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Old 03-27-2012, 05:05 PM   #61
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sanitation hoses

Let me preface my remarks by admitting complete ignorance as to the design criteria of marine heads specifically and I will gladly defer to Peggy as an obvious expert in this category. I will however state with complete confidence that if the head was designed to function with non-potable(raw or salt) water it will never be acceptable to just connect it to your potable(drinking) water system.

RV style commodes are not subject to the wave actions encountered on boats. I would "suspect" but do not "know" for a fact that they would be unacceptable for marine use.

For a point of reference. Any land based device that connects to a potable water supply must comply(in USA at least) to strict certification of IAPMO testing and standards. In other words, if the IAPMO shield is not present on the item, it does not belong in any land based plumbing system. Water supply or DWV(Drain Waste Vent) system, fittings included. Many non approved devices and fittings are widely available, though they are against code and good practice to use them. FWIW approved back flow devices(vacuum breakers etc) if installed incorrectly and not tested regularly are just as dangerous as no protection at all.

Protecting the potable water supply is the single most important thing you can do for your home or boat. I made a couple posts some years ago at another boat oriented website for a recommendation for a gentleman whose water system was accidentally contaminated by diesel fuel. I was shouted off of the forum by a couple of well qualified marine engineers as being ignorant and not qualified to render an opinion on the subject. The answers they gave made me cringe. Those posts and my 20+ years of professional experience in HVAC and plumbing where the deciding factor for me to never book passage on a cruise ship. The outbreak of on board illnesses speaks volumes to me that the marine industry as a whole has much to learn in the areas of sanitation.

While making poo poo go bye bye is the primary function of any head/toilet I assure you that the most critical design criteria the testing lab certifies is that cross contamination with potable water can not happen. Sanitation is not something to take lightly and cheeping out may or may not cost you your life, but it could certainly make you extremely ill.


-- Edited by CPseudonym on Tuesday 27th of March 2012 05:06:28 PM
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Old 03-27-2012, 06:24 PM   #62
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sanitation hoses

Quote:
CPseudonym wrote:
Let me preface my remarks by admitting complete ignorance as to the design criteria of marine heads specifically and I will gladly defer to Peggy as an obvious expert in this category. I will however state with complete confidence that if the head was designed to function with non-potable(raw or salt) water it will never be acceptable to just connect it to your potable(drinking) water system.

RV style commodes are not subject to the wave actions encountered on boats. I would "suspect" but do not "know" for a fact that they would be unacceptable for marine use.

For a point of reference. Any land based device that connects to a potable water supply must comply(in USA at least) to strict certification of IAPMO testing and standards. In other words, if the IAPMO shield is not present on the item, it does not belong in any land based plumbing system. Water supply or DWV(Drain Waste Vent) system, fittings included. Many non approved devices and fittings are widely available, though they are against code and good practice to use them. FWIW approved back flow devices(vacuum breakers etc) if installed incorrectly and not tested regularly are just as dangerous as no protection at all.

Protecting the potable water supply is the single most important thing you can do for your home or boat. I made a couple posts some years ago at another boat oriented website for a recommendation for a gentleman whose water system was accidentally contaminated by diesel fuel. I was shouted off of the forum by a couple of well qualified marine engineers as being ignorant and not qualified to render an opinion on the subject. The answers they gave made me cringe. Those posts and my 20+ years of professional experience in HVAC and plumbing where the deciding factor for me to never book passage on a cruise ship. The outbreak of on board illnesses speaks volumes to me that the marine industry as a whole has much to learn in the areas of sanitation.

While making poo poo go bye bye is the primary function of any head/toilet I assure you that the most critical design criteria the testing lab certifies is that cross contamination with potable water can not happen. Sanitation is not something to take lightly and cheeping out may or may not cost you your life, but it could certainly make you extremely ill.



-- Edited by CPseudonym on Tuesday 27th of March 2012 05:06:28 PM
*Study it...it's REALLY easy..and defering to experts usually has left the marine industry a decade behind the rest of all* other industries I have dealt with.

Sealand vacuflush heads and RV heads are virtually identical.* One uses a hugely complicated and annoyingly loud vacuum system...RV heads use* one part and gravity...* and are VERY quiet.

The only part I hadn't caught in the RV system (didn't affect me yet as I was filling the bowl with fresh water via shower wand) was the vacuum breaker (it's on my RV head but not on my fresh water converted marine head).

If you don't understand the systems..then so be it and live with the crap (pum inteneded) the manufacturers plunder you for.* As I have posted before...my RV system is 1/4 the price...easier/cheaper to repair and virtually silent.

Beat that setup marine head manufacturers.*


-- Edited by psneeld on Tuesday 27th of March 2012 06:29:59 PM
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Old 03-27-2012, 06:37 PM   #63
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RE: sanitation hoses

I will however state with complete confidence that if the head was designed to function with non-potable(raw or salt) water it will never be acceptable to just connect it to your potable(drinking) water system.

You are correct.

So all I have to do is install a vacuum breaker and I'm good to go because beyond that... no difference and it's no big deal to modify and GREATLY improve some systems than what is out there.

No.

The VacuFlush, first introduced in the late '70s by Mansfield Plumbing* (who spun off their marine toilet division to a new startup calling itself SeaLand Technology in 1984), was the first marine toilet designed to use pressurized flush water...and there's a wee bit more to it than just a valve to let in flush water that's connected to the foot pedal.* For nearly 20 years, it was the only game in town for those who wanted a toilet that drew less than about 50 amps and needed less than 1-3 gallons of flush water--AND eliminated those pesky sea water mineral and odor problems.* But that all changed in the early '90s..one by one, EVERY marine toilet mfr, including Raritan, Jabsco, and Tecma , began making* both sea water toilets and fresh water toilets. Today they all make both kinds.*

And that's what I think you're missing--that sea water toilets and fresh water toilets are DIFFERENT TOILETS, even if they have the same model name. For instance, the Raritan SeaEra is available as either a sea water toilet or a fresh water toilet.* You have to buy the one you want, you can't convert one version to turn it into the other one.**

As for RVs...there are only two types of toilets that'll work in an RV: those that have a flush water reservoir--some of which are VERY fancy!-- and those that use pressurized flush water.* Until the marine industry came up with pressurized flush water toilets, RV toilets didn't have ANY pumps--intake OR discharge...so the tank(s) had to be installed directly below the toilet...and all toilets had to be "direct drop"--a trap door in the bottom of the bowl connected to 3" opening in the tank called a "closet flange"...you can shine a light into the tank, no inspection port needed to see the "fruits of your labors floating in the tank."** SeaLand/Dometic still makes 'em...in fact, they were the forerunner of the VacuFlush, still sold for RVs, the low-end houseboat market and boat owners who want a really inexpensive system.** http://www.dometic.com/enus/Americas...ch/?sq=gravity

Yes, it is perfectly safe to use your boat's shower wand to flush a raw water head as long as it doesn't reach the bowl.* I have personally done this many times.* You can also fill a container from the potable water system and pour it into the head for flushing.

Or you can install a separate flush water tank. However, it must be TOTALLY separate from the potable water system...no common plumbing, not even share the same fill...

It would be simpler to re-route your head intake line to tee it into the head sink drain line...you'd also need either a shutoff valve or a seacock on the sink drain line that you can close...fill the sink with CLEAN fresh water (do NOT use gray water to flush a toilet!)...flush.* You even set it up to let you use sea water for normal use, then flush a sinkful of clean fresh water to rinse all the sea water out of the whole system.
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Old 03-27-2012, 08:07 PM   #64
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sanitation hoses

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*
Better yet forget it...I know I'm ahead of the game...just passing along info if someone wants to upgrade.* They can email me or call 609-780-2728...thats how confident I am about my system.



-- Edited by psneeld on Tuesday 27th of March 2012 08:11:10 PM


-- Edited by psneeld on Tuesday 27th of March 2012 08:11:47 PM
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Old 03-27-2012, 09:30 PM   #65
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RE: sanitation hoses

Great info Peggy, thanks for looking over our puffed up male shoulders. The question I posed some pages ago was "why not use fresh water?" Having seen and used all sorts of old marine toilets with a fresh water*addition via bucket, hose or shower head* as FF suggests avoids all sorts of problems and smells and*can eliminate a through hull or two per toilet.

If you ever plan on selling your boat, a modern fresh water toilet is pretty enticing for the new owner, or for some a requirement.

*
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Old 03-28-2012, 03:45 AM   #66
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RE: sanitation hoses

It would be even better if the high rollers that purchase new boats DEMAND that the RV style ,gravity drop it in the tank below , be installed.

Sure its a hassle for the NA and perhaps for the boat assembler, SO WHAT?

The ability to enjoy a vessel with out endless maint of complex systems is surely a positive!

While your at it DEMAND a servicing fuel tank too, boating is not supposed to be a Work Farm.

So many "problems" have simple solutions (like gravity) that it is criminal for boat assemblers to sell a product with built in disasters.
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Old 03-28-2012, 05:09 AM   #67
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RE: sanitation hoses

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It would be even better if the high rollers that purchase new boats DEMAND that the RV style ,gravity drop it in the tank below , be installed.

Sure its a hassle for the NA and perhaps for the boat assembler, SO WHAT?

The ability to enjoy a vessel with out endless maint of complex systems is surely a positive!

While your at it DEMAND a servicing fuel tank too, boating is not supposed to be a Work Farm.

So many "problems" have simple solutions (like gravity) that it is criminal for boat assemblers to sell a product with built in disasters.

*Yep...it was easy*to convert*my one head...that's why I did it....and pleasing customers ever since
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Old 03-28-2012, 08:53 AM   #68
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RE: sanitation hoses

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It would be even better if the high rollers that purchase new boats DEMAND that the RV style ,gravity drop it in the tank below , be installed.

Oh, yes...that would work really well on boats on which the toilet is is below the waterline and the bilge is only 6" deep--which, btw, describes 95% of boats--power AND sail--with toilets (those <35')...or on larger boats that have two heads close enough together to connect to a single tank. And it would also rule out treatment devices on most boats too, because they won't fit directly below most toilets....

You two are welcome to put anything on your own boats that floats 'em for you...but very few people actually would actually CHOOSE a system on which the tank is wide open through the toilet.* For most of the houseboat owners who have gravity toilets, their biggest complaint is the odor that rolls out of the toilet every time the "trap door" in the bowl is opened.
*
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Old 03-28-2012, 09:18 AM   #69
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RE: sanitation hoses

For those of us who enjoy others on board for long trips, nothing beats an odor free modern toilet and a good shower for pleasant times.
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Old 03-28-2012, 09:52 AM   #70
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RE: sanitation hoses

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For those of us who enjoy others on board for long trips, nothing beats an odor free modern toilet and a good shower for pleasant times.
*Sounds like my head...ooooops...not sounds like because mine is nearly silent too!*
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Old 03-28-2012, 09:59 AM   #71
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RE: sanitation hoses

You can install a toilet seat on a 5 gallon bucket. No moving parts and completely silent.

Add a trash can liner for an extra level of "sanitation"*
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Old 03-28-2012, 10:27 AM   #72
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RE: sanitation hoses

Craig*- After seeing your post about helping us download archives I'd thought a up-to-date man had appeared.* *
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Old 03-28-2012, 12:13 PM   #73
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RE: sanitation hoses

Quote:
CPseudonym wrote:
You can install a toilet seat on a 5 gallon bucket. No moving parts and completely silent.

Add a trash can liner for an extra level of "sanitation"*
*You can...but mine's a WHOLE lot nicer...just like the $1000 china models
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Old 03-28-2012, 12:18 PM   #74
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RE: sanitation hoses

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Craig*- After seeing your post about helping us download archives I'd thought a up-to-date man had appeared.* *
*My apologies but occasionally my dry wit and*sarcasm gets the best of me*:handshake:
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Old 03-28-2012, 12:43 PM   #75
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RE: sanitation hoses

Greetings,
I wonder if this would work on a swim platform<a href="http://www.bumperdumper.com/bumper2.htm">?
</a>

http://www.bumperdumper.com/bumper2.htm
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Old 03-29-2012, 04:21 AM   #76
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RE: sanitation hoses

"And it would also rule out treatment devices on most boats too, because they won't fit directly below most toilets...."

Not too long from now the "on board treatment ' devices will be ruled out to "SAVE' something or other.

FL Keys ,much of the Chessy , areas of LI Sound are "no discharge" zones already.

Sure on a small flat bottomed boat with no bilge, the toilet would need to be raised ,to sir on the poop box , so?

RV style Toilets are OTS with various heights ., so installing on a 10 inch deep tank could offer home style seating height.

In boats that actually get underway , an even higher toilet is a great help for males as the boat moves the target.
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Old 03-29-2012, 05:14 AM   #77
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RE: sanitation hoses

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FF wrote:
"And it would also rule out treatment devices on most boats too, because they won't fit directly below most toilets...."

Not too long from now the "on board treatment ' devices will be ruled out to "SAVE' something or other.

FL Keys ,much of the Chessy , areas of LI Sound are "no discharge" zones already.

Sure on a small flat bottomed boat with no bilge, the toilet would need to be raised ,to sir on the poop box , so?

RV style Toilets are OTS with various heights ., so installing on a 10 inch deep tank could offer home style seating height.

In boats that actually get underway , an even higher toilet is a great help for males as the boat moves the target.

*Don't try logic..I did...didn't work

Small boats often use porta poties...toilet with tank underneath...RV style...hmmmmmm.*
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Old 03-29-2012, 06:45 AM   #78
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RE: sanitation hoses

I have a raw water flush head in my boat (the chapest Jabsco manual head). It was well worn and needed rebuilding when I bought the boat and there was a smell from the raw water (not the holding tank) for the first few flushes after being unused for a week or more.

I eventually replaced the head with a new one of the same make and model but added a filter in the raw water inlet just upstream of the seacock. This filter keeps most of the sea life that would decay and cause odor out of the system. I also replaced all the old (probably original) sanitation hoses. I use Odorloss as a holding tank treatment.

The boat is now pretty much odor free.

Occasionally, if I'm just on the boat for a couple hours, I'll fill the bowl and flush using the shower wand from the sink but only because it's easier than turning the seacock on and off.

I would rather have a Raritan Elegance computerized flush head because it uses less water than a manual raw water head (holding tank capacity is the concern here, not actual consumption), but I don't think it would fit in the space I have.
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Old 03-29-2012, 07:26 AM   #79
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RE: sanitation hoses

FL Keys ,much of the Chessy , areas of LI Sound are "no discharge" zones already.


You got 1 out of 3 right, Fred...that's higher than your usual average.

The Keys are NDZ...however, LIS is not (although most of the harbors on it are).** But the Chesapeake is not...in fact, there's only one very small NDZ on the whole Bay: Herring Bay.

And on most boats that actually get underway, the rule for head use is, "Gentlemen, please be seated at all times while underway."** Only those who find it necessary to continually prove their masculinity ever object.
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Old 03-29-2012, 09:11 AM   #80
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RE: sanitation hoses

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............. And on most boats that actually get underway, the rule for head use is, "Gentlemen, please be seated at all times while underway."** Only those who find it necessary to continually prove their masculinity ever object.

If you go to the forums where the center console crowd hangs out, proving your masculinity means going over the side, not in a marine head.* Some of these guys prohibit using the head if there is one or actually remove them from their boats.
*
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