Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 09-27-2013, 04:35 PM   #1
Al
Guru
 
Al's Avatar
 
City: ketchikan, Alaska
Country: usa
Vessel Name: 'SLO'~BELLE
Vessel Model: 1978 Marben-27' Flybridge Trawler Pilothouse Pocket Cruiser[
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,690
Propane wall heater/moisture factor

Greetings again to the forum with a question-

Having reviewed past forums for information and not really seeing an answer to the following, I submit the question:

With propane the subject of moisture usually comes up and that it is a problem particularly in moist atmosphere, such as the Pacific Northwest/Alaska. Even so, the discussion seemingly revolves around the use for cooking and when heating is mentioned, there is little information as to how the difference is between heating and cooking.

I'd like to give consideration to a Newport wall mount propane heater. The question related regards the amount of moisture instilled from the heater vs. the exhaust going up the stack?
In cooking it is clear that the moisture created by the heat is from the open flame, in the heater it would seem the flame is contained and exhausted allowing the heat to flow. Am I missing a science factor here?

By the way, with our cooking propane stove, we do use joy on the windows,


Thanks for any explanation received.

Al Johnson-Ketchikan (Bridge to Nowhere) Alaska


Two Eskimos sitting in a kayak were chilly, so they lit a fire in the
craft. Unsurprisingly it sank, proving once again that you can't have
your kayak and heat it too.
__________________
Advertisement

Al is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2013, 06:51 PM   #2
Senior Member
 
City: CA
Country: USA
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 178
Propane Heaters

Certainly must be 100% vented to the outside. That being said I would guess the moisture issue would be minimal if at all. Your Propane flame heats a metal heat exchanger that is vented outside.

We cook with Propane here at Red Dirt Ranch and do notice a slight increase in RH that we enjoy because it offsets the dryness from our sustainable wood stove.

When I purchase a boat I will want Propane or Diesel cooking, and Propane or Diesel forced air heat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al View Post
Greetings again to the forum with a question-

Having reviewed past forums for information and not really seeing an answer to the following, I submit the question:

With propane the subject of moisture usually comes up and that it is a problem particularly in moist atmosphere, such as the Pacific Northwest/Alaska. Even so, the discussion seemingly revolves around the use for cooking and when heating is mentioned, there is little information as to how the difference is between heating and cooking.

I'd like to give consideration to a Newport wall mount propane heater. The question related regards the amount of moisture instilled from the heater vs. the exhaust going up the stack?
In cooking it is clear that the moisture created by the heat is from the open flame, in the heater it would seem the flame is contained and exhausted allowing the heat to flow. Am I missing a science factor here?

By the way, with our cooking propane stove, we do use joy on the windows,


Thanks for any explanation received.

Al Johnson-Ketchikan (Bridge to Nowhere) Alaska


Two Eskimos sitting in a kayak were chilly, so they lit a fire in the
craft. Unsurprisingly it sank, proving once again that you can't have
your kayak and heat it too.
__________________

BigJim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2013, 07:38 PM   #3
Al
Guru
 
Al's Avatar
 
City: ketchikan, Alaska
Country: usa
Vessel Name: 'SLO'~BELLE
Vessel Model: 1978 Marben-27' Flybridge Trawler Pilothouse Pocket Cruiser[
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,690
Thanks Big Jim, Let us see what else accumulates on the subject. A
Al is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2013, 09:00 PM   #4
Senior Member
 
bshanafelt's Avatar
 
City: Seattle, WA
Vessel Name: Isobel K
Vessel Model: 37' Custom Pilothouse
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 288
The Newport style bulkhead mount LPG heaters utilize a double wall stack pipe. Combustion air and any waste heat are both dealt with in a single pipe. Since the flame is sealed off from the room being heated, any moisture exhausts out the stack.

Mine works fairly well for the area it serves. If I really wanted a great source of winter heat, it would be diesel fired instead of LP. The hydronic systems are the cat's meow.
bshanafelt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2013, 09:27 PM   #5
Al
Guru
 
Al's Avatar
 
City: ketchikan, Alaska
Country: usa
Vessel Name: 'SLO'~BELLE
Vessel Model: 1978 Marben-27' Flybridge Trawler Pilothouse Pocket Cruiser[
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,690
bshanafelt- Thanks, this is inline with my thinking. As the boat is only 27 feet, space to mount is a huge issue. I have constucted a mockup for a oil heat Dickinsen wall/floor mount unit it really is not a comfortable fit. The smaller Newport propane is better suited mounting wise,
thank you for responding.
Al johnson
Al is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2013, 10:50 PM   #6
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Country: usa
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,361
Quote:
Originally Posted by bshanafelt View Post
If I really wanted a great source of winter heat, it would be diesel fired instead of LP. The hydronic systems are the cat's meow.
Yup, forget about propane.
sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2013, 12:03 AM   #7
TF Site Team
 
ksanders's Avatar
 
City: SEWARD ALASKA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: LISAS WAY
Vessel Model: BAYLINER 4788
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,952
Propane, or even diesel radient heaters like the newport, or the Dickinson units might be good for certain applications but they take up wall space, and limit the heated area to what the heater is in.

I think in a smaller boat, heater that has the roomor an a supplemental heat source they might work well, but I would far and away prefer the diesel fired units. Seeing the flame might add ambiance to a boat, like a fireplace does to a home.

One of the challenges of propane is fuel. At 91,000 BTU per gallon a 10K BTu furnace will go through a gallon in 9 hours. Its easy to see that lugging fuel could become an issue quickly.

Opinions vary as to wether forced air or hydronic is the best, but in areas where heating of boats is commonplace, diesel is far and away the preferred fuel.
__________________
Kevin Sanders
Bayliner 4788
Seward, Alaska
www.mvlisasway.com
ksanders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2013, 03:07 AM   #8
Guru
 
tpbrady's Avatar
 
City: Anchorage/Wrangell
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Silver Bay
Vessel Model: Nordic Tug 42-002
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 505
Having moved from a CDory to a trawler I recommend a forced air diesel heater like the Wallas or Airtronic (Espar). They can be installed just about anywhere, don't use much fuel or electricity, and are reliable with some annual maintenance, and with forced air heat can be moved where you need it.

Tom
tpbrady is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2013, 05:18 PM   #9
Al
Guru
 
Al's Avatar
 
City: ketchikan, Alaska
Country: usa
Vessel Name: 'SLO'~BELLE
Vessel Model: 1978 Marben-27' Flybridge Trawler Pilothouse Pocket Cruiser[
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,690
Thanks to all, The boat has a Espar D3L furnace currently and currently it works. However, when I spoke with the Vancouver B.C. Espar dealership, I was advised for the most part, that the glow plug is about the remaining item available. Replacing the unit with the newer Espar model or another closely related gun type unit is an option yet, reducing the number of factors such as the reported cause of failure in these units is the condition of the house battery charge in terms of what the Espar demands causes grief is foremost.
With a wall or floor mounted unit the issue is muted. Fans on these units are not finicky as the Espar.
nor is the purchase price. Really want to increase the simplicty short of building a wood fire on the aft deck.
Perhaps a forum member can elevate some of my concerns by a descriptive narration of replacement of a Espar with a newer model or such.
Propane as a solution has been discarded. As well, a oil fired cook stove due to space constrictions. No, a Wallas will not be considered.
While I am limiting options here, the discussion is bearing direction.
Thanks again,
Al Johnson
Al is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2013, 06:46 AM   #10
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,518
One of the hassles with the old Espars is the factory was not honest with the starting amperage required.

This lead to folks using far lighter wiring than was required.

Add to that the setup was really for truck and bus use , 14+ volts most of the time , and starting problems were very common.

The burner nozzle and other items must be replaced when servicing the units , if they are not available , its scrap.
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2013, 09:36 AM   #11
TF Site Team
 
ksanders's Avatar
 
City: SEWARD ALASKA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: LISAS WAY
Vessel Model: BAYLINER 4788
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,952
Quote:
Originally Posted by Al View Post
Thanks to all, The boat has a Espar D3L furnace currently and currently it works. However, when I spoke with the Vancouver B.C. Espar dealership, I was advised for the most part, that the glow plug is about the remaining item available. Replacing the unit with the newer Espar model or another closely related gun type unit is an option yet, reducing the number of factors such as the reported cause of failure in these units is the condition of the house battery charge in terms of what the Espar demands causes grief is foremost.
With a wall or floor mounted unit the issue is muted. Fans on these units are not finicky as the Espar.
nor is the purchase price. Really want to increase the simplicty short of building a wood fire on the aft deck.
Perhaps a forum member can elevate some of my concerns by a descriptive narration of replacement of a Espar with a newer model or such.
Propane as a solution has been discarded. As well, a oil fired cook stove due to space constrictions. No, a Wallas will not be considered.
While I am limiting options here, the discussion is bearing direction.
Thanks again,
Al Johnson
Replacing your old Espar with a newer Espar or Webasto should be a piece of cake installation.

I would not discount the Wallas too quickly, especially on a 27' boat.

I've had the Espars on several boats that size. The sound is like a jet taking off inside the boat. That might be a bit of an exageration but they are loud!

I cannot hear my Wallas furnaces, and I have three of them.

There is something to be said for peace and quiet.
__________________
Kevin Sanders
Bayliner 4788
Seward, Alaska
www.mvlisasway.com
ksanders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2013, 11:46 AM   #12
TF Site Team
 
Pau Hana's Avatar


 
City: Seattle, WA
Country: Good Ol' US of A!
Vessel Name: Pau Hana
Vessel Model: 1989 PT52 Overseas Yachtfisher
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,647
Al, don't be so quick to dismiss the Wallas heater.

We had a Webasto HL-90 on our last boat- perhaps the loudest heater on the market when new. Sounded like an afterburner on an F-14...

On the new boat,no researched them all- forced air, hydronic, wall mount diesel, and even a wood burning fireplace. Since we are full time liveaboards, keeping g the interior dry is paramount. Cost, of course, is another factor to consider, as is installation and service complexities.

We decided on the Wallas based on the following:

-low amperage
-variable speed heater output to regulate temp vs cycling on and off
-self contained unit: the file pump is integrated in the unit vs Webasto and Esper
-dual heat outlets

In our mild temperature area (Puget Sound) we are going with a 40DT Wallas. Starting the install today.....
__________________
Peter- Marine Insurance Guru & tuna fishing addict!

1989 52' PT Overseas yachtfisher
Pau Hana is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2013, 02:38 PM   #13
Al
Guru
 
Al's Avatar
 
City: ketchikan, Alaska
Country: usa
Vessel Name: 'SLO'~BELLE
Vessel Model: 1978 Marben-27' Flybridge Trawler Pilothouse Pocket Cruiser[
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,690
Whoa!! Sorry, I was referencing the stove top Wallas. Looking over the specs on the Wallas heaters the 30D appears to be equivalent with the wall/floor mounted Dickinson btu wise. While I have an existing Espar mounted space which the Wallas unit would replace, simplicity is still the overriding factor of consideration. A gravity feed and only using the simple fan to move the heat surely. Offsetting too is the cost.
Going to Seattle first of October so will visit both Scan Marine on Westlake to discuss installation from afar. Sure Marine to discuss the Dickinson unit.
Thanks for the input.
Al Johnson
Al is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2013, 02:53 PM   #14
TF Site Team
 
ksanders's Avatar
 
City: SEWARD ALASKA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: LISAS WAY
Vessel Model: BAYLINER 4788
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,952
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pau Hana View Post
Al, don't be so quick to dismiss the Wallas heater.

We had a Webasto HL-90 on our last boat- perhaps the loudest heater on the market when new. Sounded like an afterburner on an F-14...

On the new boat,no researched them all- forced air, hydronic, wall mount diesel, and even a wood burning fireplace. Since we are full time liveaboards, keeping g the interior dry is paramount. Cost, of course, is another factor to consider, as is installation and service complexities.

We decided on the Wallas based on the following:

-low amperage
-variable speed heater output to regulate temp vs cycling on and off
-self contained unit: the file pump is integrated in the unit vs Webasto and Esper
-dual heat outlets

In our mild temperature area (Puget Sound) we are going with a 40DT Wallas. Starting the install today.....


A couple of hints I figured out on these units:

1. The furnace can be mounted either direction. Choose the direction where the components are to the front. This may sound like a no brainer, but with the cover on, you cant really see the components, so its tempting to mount the unit to make the inlet and outlet air easier to duct.

2. mount the heater with some space below the unit. The reason is that if you loosen the two screws on the lower sides you can drop the cover off of the unit, but it goes downward.

3. do not secure the fuel hose to the lower housing with the supplied adel clamp.

If you do these three things you'll have an installation that will be easy to service with the heater still installed.


Pete, if you have any issues or questions, I'd be happy to help. Im at work but have my cell.
__________________
Kevin Sanders
Bayliner 4788
Seward, Alaska
www.mvlisasway.com
ksanders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2013, 05:51 PM   #15
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,877
Quote:
Originally Posted by ksanders View Post
A couple of hints I figured out on these units:

1. The furnace can be mounted either direction. Choose the direction where the components are to the front. This may sound like a no brainer, but with the cover on, you cant really see the components, so its tempting to mount the unit to make the inlet and outlet air easier to duct.

2. mount the heater with some space below the unit. The reason is that if you loosen the two screws on the lower sides you can drop the cover off of the unit, but it goes downward.

3. do not secure the fuel hose to the lower housing with the supplied adel clamp.

If you do these three things you'll have an installation that will be easy to service with the heater still installed.


Pete, if you have any issues or questions, I'd be happy to help. Im at work but have my cell.
Why don't secure the fuel line?....anything in particular?
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2013, 11:45 AM   #16
Senior Member
 
Boydski's Avatar
 
City: Olympia, WA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Sea Eagle
Vessel Model: Nordhavn 47
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 201
Thumbs up Wallas Heaters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pau Hana View Post
In our mild temperature area (Puget Sound) we are going with a 40DT Wallas. Starting the install today.....
That made me laugh, since I just finished installing two Wallas 40dT heaters yesterday. I've had Wallas heaters in several boats, including the dive charter boats I ran. We often had 14 dripping wet divers huddled in the Cabin between dives. I was always impressed at how well the heater was able to de-fog the windows by bringing in outside air and heating it.

I also loved how quiet the units were when operating since the fan speed and flame size are reduced to a whisper once the room is warmed up.

Some details and photos of the Wallas Diesel Heater install are posted at Wallas Diesel Heaters | Sea Eagle Blog .

Good Luck
__________________
Scott (Boydski) Boyd
Yes Please, Grand Banks Eastbay
Sea Eagle, Nordhavn 47 (sold)
Boydski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2013, 02:06 AM   #17
TF Site Team
 
ksanders's Avatar
 
City: SEWARD ALASKA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: LISAS WAY
Vessel Model: BAYLINER 4788
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,952
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
Why don't secure the fuel line?....anything in particular?
If you secure the fuel line to the case, it creates a situation where you need to get a screwdriver underneath the heater to take out the screw to lower the case for service.

If you secure the fuel line externally then you can choose a method that makes for easy removal.

In securing the fuel line I'm mean strain relief, not the attachment of the line to the heater.
__________________
Kevin Sanders
Bayliner 4788
Seward, Alaska
www.mvlisasway.com
ksanders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2013, 02:10 AM   #18
TF Site Team
 
ksanders's Avatar
 
City: SEWARD ALASKA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: LISAS WAY
Vessel Model: BAYLINER 4788
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,952
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boydski View Post
That made me laugh, since I just finished installing two Wallas 40dT heaters yesterday. I've had Wallas heaters in several boats, including the dive charter boats I ran. We often had 14 dripping wet divers huddled in the Cabin between dives. I was always impressed at how well the heater was able to de-fog the windows by bringing in outside air and heating it.

I also loved how quiet the units were when operating since the fan speed and flame size are reduced to a whisper once the room is warmed up.

Some details and photos of the Wallas Diesel Heater install are posted at Wallas Diesel Heaters | Sea Eagle Blog .

Good Luck
People do not realize. How quiet these units are. I was on a dock mates boat last week and asked,are you running your generator?

The reply was it was their furnace! The unit was a hurricane hydronic furnace and it was loud enough to be a bother during normal conversation.
__________________
Kevin Sanders
Bayliner 4788
Seward, Alaska
www.mvlisasway.com
ksanders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2013, 05:02 PM   #19
Al
Guru
 
Al's Avatar
 
City: ketchikan, Alaska
Country: usa
Vessel Name: 'SLO'~BELLE
Vessel Model: 1978 Marben-27' Flybridge Trawler Pilothouse Pocket Cruiser[
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,690
toyo

As aside to this discussion, seeing the size and configuration of the Wallas D30 brought to mind that several years ago, Toyotomi stove had brought a marine model to the market. They sold like hot cakes here in Southeast. Then as though a light bulb burnt out, they were taken off the market. I mean off the North American market and right now!
Having seen the installations on several boats in our size rig, I would jump on one of those as there is a local dealer.
So, in the interest of inquiry sent the following to the Toyotomi American site:


"Could one receive the marketing reason that marine TOYO stove was discontinued to the North American market?

Never heard a bad word on the units, and dealers can not give a response that makes economic sense.
Ever person who had (As parts are not available changing out) one swore by them not at them.

My home is heated by laser 73, our guest home is heated by the next smaller size. In over 20 years, has to be that long, the 73 has cost no more that a couple of thousand in shop time.

Hence the question on the marine heater.
thanks, AMJ



A.M.Johnson
Al is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2013, 05:19 PM   #20
TF Site Team
 
Pau Hana's Avatar


 
City: Seattle, WA
Country: Good Ol' US of A!
Vessel Name: Pau Hana
Vessel Model: 1989 PT52 Overseas Yachtfisher
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,647
Quote:
Originally Posted by ksanders View Post
A couple of hints I figured out on these units:

1. The furnace can be mounted either direction. Choose the direction where the components are to the front. This may sound like a no brainer, but with the cover on, you cant really see the components, so its tempting to mount the unit to make the inlet and outlet air easier to duct.

2. mount the heater with some space below the unit. The reason is that if you loosen the two screws on the lower sides you can drop the cover off of the unit, but it goes downward.

3. do not secure the fuel hose to the lower housing with the supplied adel clamp.

If you do these three things you'll have an installation that will be easy to service with the heater still installed.


Pete, if you have any issues or questions, I'd be happy to help. Im at work but have my cell.
Excellent tips. Kevin- thanks!
__________________

__________________
Peter- Marine Insurance Guru & tuna fishing addict!

1989 52' PT Overseas yachtfisher
Pau Hana is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:46 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012