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Old 01-07-2011, 08:59 AM   #21
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RE: Recommendations for a new windlass

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BaltimoreLurker wrote:

*
nomadwilly wrote:

Baltimore,
How does the Sea Tiger work? Vertical, horizontal, hand crank*** What?
Have you got pics? I'll look on the web.

-- Edited by nomadwilly on Thursday 6th of January 2011 06:00:25 PM
Eric:

The SL555 is a horizontal, dual-action hand crank unit.
They are out of production and difficult to find,
- Darrell
I cannot sit by and let this go.................
Unless you have a boat that is so small that you can quickly pull the anchor/chain up by hand a manual windless is a really bad idea.* There is a tendency to go ahead an stay anchored in a spot that you really should move out of if you need to crank up 200' of chain.... not to mention that unless you look like Popeye it is going to take a LONG time. We have spent plenty of times anchored way too close to a boat that came in late and set their manual windless and for one reason or another ended up too close to us for comfort.... which usually causes me to pull up and move ( in the south pacific I think the French cruisers did this on purpose to try to push other boats that were there first out of prime spots! )** On a trawler we have plenty of ability to recharge batteries and the weight of a windless isn't an issue... the only reason to go manual is because one is too cheap!
HOLLYWOOD

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Old 01-07-2011, 10:47 AM   #22
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RE: Recommendations for a new windlass

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hollywood8118 wrote:... the only reason to go manual is because one is too cheap!
HOLLYWOOD
Pretty strong lingo but it's "on the mark."

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Old 01-07-2011, 10:59 AM   #23
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RE: Recommendations for a new windlass

Quote:
... the only reason to go manual is because one is too cheap!
Much truth there, but my being cheap isn't the only reason.* There's no place in the Chesapeake I'll be laying out 200' of chain.* Nor did the installation require batteries, wiring, switches, fuses, etc., etc. * I love simple.



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Old 01-07-2011, 11:35 AM   #24
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RE: Recommendations for a new windlass

Why I'm suddenly interested in a manual windlass is that I am thinking of a system that would involve a rode for Willy of about 300' of 5/8" brait, 20' of 3/8" chain (heavy for a 30' boat, and a 33 or 44# claw anchor. In an emergency it could be pulled by hand. Centerstage in the retrieval system would be an electric capstan winch. There would also be (just ahead on the deck) the manual winch. I agree w Hollywood that pulling 200' of chain is unacceptable. But w this system only 20' of chain will need pulling by the hand winch.*All the rest with the capstan should be a walk in the park. So that's my interest in the manual winch.
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Old 01-07-2011, 12:18 PM   #25
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RE: Recommendations for a new windlass

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nomadwilly wrote:

...I am thinking of a system that would involve a rode for Willy of about 300' of 5/8" brait, 20' of 3/8" chain (heavy for a 30' boat, and a 33 or 44# claw anchor. In an emergency it could be pulled by hand.
There are several sailboats in our part of the marina with this type of manual windlass on them.* Assuming that they are well made with a "life of the boat" reputation there is an advantage to extreme simplicity.* However, IIRC, these sailboats are all pretty small--- 36 feet is perhaps the largest one, and their anchors are not very large.* Mostly small CQRs.

I have pulled up our 44# Rocna by hand once when the original windlass on our boat sheared some teeth.* We were anchored in about 30' of water.* When the windlass packed up we were over the anchor and it was out of the bottom.* So there was just the 30' of chain and the anchor to pull up.

I'm admittedly not in the world's best condition, but I'm pretty strong, dont' have a bad back, and so on.* Hauling up that 44# anchor is something I would prefer not to have to do again.

If one doesn't trust their electric windlass, or think they may be in a postion where there's not enough power to run it, a manual windlass as backup as Eric suggests is a good idea if there's room for it on the foredeck.* Preferable, in my opinion, to relying on hauling the rode and anchor up by hand if the electric windlass fails.

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Old 01-07-2011, 12:39 PM   #26
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RE: Recommendations for a new windlass

My electric winch will be capstan only and the last of the rode will need to be winched up w the manual. If the capstan fails I'll need to pull up lots of line, 20' of 3/8" chain and the anchor (33 to 55#). Here is a currently available Manual winch found at Fisheries Supply. It's not in stock but they must be able to get it.*If I keep the Willy this is just one of my ideas.
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Old 01-07-2011, 01:42 PM   #27
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RE: Recommendations for a new windlass

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My electric winch will be capstan only and the last of the rode will need to be winched up w the manual.
There are electric windlasses that can pull both chain and line with the same drum.* I've not seen one in person, but I'm assuming the chain slots in the wildcat are shaped in such a way as to be able to grip line, too.* I believe these things were discussed awhile back under the topic of line-to-chain splices or something.* Would not one of these windlasses work for your application?

Having a manual windlass as a backup can be a good idea, but the notion of having to switch the rode to a totally different windlass every time you retrieve the anchor seems rather inefficient.* I can't remember if you said Willy has a chain locker or not, but if it does using two different windlasses to retrieve the anchor poses some issues with getting the rode down into the locker.* If you just keep your rode on deck I guess using two windlasses to retrieve the anchor's not that inconvenient.

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Old 01-07-2011, 02:44 PM   #28
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RE: Recommendations for a new windlass

Quote:
Marin wrote:"There are electric windlasses that can pull both chain and line with the same drum.* I've not seen one in person, but I'm assuming the chain slots in the wildcat are shaped in such a way as to be able to grip line, too."


Most windlass's are made this way... I need to replace the current windless on our new boat as it is a Good mfg. all rode windless.... a P.O.S. in my mind for anything other than a deck boat!.
On the sailboat we cruised the Pacific we installed a Maxwell vertical drum windless and it was a great unit.. it hauled 250' of chain up all the time with 0 issues in the 3 years we used it. ( side note.. we used the house bank for the windless so we had a cable run to add of about 25/30' to power the unit... i don't agree with dedicated windless batteries)*
In calm weather a manual windless will lift the chain/anchor if time isn't an issue. But.... I have witnessed dozens of incidents over the years where the only chance for the survival of a yacht with a manual windless would have been to dump all the rode/chain to get out of harms way.*
We had a incident in Fiji in front of the Royal Suva Yacht Club where a un- expected blow from the south exposed the anchorage to 5' waves and over 1/2 the boats drug anchor ( us included ). I had to power our 35' sail boat with all her 40hp at full throttle into the maelstrom with a friend standing on the windless switch of a Maxwell 1100lb pull windless. We were dragging down on one of the few boats still in place ( it had the same size Bruce and chain as we had )* It would of been IMPOSSIBLE* to do anything with a lesser windless. Powered windless are as much a safety device as a luxury... in the "old" days when manual windless* were in vogue anchorages were not crowded and this wasn't as much of a concern.
How many times would any of you stayed put in a spot you anchored in that wasnt "right" if you had to spend 10/15 minutes cranking a damn handle back and forth in 95% humidity and 95 degrees in the blazing sun???

I thought so!
HOLLYWOOD
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Old 01-07-2011, 03:09 PM   #29
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Recommendations for a new windlass

Quote:
Marin wrote:If one doesn't trust their electric windlass, or think they may be in a postion where there's not enough power to run it, a manual windlass as backup as Eric suggests is a good idea if there's room for it on the foredeck.* Preferable, in my opinion, to relying on hauling the rode and anchor up by hand if the electric windlass fails.
I apologize if I'm not understanding the problem but don't most electric windlasses
have a mechanical set up where you can crank them by hand? Mine does & is a
combination chain & line as well.?????????????



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Old 01-07-2011, 04:17 PM   #30
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RE: Recommendations for a new windlass

Quote:
SeaHorse II wrote:
I apologize if I'm not understanding the problem but don't most electric windlasses
have a mechanical set up where you can crank them by hand? Mine does.Sadly, no. The one that came with our boat does not. It worries me. Not that it can't be remedied by throwing some boat units at it.
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Old 01-07-2011, 06:21 PM   #31
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RE: Recommendations for a new windlass

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SeaHorse II wrote:I apologize if I'm not understanding the problem but don't most electric windlasses have a mechanical set up where you can crank them by hand? Mine does & is a combination chain & line as well.?????????????
Good point.* Some do and some don't I guess.* The Lofrans Tigres does have a manual mode that can be used if the electric drive fails. It uses a long handle that comes with the windlass and (I am told) is very slow.* But it would still beat hauling the chain and anchor up by hand unless you were in a big hurry.

The original windlass on our boat did not have a manual mode.

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Old 01-07-2011, 07:21 PM   #32
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RE: Recommendations for a new windlass

Looks like I'm still not communicating here. My system has two winches. The fwd winch is the manual for 3/8th chain only. The rode will come aboard via the electric capstan (drum only) just behind the manual winch and will have only the drum (capstan). When the 20' of chain appears over the bow roller I pull up until there is chain above the gypsy. Tie off in front of the manual Winch and set the chain on the gypsy and take up the slack w the man winch. Use the manual winch to pull up the 20' of chain and claw (probably) anchor. Make the anchor fast, remove the rode from the anchor and finish putting the entire rode all in the box on deck up against the fore cabin just behind the electric capstan. So you see the manual is not a back up winch at all. If I've got 100' of line/rode out I'd need to call Chris (back up winch) to get the rode up. This system would actually be an option on a larger boat unlike most of my anchoring ideas. To me the advantage is a minimal amount of chain and all the rode stores on deck. And yes Marin I do have a traditional chain locker but my last boat w chain locker developed a stink and humidity problem. I have since decided the rode belongs on deck and it should be as light as possible. The above is only an idea and is not found in Chapman's but perhaps it could become the "next generation" anchoring system"*
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Old 01-07-2011, 07:27 PM   #33
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RE: Recommendations for a new windlass

We have the original mechanical windlass on our Present 42, a Lefrans as I recall. Twenty feet of chain, rest is 5/8 line. Primary anchor is a 36# hinged plow for a lunch hook, easy to store and self launches. 37 Fortess at night.
Maybe we are doing this all wrong- but our system is to put the admiral on the bridge, I deploy and talk her through backing up. All done with the trannies, neutral when I reach 7:1, wrap around the windlass drum then tie off on a Sampson post. Back up directions are given again to determine a proper "set".
OK, we are at anchor. I mentioned this to go over how we retrieve the anchor.
Admiral on bridge again, me with directions to her in forward that runs us directly over the anchor, lots of forward/ port, forward/ both, etc. As I quickly pull the line in by hand. Let me also admit that most anchorages are 15' or less. Neutral as we draw up over the anchor and I quickly wrap around the winch drum and around the Sampson post as we drift forward and break out the anchor.
At this point I usually am able to drop the chain in the chain drum and ratchet the remaining chain in pretty quickly. Actually if I prefer I can pull the remainder in by hand. Obviously I wouldn't be able to do this with a 55-60# anchor. But for us it is a simple way to deploy and retrieve the anchor.
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Old 01-07-2011, 07:55 PM   #34
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Recommendations for a new windlass

Eric---

Your tandem windlass idea will certainly work although it seems to me that you could accomplish the same thing with one windlass that has a combination wildcat on it that can pull both your line and your chain. Unless you already own the line-gypsy-only windlass and want to use it instead of buying something new.

We don't have an odor issue with the locker on our boat. Granted, we use all-chain rode so once it's washed off there's nothing on it anymore. As opposed to line that gets mud and other bits down in the strands where it can rot and stink.

-- Edited by Marin on Friday 7th of January 2011 08:56:47 PM
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Old 01-07-2011, 08:59 PM   #35
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RE: Recommendations for a new windlass

Hi again Steve,By mechanical do you mean manual? What is and where is the "chain drum"? Well I see bigger boats DO have options for lighter ground tackle. Fifteen feet of water? You must boat in anchoring haven. I like your drill. We do much the same but that act is going to get real slick this summer w our crew communicators. I will be able to constantly (or nearly so) talk to Chris not only about what comes next but why and possible alternatives as well. Boat handling 101.
Marin,
A combination winch/gypsy is unacceptable. I don't like the splice and I don't like punishment I think the line is subjected too. About that "next generation" item I'll wait and see over much time. But your're right. It would be the ideal system for the ideal rode
(combination) that I've ever heard about. Just don't like it. I am open to possibly (remotely) an all chain system w a good high pressure washdown system. Three years ago when we talked about this I didn't like the weight of all chain and I'm 100% of the same opinion now.
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Old 01-07-2011, 09:03 PM   #36
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Recommendations for a new windlass

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:

*
Three years ago when we talked about this I didn't like the weight of all chain and I'm 100% of the same opinion now.
In a boat like yours and in the potentially very deep waters you have to anchor in up there I would think that an all-chain rode-- which I believe would do*a better job of*anchoring your boat-- would be perhaps too much weight in the bow.* I wouldn't want any less than 300 feet*for the Passage and SE Alaska.*

-- Edited by Marin on Friday 7th of January 2011 10:04:29 PM
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Old 01-07-2011, 10:12 PM   #37
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RE: Recommendations for a new windlass

Quote:
Marin wrote:I would think that an all-chain rode-- which I believe would do*a better job of*anchoring your boat-- would be perhaps too much weight in the bow.*
I had 238 ' of 3/8" chain that I pulled out of my boat for the reason given above.
When coming off a wave, my bow didn't recover as fast as I would like it to so I
switched to 20' of chain and 160' of rope. The bow recovers much better now and
I'm not hauling all that weight around.

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Old 01-08-2011, 07:28 AM   #38
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RE: Recommendations for a new windlass

Eric,
It was great talking to you and thanks again for the Willard info. We do have a manual windless. We have a drum on each side of our windlass. If I were a bit saltier I would know the proper names. One is smooth and the other has a groove in the center and is designed for the chain to drop into, I guess sort of like a sprocket. Chain drum!
When I have to haul the anchor up from a deep anchorage it means I begin the pull with the 5/8 line. I wrap it twice around the smooth drum and also pull it as I ratchet it up. I assume this is correct- but have never been on a sail boat. When I reach the chain I actually pull the line off of the smooth drum and manhandle the rode to the other side and engage the chain onto the "chain drum".
Question- I always wondered if the center groove on the "chain drum" was designed to pull the line and then transition to the chain when it reached the drum?
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Old 01-08-2011, 08:59 AM   #39
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RE: Recommendations for a new windlass

Steve, My chain only gypsy has a smooth groove in the center also. It seems to be there so the chain links can lie flat in the indentations that grip them when raising or lowering.
My previous boat has a combination rope/chain Gypsy it was similar to a standard chain gypsy but the grove was in a V shape and had ridges to grip the rope. The rope was spliced to the chain, the windlass fed and transitioned from rope to chain "automatically" just fine. Some people distrust the slpice, some like only an all chain rode, I guess it depends where one anchors most. In my opinion a combination rope/ chain rode would be fine along the gulf coast where we usually anchor sahllow 8-20' depths I did not have any problem with it but did not really anchor out very much. My Monk had all chain on it when I bought her that works fine for me too.
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Old 01-08-2011, 10:16 AM   #40
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RE: Recommendations for a new windlass

Steve,
No V or grooves so I think you are right. It sounds like our area with it's shallow anchoring and small tidal changes has it's benefits.
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