadian, that claims to have had a recent refit of more than $2 million!

Jim

 

[Comodave]

I don't know if this helps, but there is a 1935 74' Fenner & Hood listed on Yachtworld for $499,000 Canadian, that claims to have had a recent refit of more than $2 million!

Jim

That was a good return on investment. 4 to 1. Or should I say 1 to 4?

 

[FF]

AS a kid in NY I loved to visit the yards on City Island. Sadly the grand wooden boats were being broken up for their parts. The work to keep them up was too high.

Although I have built GRP boats from scratch , I have always wondered if with a lot of labor these boats could have been renewed.

The concept would be to block the boat on land with shoring to keep the hull upright.

A heavy duty grinder with #16 floor sanding paper could wood the hull .

The lowest plank would be removed , crudely is OK as long as the plank is not broken up, old nail or screw holes are fine.

The removed plank would be laid on a piece of structural foam and copied. It would then be wrapped with a tape of glass cloth , mat or roving , over lapping about 50% or more.

Skewers would be used to install the wrapped new plank to the old ribs or remaining structure, then removed.

This system would be efficient as there would be little waste, the process would be done till the hull is renewed.

Sure there would be many hand layup layers to add to the planking to get a thick enough outer layer as a single skin boat would use., but its all mindless low skill labor, .

The keel area would simply be glassed heavily.

The interior , and the rest of the boat would be as it was when built , the foam core would do as some insulation , heat and noise. The overall hull weight would be about the same .

So far can't see a reason it would Not work to recast a classic that's worth keeping.

This would require modest money , and only very modest skills to complete , but lots of man hours.

It would go fastest in a covered site where weather would not be a factor.

 

[TDunn]

I have a few comments about the "repair" suggestions you and others have made.


1) Any hull repair other than simply replacing planks with new wood must be preceded by replacing ALL rotted/soft wood with new. So why not just do the repairs and leave it at that.


2) Glassing a wooden hull will get you a few more years, but unless you also somehow manage to completely eliminate 100% of deck leaks, the boat WILL rot out from the inside. Furthermore, as noted above it is a HUGE job to fair out a hull that has been glassed. Yes old wooden work boats are sometimes glassed to get another 10 years or so out of them, but after those 10 years the boat is cut up or left to finish rotting out in a yard somewhere.



3) Stainless steel is a good material for some things, but not for screwing planks to a hull below the waterline. Stainless steels are subject to crevice corrosion when put into anoxic environments such as wet planks below the waterline. Consequently, they tend to fail catastrophically without warning. For below the waterline the materials to use are silicon bronze screws, monel screws or copper rivets. However, refastening with those materials requires removing ALL old fasteners or you will have galvanic corrosion.


4) It is possible to cold mold the hull with several layers of veneer (western red cedar is the preferred veneer material) set in epoxy, but like glassing, this requires sound wood as a substrate and eliminating deck leaks. Furthermore, if cold molding is being done to stiffen a weak, flexible, old hull, you will have to essentially build a new cold molded hull around the old hull. Cold molding is very labor intensive and thus quite expensive.


5) The way to repair the hull is to replace bad wood using new wood. You can use some modern materials and methods to improve the hull. For example, you can eliminate butt blocks by epoxy scarfing new planks into sound existing planks. That will stiffen the hull since two planks joined by an epoxy scarf are essentially no one plank and the longer the planks the stiffer the hull. One problem properly repairing an old wooden boat is that the old wood is certainly higher quality wood that is available today. I run into that with every repair I do on my boat since when it was built in 1936 they used old growth Douglas Fir for the planking. That quality of fir simply is no longer available. So I have to pick through the available fir to get the best wood I can, but it is never as good as the old wood.


Finally, any old wooden boat can be restored to as good or better than it was when new. If you want to see what a complete wooden boat restoration looks like, watch this series of videos being made by a fellow near Sequim Washington who is in the process of a full restoration of a 1920s wooden yacht -


https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCg-_lYeV8hBnDSay7nmphUA


He is doing the job right.

 

[Pete Meisinger]

That 73 foot Fenner & Hood has been reduced again by almost half. Looking at the pictures really tells a story. It looks to me like the current owner is having money issues. The boat restoration is fantastic but maintenance in the engine room is shabby. The deck is cluttered. It does not appear the boat gets out of the slip very often. There is clutter everywhere which would end up scattered and broken on the sole in the smallest waves. The present owner seems more interested in showing off his televisions than the navigational equipment.

A boat like this needs to be professionally "staged" to look at its best. This one is not. Beds are poorly made with cheap fabrics, showers and heads are just plain dirty and messy.

My boat is far from perfect! When the Admiral and I want to cruise basically all we do is load a few provisions and untie and get on the water. The boat is always ready. Fluids are always full and everything is secure.

If the original poster wants a big wooden boat he should buy the Fenner & Hood. Otherwise there is the possibility that the expense and time involved in the restoration would cause him to loose interest (or funds)as the owner of the Fenner & Hood has evidently done.

By the way.. Something is just not right with the O.P. Where are the facts about the boat, including pictures ? Why doesn't he say anything about himself ? He could be a Yuppie millionaire or a retired dreamer ? Maybe a scammer. My bet is a B.S. ing dreamer who knows nothing about boats and likes to hear himself boast. If he had the money to embark on a project he is professing, he would already know all the info we have presented to him.

Shove Off !

pete