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Old 06-08-2008, 05:21 AM   #21
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RE: Windlass & anchoring

For the lowest anchor loads , simply use Nylon.

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Old 06-09-2008, 12:28 AM   #22
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RE: Windlass & anchoring

Ken---

You may or may not get an indication that a pulpit is getting ready to go. It will all depend on its construction and leverage involved. Don't forget that strength is not just a factor of the size of the fasteners but is also affected by the leverage the load is able to apply to the fasteners or other components. It's conceivable that one component held with smaller fasteners can carry a higher load than another component held with larger fasteners because of the leverage the load applies to the fasteners via the pulpit or whatever.
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Old 01-08-2009, 04:40 PM   #23
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RE: Windlass & anchoring

hey Marin, what book do you like about anchoring? thanks.

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Old 01-08-2009, 06:17 PM   #24
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RE: Windlass & anchoring

The best book I've seen on the subject is called "The Complete Book of Anchoring and Mooring" by Earl Hinz.
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Old 01-08-2009, 08:39 PM   #25
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RE: Windlass & anchoring

thanks, i don't have that one

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Old 01-09-2009, 03:01 PM   #26
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RE: Windlass & anchoring

I agree with FF on this one .. nylon. I think trawler guys like chain because its heavy. Many trawler owners like thier boats because they are heavy. My father had a wonderful 36' lobsteryacht built of FG with an airex foam core. Dad told the builder to build this and that heavier until the 6-71 could only push the boat 9 knots WOT. Of course he had a big fish boat winch with heavy chain on the bow .. all chain of course. Yachtsmen should know better. Chapman says use a nylon rode with 8 to 10' of chain. There are numerous advantages to all chain but I belive nylon is best. The answer to the following question may shed some light on the popularity of all chain. What do you guys do with a rode of 25' of chain and nylon? What do you do while pulling your anchor when you get to the end of the nylon line and need to swich from pulling nylon line to pulling chain? One shouldn't pull chain with the winch drum .. right? As I see it one would need to take the slack off the rode ahead of the winch and transfer the rode ( where the chain starts ) to the gipsy/wildcat and resume pulling the rode. Since I have enough hair on my chest to pull my rode by hand I don't know what you chain dudes do. Does my theory have anything to do with why you guys like all chain .. and carry 200 to 300' of extra chain and the extra winch power and cost to do it. I can see why you are talking about winches being riped off decks. What .. 100' of heavy chain, a big Bruce anchor, an anchor burried deep ( Bruce anchors do that ) and a guy that breaks his anchor loose with the winch. I have wondered about the cleat on winches but I wonder mostly how you guys make the switch from nylon to chain while raising anchor. Enlighten me or entertain me.

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Old 01-09-2009, 04:05 PM   #27
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RE: Windlass & anchoring

Where do I start? I've had both types over the years, and prefer all chain. You don't have an abrasion problem with chain as you will with Nylon, at either end. You don't need nearly as much to hold you, as the weight of the chain makes a catenary that is more parallel to the anchor and bottom so it holds better. It's easier to let out more chain for more holding power; again you don't need as much. For windy conditions, you put out a Nylon snubber, that gives you the stretch you need. You don't have to switch from chain to Nylon on the windlass when recovering, although that's not a big deal. With a proper windlass and rope to chain splice, that's not a problem.
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Old 01-09-2009, 04:26 PM   #28
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RE: Windlass & anchoring

Hi Eric, We have 2 anchors and rodes on the bow of Sea Eagle. One has 50' of 3/8 G4 chain and 250' of 3/4" 3 strand, the other has 25' of 3/8 G4 and 300' of 3/4" 3 strand. The chain is braided into the 3 three strand. When we are taking up the anchor Paula runs the boat driving up to the anchor, I use the winch to help me pull in the rode and put it in a plastic container and later put it up in the chain locker. When we get to the chain I manhandle it from the rope side to the gypsie side. Of course I am also washing the chain and anchor as they come up because they are full of mud.

If it was all chain I would not have to manhandle it on the winch and I could just run it right into the chain locker. I just don't want all that weight on the front of the boat.
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Old 01-09-2009, 08:08 PM   #29
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Windlass & anchoring

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nomadwilly wrote:

I think trawler guys like chain because its heavy.
Yes, but that's the point.* With all chain you get a big catenary and that helps keep the pull on the anchor low so there is less likelihood of it coming out.* Obviously in a big wind the catenary starts to come out of the chain so the angle of pull moves up higher.* But with a nylon rode, unless you use a kellet, it doesn't take much wind at all*to pull that nylon out straight and move the angle of*pull on the anchor higher.*

150' or 200' or however much chain you have out weighs a hell of a lot--- considerably more than the anchor itself.* So an all-chain rode also*plays a more active role in keeping your boat where you want it than a nylon rode does.

The all chain rode does offer abrasion resistance which is one reason for its great*popularity in the PNW with its often rough or rocky bottoms.* But I know people who use the "standard" combination rode--- anchor, then chain equivelent to the length of their boat attached to that, and then the rest of the rode is nylon--- and so far as I'm aware they've not experienced chafing or wear problems in years or decades*of boating in this area.* So the chafing resistance*rationale may be more of an armchair theory than a real one, but I wouldn't want to say that definitively

Both setups offer advantages.* All-chain seems to be far more popular in this area than combination rodes, and this popularity is not limited to trawlers.* I know a lot of sailboat owners who use all-chain.* However they have boats large enough to deal with the weight.** The owners I know*of smaller sailboats use combination rodes because of the reduced weight.* Same deal with planing boats.* My friend*Carey with the 36' custom lobsterboat*has a rode with about 60' (I think) of chain and the rest nylon.* But his boat*can get up and move at 15 knots or more, so having a bunch of weight in the bow would be detrimental to his boat's trim.***

So as usual with almost everything having to do with boats, there is no one-size-fits-all.* All chain offers, I think, more advantages than disadvantages in this area unless the weight is an issue in a particular boat.* However I'm sure there are other areas*where a combination rode is the better way to go.

Some of the people I have anchored with who use a combination rode simply armstrong the whole works up when they weigh anchor.* They either feel it's faster or their boat (usually sail) doesn't have a windlass.*

The people I've anchored with*who use a combination rode but do have a windlass generally armstrong in the nylon, or have a crewmember motor forward as they haul in the nylon, until the boat is over the anchor.* I would guess the typical anchoring depth in the PNW is about*30 feet.* Yes, I know there are plenty of places where you have to put the anchor down way, way more, but I suspect that 30 feet is about what most people try to shoot for if they can.* We do, anyways.

So when they get the boat up over the anchor, they're probably at or*near the transition from nylon to chain assuming a 30-foot boat or longer.* So when the chain starts coming aboard, they lay it in the wildcat on the windlass and haul the chain and anchor up with that.



-- Edited by Marin at 21:12, 2009-01-09
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Old 01-09-2009, 09:45 PM   #30
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RE: Windlass & anchoring

I keep wondering how the all nylon rode folks would handle anchoring in some of the 10 to 15 fathom depths in British Columbia, don't forget to throw in a 3 fathom tide range plus a couple of fathoms for the bow. Hmmm, at 5:1 thats some 600 feet.* Well at least it won't weigh a heck of a lot.* Nice swing radus too.
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Old 01-10-2009, 04:58 AM   #31
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RE: Windlass & anchoring

The Nylon folks will simply go with 3-1 scope and about 20 ft of chain on the anchor

PLUS!! a rode rider on a seperate line , usually a similar weight to the anchor , but light enough to hand over to recover.

Yes , that's 3 lines in the water , anchor trip buoy , anchor and rode rider . But they seldom get snarled .

Big advantage is the ride is soft /quiet and there in no need to carefully wash/ scrub hundreds of ft of stinking bottom mud off the chain.

The windlass or capstan is ONLY to drag the ground tackle up from the sea floor esp with chain..

The boats engine gets the boat over , and breaks out the anchor.

On deck the break out loads are taken by a chain stopper , as are the usual anchor loads.

THIS -deck chain stopper- is the strong point , not the windlass.

Light nylon 1/4 or 3/8 20ft or more snubbers should tie to bow hawse holes , not over the bow roller . The "best " is to have the snubbers spliced and shakeled to a waterline fitting .


So anchoring say 100ft is let out in 40 ft of water, a SS sail boat snap shakel is snapped to the chain (15 ft long ) and another 20 ft of chain is veered.

Most of the time the light snubber will give a smooth ride , when the chain starts to pull on the deck stopper it gets noisy , and the boat will jerk.

Thats either time to pull in and replace the thin line with thicker , , or veer more chain and reinstall the snubber.

All this is far simpler with nylon , but not in coral.

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Old 01-10-2009, 08:31 AM   #32
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Windlass & anchoring

Our boat's only 26 feet, and it's built heavy, in fact a bit bow-heavy, so we can't handle the weight of all chain.* We cruise the BC and SE Alaska coast, anchoring in 25 to 55 feet and sometimes more.

What works for us is 40' of G4 chain spliced to 300' of New England Ropes 1/2" three-strand, and a 7.5 kg Bruce.* To deal with wear on the splice and the first part of the rope, I reverse and re-splice it roughly once a year, generally cutting off several feet in the process.* The rope lasted eight summers and maybe 350-400 anchorings before it needed replacing.* We like the shock absorption and noiselessness of rope.*

We have a Simpson Lawrence (now Lewmar) Horizon 600 windlass, not by any means an ultra-sturdy unit.* Its gypsy brings in the entire rode, making the transition from rope to chain without assistance more often than not.* In light wind and little or no current, we often use the windlass to bring the boat over to directly above the anchor.* I've been single-handing a lot lately, and this sure makes things simpler.* A small amount of tension and the slight up and down motion of the bow will often break out the anchor with no help from windlass or engine.*

After 500+ nights at anchor in the PNW, in winds greater than 30 knots more than a few times, we have never dragged (after setting the anchor successfully), nor have we ever had any problem with the windlass.* It seems to me that 1.5x a boat length of chain, properly spliced to rope, with regular inspection of the condition of the splice, is a good compromise.

-- Edited by RCook at 09:54, 2009-01-10

-- Edited by RCook at 08:34, 2009-01-11
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Old 01-10-2009, 12:39 PM   #33
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RE: Windlass & anchoring

OK here is another twist in the anchor set ups. When we purchased Penta she still had the original "commercial fish boat" anchoring system. It consisted of a 65# "Forfjord" style anchor, 20 feet of 1/2 inch chain, 20 feet of 3/8 chain all followed by 200 feet of 3/8 gal. wire rope! Believe me that setup stayed where you put it
I soon found that the wire rope was VERY noisy at anchor plus the odd strand was breaking so I replaced it with 300 feet of 1/2 braid. Much quieter. Same chain and anchor!
Penta has what is know locally as an "Annieville" anchor winch that has a drum on it that will accommodate all of this rode and is powered by a surplus DC-3 flap motor that normally ran on 24 volts but now uses 12 volts. Makes it turn at a good speed that is not too fast to keep up with it but still has the power, if the breaker dues not go first, to pull the bow down considerably if the anchor gets fouled. It free wheels down, has a friction break and will dog down on a rachet to hold where you set it. It is bolted thru the deck / deck beams and has two 2X4 oak stringers all with 6 - 1/2 carriage bolts thru for keeping it in place. It will stand the stress of being the only thing securing the anchor although I usually take a couple of turns around the deck cleat to be sure. Around here and up coast where we have done most of our cruising you have to be careful to not get under the old logging cables that are strewn on the bottom of most anchorages here in the PNW.
This set up is definately NOT beautiful to look at but it sure does work!!
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Old 01-10-2009, 12:48 PM   #34
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RE: Windlass & anchoring

Whith hundreds and hundreds of succesful anchorings with nylon*over many years I don't see how anybody can say that an all chain rode is nessessary. In reguard to swinging room chain " seems " better and clearly has a smaller swing radius which*is valuable in waters north of Anacortes. I have seen fish boats anchor for the night by droping a huge Forfjord anchor followed by a lot of very heavy chain and as far as I can tell they are in exactly the same position in the am .. didn't swing at all. Your'e right Marin, the angle of pull on the anchor is more desireable with all chain. Iv'e never used more than 12' of chain and only once have I found myself sit'in on the mud with Sandpipers hop'in around the boat. That was in Seal Cove in Glacier Bay in the 70s. I think if I was caught in a blow off a rocky beach with an engine out chain would look pretty good .. but then it would be so heavy I could have a really really long rode with nylon of the same weight. Perhaps it's easier to just drop a big heavy anchor and chain .. not much skill required.
Mr Spence,
I'm very interested in knowing what exactly you do with the box you put the rode in .. all the rode? .. do you carry it aft .. and stow it where? It's probably similar to what I do. I leave the entire rode in a plastic box on the bow, disconnect the anchor and stow the anchor aft. I prefer not to sleep with the anchor rode and my bow stays light.

Eric Henning*
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Old 01-10-2009, 03:11 PM   #35
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Windlass & anchoring

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:

Whith hundreds and hundreds of succesful anchorings with nylon over many years I don't see how anybody can say that an all chain rode is nessessary.....Perhaps it's easier to just drop a big heavy anchor and chain .. not much skill required.
I don't think an all chain rode is necessary, nor do I think a combination rode is necessary. They both have their advantages and disadvantages, and which one a boater chooses will depend on the conditions he anchors in, what works best on his boat, and what he prefers handling. There may be specific circumstances--- perhaps a sharp coral bottom--- that make one type of rode definitely better than the other type.

We use all-chain because it piles very nicely in the locker with no chance of a loop flopping over and making a "knot" that jams when you next deploy the anchor. It puts more weight on the bottom than a nylon rode. We don't have to deal with hauling in two kinds of rode, or switching from one side of the windlass to the other partway through. It is virtually damage-proof under all the anchoring situations I can anticipate in the area we boat in. Bow weight is not an issue with our boat. Using a snubber and letting out a big loop of chain between the bow pulpit and the snubber plate eliminates all chain noise as the boat swings or tugs on the chain. In crowded or tight anchorages we can shorten up the scope after setting the anchor to a length that I would not trust with a combination rode.

Because of the possibility of hooking sunken logs, chain, or cable in the anchorages in this area that used to contain logging camps, we will use a buoyed trip line on the anchor so we can back it out if it hangs up. But we'd do this regardless of the type of rode we were using.

Our stern anchor and rode are sized to act as the main anchor of the boat if the bottom conditions are better suited for the stern anchor (We put this setup together when we had a Bruce anchor as our main anchor. Now that we've gotten rid of the Bruce the liklihood of using the stern anchor as our main anchor has all but been eliminated.) But the stern rode is a combination rode--- 40 feet of 3/8" chain and a couple hundred feet of the appropriately sized nylon. Like Eric, we keep it in a plastic crate, with a Sunbrella cover my wife made, so we can easily carry it forward and deploy it from the bow if needed.

As to the anchoring skill required, there may be some people who simply dump an anchor and chain rode in a heap on the bottom, but that's not the way we were taught. We lay out our anchor and rode the same way we do with a combination rode and we set the anchor using the same technique.

And that, of course, is the bottom line. It doesn't matter if you use all-chain, wire rope, all nylon, nylon and chain, or woven-together palm fronds. If your anchor stays set and the rode doesn't break, whatever you're using is the right thing to use.



-- Edited by Marin at 16:17, 2009-01-10
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Old 01-10-2009, 04:53 PM   #36
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RE: Windlass & anchoring

Hey Eric,

My anchor rode box, is a plastic clothes basket. When not being used for the anchor rode it is stored under my wifes dirty clothes basket. The main anchor locker has a 4" ID tube about 4' long that goes from the deck to the locker. 3/4" rode being somewhat stiff does not feed into it very well, so when we pull the anchor we put it into the basket and let it dry good then I get down inside the locker and pull the line down into it. The basket is 16 1/2" square by 14" deep. it will hold (stacked) about 100' of line plus the 50' of chain. One reason I decided on the clothes basket was because of all the ventilation holes in it that help the rode dry.

My anchors stay on the bow, that makes it easier for anchoring in the Bahamas, where you frequently use 2 anchors in a "Bahamian Mooring". I keep a third achor rode and smaller anchor in the lazarette I recently got it for a stern anchor.
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Old 01-12-2009, 04:56 PM   #37
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RE: Windlass & anchoring

Jim,

Thanks for the explaination on anchoring. The only thing I'm still wondering about is do you pull the rode down into the locker by yourself or*does someone feed the line down to you? See the picture of us on the bow .. we are almost sitting on the anchor box. I pull the anchor rode and pile it in the box ( 5/8" nylon " Brait " ) including the 10' of 3/8" chain. The*Brait is 350' long. I take the anchor off the chain and stow it aft.
*Marin and Jim,
If you have trouble with the stiffness of 3 strand use Brait. 5/8 Brait costs about $1.65 a foot .. not cheap but it's performance piling and unpiling or comming up out of a chain locker is seamless .. always*without a hitch.

Eric Henning*
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Old 01-12-2009, 05:18 PM   #38
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Windlass & anchoring

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Jim,*
*Marin and Jim,
If you have trouble with the stiffness of 3 strand use Brait. 5/8 Brait costs about $1.65 a foot .. not cheap but it's performance piling and unpiling or comming up out of a chain locker is seamless .. always*without a hitch.
You're right about braid, and we use it for all our mooring lines partly for that reason.* However I have never seen it recommended for use in an anchor rode.* I'm not saying it wouldn't work, just that I've never seen it recommended and I've never seen anyone who uses a nylon rode use braided line.* For one thing, I don't believe braid has as much stretch or shock absorbing capabilities as three strand.

But the stiffness of three-strand isn't an issue to me, it's line in general's tendency as it piles up like in an anchor locker to slide around on itself and before you know it a loop has fallen down inside another loop and when you start to pull the rode back out again you have a knot.* Chain can do this too, but it doesn't seem to, at least not in our experience.* Maybe the links tend to hold the pyramid in place....


-- Edited by Marin at 18:18, 2009-01-12
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Old 01-12-2009, 07:12 PM   #39
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RE: Windlass & anchoring

I think he's using Brait line from Yale Cordage. http://www.quickline.us/yaleCordage.asp

I have all chain, no problem with weight in the bow of my boat, it's not noisy, it's easier to clean than 3 strand (never used Brait so I can't speak to that) it holds just fine and I don't care what someone thinks of my "skill" in anchoring. As long as I hold I don't care.

I've only had one boat threaten to damage my boat because they were dragging anchor. Yes, they were "skilled" boaters using 3 strand nylon rode. Fortunately I was still awake and was able to get fenders down, snare their boat properly to get it to lay alongside, raft them to us, use my winch to haul their anchor and listen to them bitch about me rafting to them when they came back from the Bluebird. I offered to untie them if they wanted me to. There were a couple of other boats that had watched the entire event and I was pretty sure that the true story wouldn't be hard to prove.

All the other times, except one the dragging boat was going to miss me and my anchor. The other exciting time was a bump in the night. I got up and went out, fended off the dragger and went to check my line to see that it was secure from the tides action. By the time I got back to the stern the other boat was headed to deep water with no lights on........ I still wonder what they thought when they woke up miles from where they anchored.

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Old 01-13-2009, 04:32 AM   #40
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RE: Windlass & anchoring

." In reguard to swinging room chain " seems " better and clearly has a smaller swing radius which is valuable in"

In the NE , "Right" coast cruising the water is fairly shallow but can get really busy on weekends .

The Bahama , two anchor set takes almost zero effort and keeps the boat within a few ft of initial set location.

On out 33ft 90/90MS a 12H Danforth , on LUCY the 50 ft lobster style a 20H Danforth is all it takes.

EZ to sleep at night, even in a reversing river.

BTW we never put the nylon anchor rode below. It is simply coiled in a big figure 8 and ready for instant deployment , from the foredeck. With lots of room its never in the way . doesn't smell "low tide" below decks , and can not fail to deploy properly..

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