Stupid PO Tricks
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FF
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>I could think of whole lot of other things to do.<
As could anyone ,
BUT the existing electrical system was a great target for modification by the PO , so knowing what is there is always good.
Cleaning after 20-40 years in use keeps the reliability up.
As could anyone ,
BUT the existing electrical system was a great target for modification by the PO , so knowing what is there is always good.
Cleaning after 20-40 years in use keeps the reliability up.
psneeld
Guru
Not sure I understand this comment.....
I can see...and have seen a lot of bad wiring...just curious where/how someone could make this one dangerous as they are tied together on electrical panels only a couple feet from the shore power inlets.
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Just when you think you've chased every stupid PO trick in an old boat, another surfaces.
My fishfinder was intermittent a few weeks ago, then finally died. It acted like a bad on/off switch. I brought it home to troubleshoot it and it worked perfectly. Back to the boat yesterday to check the wiring. I was getting 3V intermittently at the wires, so I knew I had a wiring problem. It didn't take long before I found this gem of a splice buried in a wire bundle near the forward ER door.
As I peeled back more electrical tape, I found the ground was stripped about 1 1/2 inches in each direction, then gently twisted and taped together. I've seen bag ties on bread bags more securely twisted! Faced with the choice of using butt connectors here and retaining the old wire, then replace the wire later or just do it all right now, I chose to just ****-can the old wire and start new with all new 12AWG wire and terminal connectors. An hour later, the job was done right. Whew!
It's an old Furuno fishfinder, but it works well when it has electrical power. Replacing it would have been at least a $2-3000 cost since the "while I'm at it" rule would have kicked in. A new NEMA2000 and WIFI networked fishfinder/chartplotter could have been too easy to justify in my own mind.
So I'm pleased that the fix was limited to time and effort with tools and supplies onboard. No haulout for a new transducer, no big ticket items and little grief. I'm relieved!
My fishfinder was intermittent a few weeks ago, then finally died. It acted like a bad on/off switch. I brought it home to troubleshoot it and it worked perfectly. Back to the boat yesterday to check the wiring. I was getting 3V intermittently at the wires, so I knew I had a wiring problem. It didn't take long before I found this gem of a splice buried in a wire bundle near the forward ER door.
As I peeled back more electrical tape, I found the ground was stripped about 1 1/2 inches in each direction, then gently twisted and taped together. I've seen bag ties on bread bags more securely twisted! Faced with the choice of using butt connectors here and retaining the old wire, then replace the wire later or just do it all right now, I chose to just ****-can the old wire and start new with all new 12AWG wire and terminal connectors. An hour later, the job was done right. Whew!
It's an old Furuno fishfinder, but it works well when it has electrical power. Replacing it would have been at least a $2-3000 cost since the "while I'm at it" rule would have kicked in. A new NEMA2000 and WIFI networked fishfinder/chartplotter could have been too easy to justify in my own mind.
So I'm pleased that the fix was limited to time and effort with tools and supplies onboard. No haulout for a new transducer, no big ticket items and little grief. I'm relieved!
Not sure which part you are referring to ... ground/neutral bond ? If this is the case I suggest you google "electric shock drowning" or watch the heart rending youtube video of Kevin Ritz explaining what killed his son.
ben2go
Guru
I have seen that video and also read reports written on this incident.Absolutely no puns intended,but it is shocking at how easy and how little it takes to unknowingly cause this kind of an accident.I have learned a lot from reading up on this subject,in hopes that I can avoid my family or myself becoming another statistic.It also makes me wonder how many people have drowned due to this and the real cause was never known.
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You just reminded me of one of the biggest PO issues I had. A neutral - ground jumper on the shore-inverter-generator control switch that could not be seen without a mirror! That was very hard to find. Before we did find it I had up to 15A returning via the water, so very lucky the boat was not in fresh water near any swimmers.
The PO was a car dealer who could patch up stuff himself in an OK kinda DIY way. But the biggest issues on board were mostly electrical and arose from the PO using one of his caryard 'fixers' as his boat maintenance guy. No doubt the work was paid for under the caryard's expenses so seemed like a good idea, but this guy would have stuffed a car's electrical system, which is a lot more simple than a boat. He wasn't any good at plumbing either. He should have only turned wrenches.....
psneeld
Guru
This is what was stated by Boatpoker
3 out of 10 boats with two shore power inlets have joined neutrals...
I'm not sure what that means....
Are the neutrals tied together at the shore power inlets ? (most likely 2 30 A inlets) or are they tied together at 2 random buss bars? Or are they tied together at the main panel?
Or are we talking they are tied to something other than a neutral buss bar?
3 out of 10 boats with two shore power inlets have joined neutrals...
I'm not sure what that means....
Are the neutrals tied together at the shore power inlets ? (most likely 2 30 A inlets) or are they tied together at 2 random buss bars? Or are they tied together at the main panel?
Or are we talking they are tied to something other than a neutral buss bar?
They are often joined at the panel. This means if you turn off one service thinking you are working on dead conductors ... you are wrong and electrocution can result. Or if you have a short on one service, the other service can now be carrying up to 60amps instead of 30, this can melt things very quickly.
psneeld
Guru
OK I see that now...and I finally caught it in the video...THANKS!!
Thinking it through and studying some wiring diagrams ...I see now they aren't tied together in the factory panels I have been looking at. (I thought I had seen where they were and it didn't register at first)
I guess it also wasn't fully registering because of using a 50A 125/250 splitter that was joining the neutrals in the splitter. I still have to think that one through and I'm guessing it has to do with the 2 -30 A services being "out of phase" or whatever they truly call it.
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FF
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I guess it also wasn't fully registering because of using a 50A 125/250 splitter that was joining the neutrals in the splitter.
Joining the neutrals is fine , its joining the green ground line to the white neutral line that is a No No .
Joining the neutrals is fine , its joining the green ground line to the white neutral line that is a No No .
psneeld
Guru
FF...not according to ABYC. I think it's a stretch but I can see their 1000% safety rule.
A little more coffee and I'll start thinking about the "Y" cord again and why it's different or if it's not ABYC "OK".
A little more coffee and I'll start thinking about the "Y" cord again and why it's different or if it's not ABYC "OK".
grahamdouglass
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Whats missing in this thread?
The one thing missing in this thread is that all these "stupid PO tricks" were present WHEN YOU BOUGHT THE BOAT. This comes down to spending a little more money, spending a little more time and getting a competent survey and prehaps an additional electrical survey with an ABYC qualified marine electrician BEFORE you buy the boat.
Mind you, I didn't get the surveyor I wanted at the time so I went with the one that was available, and I didn't do an electrical survey till I had an electrician to do some upgrades AFTER I BOUGHT THE BOAT. So I had some "stupid PO issues I had to have sorted out.
The one thing missing in this thread is that all these "stupid PO tricks" were present WHEN YOU BOUGHT THE BOAT. This comes down to spending a little more money, spending a little more time and getting a competent survey and prehaps an additional electrical survey with an ABYC qualified marine electrician BEFORE you buy the boat.
Mind you, I didn't get the surveyor I wanted at the time so I went with the one that was available, and I didn't do an electrical survey till I had an electrician to do some upgrades AFTER I BOUGHT THE BOAT. So I had some "stupid PO issues I had to have sorted out.
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My surveyor pointed out some of the wiring issues that needed to be sorted out over time, especially the wires-to-nowhere that I'm sure many 30+ year old boats have. The PO even told me that he was not very adept at electrical work.
I knew I'd have some issues when I bought the boat, but was willing to accept that at the agreed-upon purchase price. One non-functioning bilge pump and an inop nav light were the obvious problems and easily resolved. The bilge pump wiring was a sign of things to come with twisted wires in a wire nut under electrical tape. Others were hidden behind the fridge and in the middle of wire bundles that didn't surface until many years later. No doubt there are still a few surprises lurking in the deepest, darkest corners of my boat.
I've never heard of anyone getting a separate pre-purchase 'electrical survey'. Is that common in your area?
I knew I'd have some issues when I bought the boat, but was willing to accept that at the agreed-upon purchase price. One non-functioning bilge pump and an inop nav light were the obvious problems and easily resolved. The bilge pump wiring was a sign of things to come with twisted wires in a wire nut under electrical tape. Others were hidden behind the fridge and in the middle of wire bundles that didn't surface until many years later. No doubt there are still a few surprises lurking in the deepest, darkest corners of my boat.
I've never heard of anyone getting a separate pre-purchase 'electrical survey'. Is that common in your area?
grahamdouglass
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pre purchase electrical survey
The pre purchase electrical survey was suggested by my electrician, after the fact, when he was surveying the work he was about to do when he upgraded the boat shortly after I purchased it. Pre purchase electrical surveys are pretty rare if never done. Mechanical surveys are more common.
A new AC panel was added and all the wiring from the alternator to the new batteries through to the new inverter was done. 7 years latter I have never had an electrical problem, although it is time for new golf carts. I hear Trojan 105's are the Trawler forum favourite.
The pre purchase electrical survey was suggested by my electrician, after the fact, when he was surveying the work he was about to do when he upgraded the boat shortly after I purchased it. Pre purchase electrical surveys are pretty rare if never done. Mechanical surveys are more common.
A new AC panel was added and all the wiring from the alternator to the new batteries through to the new inverter was done. 7 years latter I have never had an electrical problem, although it is time for new golf carts. I hear Trojan 105's are the Trawler forum favourite.
