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Old 03-02-2013, 11:41 PM   #1
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Stabilizers: Amsteel rope to replace wire/chain

Hi Guys,

In a recent thread some comments were made about the vibrations and sounds that chain, wires and ropes creates when used for the stabilizers fish and rigging.

I thought about this and came to think of the Amsteel Blue rope that I bought for my deck winch and the more I think about it the more I believe that Amsteel will be able to solve these problems + solve other problems like the chain scratching the poles, the wind noise from the wires in the rig, less weight, easily replaceable, higher breaking strength, floating line and no back slash if breaking....

Has anyone used the Amsteel for this application - are there any drawbacks, pro's or cons?

Winch Line, Rope, ATV winch lines, Recovery ropes, Kinetic recovery rope, Snatch ropes, Amsteel Blue

Amsteel Blue OK-ABB316 ATV Winch Rope 3/16 in. x 50 ft. : Amazon.com : Automotive
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Old 03-03-2013, 04:14 AM   #2
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I take it this is Spectra, which is what I will be using on my new paravanes when fitted.
6mm dia 1600 kg break load (1/4 " and 3520 lb)
or dyneema.
From my ttake the spectra is dyneema with an outer cover.
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Benn
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Old 03-03-2013, 07:25 AM   #3
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yes, probably the same as spectra - so how does it work?
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Old 03-03-2013, 07:34 AM   #4
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Spectra is great. The one thing that has to be watched carefully with these type of lines is chafe. I you have them made with thimbles on both ends, you should be good to go.
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Old 03-03-2013, 04:19 PM   #5
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here is an section from Wikipedia re Spectra/Dyneema

Dyneema and Spectra are lightweight high-strength oriented-strand gel spun through a spinneret. They have yield strengths as high as 2.4 GPa (350,000 psi) and specific gravity as low as 0.97 (for Dyneema SK75).[9] High-strength steels have comparable yield strengths, and low-carbon steels have yield strengths much lower (around 0.5 GPa). Since steel has a specific gravity of roughly 7.8, this gives strength-to-weight ratios for these materials in a range from 8 to 15 times higher than steel. Strength-to-weight ratios for Dyneema are about 40% higher than for aramid.
UHMWPE fibers are used in armor, in particular, personal armor and on occasion as vehicle armor, cut-resistant gloves, bow strings, climbing equipment, fishing line, spear lines for spearguns, high-performance sails, suspension lines on sport parachutes and paragliders, rigging in yachting, kites, and kites lines for kites sports. Spectra is also used as a high-end wakeboard line.
For personal armor, the fibers are, in general, aligned and bonded into sheets, which are then layered at various angles to give the resulting composite material strength in all directions.[10][11] Recently developed additions to the US Military's Interceptor body armor, designed to offer arm and leg protection, are said to utilize a form of Spectra or Dyneema fabric.[12] Dyneema provides puncture resistance to protective clothing in the sport of fencing.
Spun UHMWPE fibers excel as fishing line, as they have less stretch, are more abrasion-resistant, and are thinner than traditional monofilament line.
In climbing, cord and webbing made of combinations of UHMWPE and nylon yarn have gained popularity for their low weight and bulk, though, unlike their nylon counterparts, they exhibit very low elasticity, making them unsuitable for limiting forces in a fall. Also, low elasticity translates to low toughness. The fiber's very high lubricity leads to poor knot-holding ability, and has led to the recommendation to use the triple fisherman's knot rather than the traditional double fisherman's knot in 6mm UHMWPE core cord to avoid a particular failure mechanism of the double fisherman's, where first the sheath fails at the knot, then the core slips through.[13][14]
Owing to its low density, ships' hawsers and cables can be made from the fibre, and float on sea water. "Spectra Wires" as they are called in the towboat community are commonly used for face wires as a lighter alternative to steel wires.
It is used in skis and snowboards, often in combination with carbon fiber, reinforcing the fiberglass composite material, adding stiffness and improving its flex characteristics. The UHMWPE is often used as the base layer, which contacts the snow, and includes abrasives to absorb and retain wax.
It is also used in lifting applications for manufacturing low weight, and heavy duty lifting slings . Due to its extreme abrasion resistance it is also used as an excellent corner protection for synthetic lifting slings.
High-performance lines (such as backstays) for sailing and parasailing are made of UHMWPE, due to their low stretch, high strength, and low weight.[15]
Dyneema was used for the 30-kilometre space tether in the ESA/Russian Young Engineers' Satellite 2 of September, 2007.

On the tugs I work on we use Spectra tow lines, harbour tugs 60/80 tonne bolllard pull.
Not the anchor handlers etc I previously worked on. Although we did use Spectra lines on some of these used in static towing of FPSOs.

Not easy to splice but can be done but easier to get a pro shop to do what is required.
Cheers
Benn
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Old 03-09-2013, 09:38 AM   #6
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There is a version of the AmsteelBlue called Recovery rope, which has 30% elasticity.

Obviously, this elasticity would reduce "jerks" in the stabilizer poles and also reduce the immediate stabilizing effect.

Would it be better to have the elasticity in the system or to use the rigid Amsteel / Dynema / Spectra?
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Old 03-09-2013, 10:05 AM   #7
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See next
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Old 03-09-2013, 10:12 AM   #8
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[QUOTE="funangler;140349"]I have been debating on switch my forward and back line that hold my arms in position to Amsteel. I tired some double brad last year instead of cable did not like the stretch in the line. The arms would move back a few inches with this when surfing in the waves. i notice a lost in roll reduction when this happens. If I have the fish into deep a bow Develops in the chain This also reduces my roll reduction. I don't think you want any stretch in you paravane setup. The main concern I have is cutting through that line and losing a paravane they are kind of expensive and you need a match set. The other problem that I worry about is that line is so strong in a 1/4 inch diameter the paravane may not break off and snap my arms or mast. I would have to build a weak link in the setup. I suspect I will order a small section and play with it when spring comes around I post my thoughts.
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Old 03-09-2013, 11:20 AM   #9
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Thanks All,

I look forward to your discoveries. I am planning on installing a paravane system on my 42' Kadey Krogen this summer or fall.
Also, I'm in the Northeast, NYC area, so is anyone knows a good person to get this work done on a fiberglass boat, I'd appreciate the heads up.

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Old 03-09-2013, 07:13 PM   #10
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Thanks for that observation.

That means that the "above water" lines should be rigid Amsteel - but how about the one holding the fish - should that one be flexible (Recovery Rope)?

The previous owner of "Jenny" - a Nordhaven 46 - used small go-cart tires in this line to reduce the "jerks" , noise and vibration. My boat will be very salty looking but go-cart tires would be a step too far......
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Old 03-09-2013, 07:29 PM   #11
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Just about all the fishermen use chain in SE Alaska. One of the most important things is to run the fish deep enough so they won't come fly'in out of the water and right through the wheelhouse window in the nasty weather.
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Old 03-09-2013, 09:02 PM   #12
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I place a 1/4 rubber pad between the boat and the arm hinge this calmed all the vibration. My engine at 1600 rpm would setup a very scary harmonic imbalance in them and shake them about 1 inch in the middle. When I run my standard paravane I don't think I would want any stretch in the line the whole load is under tension.
I know at anchor if I switch to door style flopper stopper this could use some shock Absorption. The boat rolling back and forth will complete unload one side at a time. The fish paravane dive quicker then the doors they do ok with slack lines. I rarely run the doors because of this It shakes the rigging to much.
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Old 03-09-2013, 09:25 PM   #13
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Paravanes

Interesting topic,

I ran S.S. cable on Volunteer for the foreguy, and the top lift to the mast. Yacht braid as a back haul. The P.O. had experimented with chain, switching to cable for the in the water section from the fish to above the water line with a 6' or so section of three strand with eye splices as a shock absorber. The P.O thought the chain vibrated too much and caused too much drag causing the fish to trail too far aft. Every once in a while in the right conditions the s.s. wire would develop a harmonic to it. The chain would be easier to handle and stow in a smaller space than the cable.. the cable was tough on the hands on retrieval. As mentioned run them deep but too short to ever get to the prop if the boat gets sideways in a seaway. Nordhavn uses chain from the poles to the fish.
HOLLYWOOD
As a side note I really liked the paravanes and they worked very well.
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Old 03-10-2013, 12:13 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by funangler View Post
I place a 1/4 rubber pad between the boat and the arm hinge this calmed all the vibration. My engine at 1600 rpm would setup a very scary harmonic imbalance in them and shake them about 1 inch in the middle. When I run my standard paravane I don't think I would want any stretch in the line the whole load is under tension.
I know at anchor if I switch to door style flopper stopper this could use some shock Absorption. The boat rolling back and forth will complete unload one side at a time. The fish paravane dive quicker then the doors they do ok with slack lines. I rarely run the doors because of this It shakes the rigging to much.
The rubber pads seems like a good and cheap way to reduce the transfer of vibrations to the hull. Any special type of rubber, like very hard, medium hard or other types?

Are the hull hinges moving (say a few milimeters) or are the bolts tight enough to keep this from happening?

Is there any movement in the Will look more into this.
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Old 03-10-2013, 01:16 PM   #15
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Similar to Hollywood, we have SS wire for the fore-guy and the topping lift to the a-frame/mast. We have no back haul. We have 8 feet of 1/2" 3 strand from the top of the pole to a swivel then to wire and then 4' of chain. We have little if no harmonics. The chain helps on the retrieval. The fish are 15' below the water at rest. They can not foul the running gear in any situation.

The 1/2" 3 strand stretches which seems to soften roll and the loading on the mast and a-frame. The swivel rotates as the 3 strand stretches.

The only issue we have had is the tab that the fish hang on wears. We added a SS bushing for the shackle to ride on. This was the only wear point after 11,000 plus miles. The block and winch is for retrieval.
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Old 03-10-2013, 07:37 PM   #16
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Nice system - I am trying to understand your retrieval system:

Is the block closest to the fish lowered down the line towards the fish and then hauled in towards the hull before raising the poles?
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Old 03-11-2013, 02:54 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Searios View Post
Nice system - I am trying to understand your retrieval system:

Is the block closest to the fish lowered down the line towards the fish and then hauled in towards the hull before raising the poles?
Yes. This how we get the fish to the side of the boat to lift out of the water for storage. We are pretty much stopped for retrieval.
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Old 08-01-2013, 01:15 AM   #18
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I changed out my chain to amsteel 1/8 and to my surprise the line transfer a fair amount of noise through the paravane setup. I am going to try to isolate the line.
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Old 08-01-2013, 08:15 AM   #19
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That sounds like a good idea. How did you terminate or what kind of splice did you do at the ends of the Amsteel?
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Old 08-03-2013, 05:47 PM   #20
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We recently replaced 1 1/2" steel push wires with 1 3/4" amsteel blue from atlantic cordage. Breaking strength of 302,000 lbs. Will save many a back injury!
I don't have any working experience with paravane systems, but I would think it would be useful in that service.
Last month I was aboard Larry and Lenas "Hobo" along with Mike (Sceptic) and Mellissa. Hobos' setup is very well thought out and is stout.His "fish" and Amsteel would go a long way in reducing weight on one of these setups.
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