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Old 09-04-2019, 03:53 AM   #1
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Water Hammer

Hello
Our 44ft Island Gypsy has multiple water tanks that we use daily for our water with a pump and a small Accumulator/Pressure tank. The system ran dry a couple weeks ago and since then we have had a racket in the plumbing. Sounds like water hammer to me. It only starts making noise once you shut off the water and the pump is building pressure in the tank.
Ive tried bleeding the faucets but no dice.
I opened up every water faucet and the showers then shut off the pump. I let the water run out then turned the pump back on. I then tried shutting off the faucets in order from closest to pump to furthest and vice versa . Still making noise. It's hard to tell which water fixture is closest to the pump because its located in the engine room right under the Galley sink which is separated by a wall from the Aft Master head w shower & Sink.
The sound moves around but tends to stay aft closer to the pump/tank.
Getting frustrated with it.
Would installing a Water Arrestor (sp?) help?
Any ideas?

Adam
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Old 09-04-2019, 05:15 AM   #2
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Have you measured the pressure in your accumulator tank? It typically should be a pound or two below the cut-in pressure for your pump. Speaking of which , what is that set at? What kind of pump is it?
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Old 09-04-2019, 05:38 AM   #3
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Sounds like the accumulator tank has failed.

When the FW pump shuts off , switch it off , and open a faucet to see how much water is in the accumulator , if any.
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Old 09-04-2019, 06:21 AM   #4
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As mentioned, with all the pressure out of the system, check the accumulator tank pressure. Then turn on the pump. Close all the cold water faucets first. Then turn the pump off and let the pressure reach zero. Then turn it back on and wait a few seconds and close the hot water faucets. Some times getting as much air out of the water heater as possible, can be tricky.

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Old 09-04-2019, 10:29 AM   #5
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I'll try to get in there this PM to get more info. I think it is a Sureflow pump. It seems like the bladder on the tank is ok because I do get water for 30 secs or so with good pressure without the pump on.

A
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Old 09-05-2019, 04:16 AM   #6
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Well, another hour spent turning water on/ off w no results...yay!
Here is a little more info..
The tank at rest w no water is 20 PSI.
With water it is right around 60 PSI.
All my faucets except one do not have seperate Cold/Hot handles. They have a single handle with the mixing valve where you turn right for hot and left for cold. I tried the best I could to flush the cold then the hot but there is no way to do it 100%.
I get good flow w pump off for about 20 seconds.
Not sure where to go from here. Seems like there is air in the system and it moves around depending on which fixture I'm using but I can't seem to flush it out.

Fyi
The system tends to cycle with no water being used about once an hour. It seems to be mostly in the evening but it could just be me noticing it then. The previous owner said it has always done that and if the cycling gets to be too frequent then the tank may be low on PSI/Air? To me this means water is getting out somewhere and I've checked for leaking faucets but nothing.

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Old 09-05-2019, 06:13 AM   #7
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"The tank at rest w no water is 20 PSI."


It should be a couple of pounds less than the cut ON pressure.
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Old 09-05-2019, 07:25 AM   #8
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If it cycles there is a slow leak somewhere north of the pump. Fix that first.
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Old 09-05-2019, 09:54 AM   #9
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Do you have an ice maker in the fw circuit? If so, it could be the cause of the random pump cycling.

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Old 09-05-2019, 11:31 PM   #10
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Im guessing the pump has a built in pressure switch?

Best way to test cut in/off pressure?

Bildge is dry. Not sure where water would be going but it definitely cycles.

Anyone hear of using a water hammer arrestor like would be used in a house?

I have not tried flushing the heads as part of my bleeding the system. Not sure if the plumbing running to the 2 heads could be holding air.

A
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Old 09-05-2019, 11:32 PM   #11
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Oh..and No Ice maker aboard
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Old 09-06-2019, 02:45 AM   #12
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Water Hammer

Itís possible to loose pressure back through the non return valve at the pump. This could explain the pump cycling with no use and no leaks but not the air in the system. Some times it can be tricky to get the air out as obviously it likes to try to stay a the highest point. If you have any obvious high points (that you suspect maybe trapping air) it is sometimes helpful to crack a fitting at this high point with pressure in the system to expel the air (and get a free shower).
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Old 09-06-2019, 05:43 AM   #13
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Any air in the system would tend to cure water hammer , air is compressible liquid is not.
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Old 09-06-2019, 05:49 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrawlerTribe View Post
Im guessing the pump has a built in pressure switch?

Best way to test cut in/off pressure?

Bildge is dry. Not sure where water would be going but it definitely cycles.

Anyone hear of using a water hammer arrestor like would be used in a house?

I have not tried flushing the heads as part of my bleeding the system. Not sure if the plumbing running to the 2 heads could be holding air.

A
Find the leak
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Old 09-06-2019, 02:34 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FF View Post
Any air in the system would tend to cure water hammer , air is compressible liquid is not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeJay View Post
Itís possible to loose pressure back through the non return valve at the pump. This could explain the pump cycling with no use and no leaks but not the air in the system. Some times it can be tricky to get the air out as obviously it likes to try to stay a the highest point. If you have any obvious high points (that you suspect maybe trapping air) it is sometimes helpful to crack a fitting at this high point with pressure in the system to expel the air (and get a free shower).
I thought entrapped Air was the cause of water hammer ....not the cure.

Beejay-
Non return valve?
Are you saying I could be losing primed water back into my water tanks (source water) and that would cause the cycling but not show a leak or allow air to enter the system?
Would a check valve help?
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Old 09-08-2019, 07:49 AM   #16
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I thought entrapped Air was the cause of water hammer ....not the cure.

Beejay-
Non return valve?
Are you saying I could be losing primed water back into my water tanks (source water) and that would cause the cycling but not show a leak or allow air to enter the system?
Would a check valve help?


Yes, it can sometimes be a problem. You can check if it is happening. Once the system is primed with all the faucets etc. closed, remove the power from the pump. Then remove and plug the inlet hose feeding the pump. (Hopefully you have a valve in this line). You say that you get a volume of water out of the faucets when the pump off. If you have a non return valve issue this water will leak back out of the pump inlet (over the time it usually takes for the pump to cycle). If this is the case then, yes, another check valve should make a difference. But it would be best to investigate whatís up with the valve in the pump 1st.
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Old 09-18-2019, 11:25 AM   #17
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I'm still listening to lots of noise!
The water hammer noise seems to move around the Aft water fixtures but stays mainly by the Master shower and Galley sink which are in close proximity. It seemed louder than normal a week ago so I went in the engine room with the water running and the Hot water heater is making a very loud pipe banging noise when you close the faucet and the pump is trying to pressurize the expansion tank. I shut off the valve feeding the HWH and the noise stopped. I turned off the power to the HWH and left the feed valve closed and the water hammer noises from the Galley and Master shower were barely audible but after an hour or so the noise came back. I turned the HWH back on and it is still really loud too.
I called Raritan about the water heater but they had no ideas. He said people install water Hammer Arestors. I tried opening the Pressure relief valve on the HWH into the bildge and the noise goes away until you close the pressure relief valve. Then it returns.

I also noticed I have a trickle of water coming into the bildge from the stern somewhere. Seems like freshwater. I need to inspect all my tanks I guess?

Hoping to fix this before my pipes burst.....
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Old 09-18-2019, 02:12 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrawlerTribe View Post
I'm still listening to lots of noise!
The water hammer noise seems to move around the Aft water fixtures but stays mainly by the Master shower and Galley sink which are in close proximity. It seemed louder than normal a week ago so I went in the engine room with the water running and the Hot water heater is making a very loud pipe banging noise when you close the faucet and the pump is trying to pressurize the expansion tank. I shut off the valve feeding the HWH and the noise stopped. I turned off the power to the HWH and left the feed valve closed and the water hammer noises from the Galley and Master shower were barely audible but after an hour or so the noise came back. I turned the HWH back on and it is still really loud too.
I called Raritan about the water heater but they had no ideas. He said people install water Hammer Arestors. I tried opening the Pressure relief valve on the HWH into the bildge and the noise goes away until you close the pressure relief valve. Then it returns.

I also noticed I have a trickle of water coming into the bildge from the stern somewhere. Seems like freshwater. I need to inspect all my tanks I guess?

Hoping to fix this before my pipes burst.....

When you open the pressure valve you are reliving the pressure and the noise goes away. This sounds like air trapped in the top of the water heater tank or it's getting to much pressure.


I don't think you'll have a pipe rupture unless the plumbing is shoddy.


Is the piping, or tubing mounted solidly? It shouldn't be mounted in a way to limit expansion and contraction with temp changes. This can cause noise but it usually only happens with metal plumbing such as copper or galvanized pipe.
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Old 09-18-2019, 06:00 PM   #19
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Ben2go..
I think you are onto something..
It seems like air is trapped in the HWH. Any ideas on how to remove? Not sure how I go about draining the HWH. It's all Copper pipe.
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Old 09-18-2019, 06:14 PM   #20
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I doubt it is due to air in the hot water tank. The biggest problem I see from air in the hotwater tank is the danger of overheating the electric elements if they are ever exposed. Actually air in the tank would act similar to how an accumulator tank works. i.e. When the water pressure goes up the air compresses when reduces the "hammer" effect.

Assuming what you are hearing is a pulse of noise when the water pressure rapidly expands due to the pump coming on (note: many pumps put out pulses of water rather then a continuous flow), or a sudden shut off of a faucet then my guess is that either your accumulator has lost its air or one of your copper pipes have come loose and it is "jumping around" when the pressure changes.
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