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Old 09-27-2012, 12:34 PM   #21
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I read the Safe Propane Installation link, and while I agree that many of the older systems installed in Taiwan built boats among others could be "more safe", it is a bit extreme to call them all dangerous. Safety is a relative thing. The U.S. Coast Guard and Transport Canada base their safety rulemaking on the safety record of systems in the field, not on the latest and greatest ABYC criteria. Rulemaking must pass a cost/benefit analysis and a public comment process. If there was a serious, documented safety issue with these older installations, there would be rulemaking to force updates. There is not. Transport Canada is not sitting on their "hands" on this, they are doing what makes sense....nothing. Thank goodness that SAMS/NAMS is not in charge of rulemaking...there wouldn't be a pleasure boat industry.

Unfortunately, many SAMS/NAMS inspectors seem to believe that virtually every system in a 30-40 year old boat should be updated to the latest ABYC standard. As a result, insurance surveyors are driving up the cost of insurance and boat ownership through this wrong headed sort of thinking. I refuse to hire a SAMS/NAMS surveyor for this very reason.


Are items like high water alarms for "larger pleasure vessels " recomended by ABYC yet ? I seem to see a lot of vessels dock side with water issues in the basement. The odd boat with that alarm gets my attention along with many I note when that boot stripe is under water. But I have only delt with a fume alarm a few times. Usualy they are false or from gas being stored in a not so smart location. Just my experiences. However turning the tank off works well when not in use IMO.

Also is ABYC realy not just a building standard that gets wrongly applied to old vessels by surveyors that realy have no idea to the intent of the standards.

Just more stuff that makes me go HMMMMMMM.
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Old 09-27-2012, 12:40 PM   #22
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My favorite systems for cooking are all electric. With induction (a great invention and a logical and safe replacement for LPG)) or electric cooktops and convection microwaves, 30 amp dockpower or a small genset is quite sufficient. LPG can easily be surpassed for overall convenience.
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Old 09-27-2012, 01:06 PM   #23
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Electric coocktops and ovens do not work well when away from a dock without a genset. If you have a genset and run it all the time or don't mind starting it up to use the coocktop, electric is OK.

My personal prefference is gas, at home or on the water. I find it easier to cook with than an electric stove.
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Old 09-27-2012, 01:43 PM   #24
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Ron

Two years at home we threw out our gas stoves and ovens and went with induction tops and convection electric ovens. What a great move for us.

As a PS, some of us have gensets on our boats.
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Old 09-27-2012, 02:06 PM   #25
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Ron

Two years at home we threw out our gas stoves and ovens and went with induction tops and convection electric ovens. What a great move for us.

As a PS, some of us have gensets on our boats.
That's fine and it's your choice. That's why all the different options are available.

Most chefs seem to like gas cooktops. I won't try to call myself a chef, but I can cook much easier and better on gas than on my inlaw's electric stove. It's easier for me to control the heat.

I do have a dual fuel range at home so my oven is electric. Electric works much better for self cleaning and the temperature is more even.

You are correct, some folks have gensets on their boats. Some do not. We should take a poll.
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Old 09-27-2012, 09:27 PM   #26
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Most professional chefs prefer gas to electric for cooking for a variety of reasons. A few years ago I was hired to write a coffee-table cookbook for a 120' corporate yacht in partnership with the yacht's chef. The yacht had an all-electric galley even to the point of having a huge electric grill. One of my first questions to him was why electric, since I had heard most pros greatly prefer gas.

He told me he preferred gas, too, and did not like cooking with electric appliances. But the way this boat was used it would have had to carry a lot of propane or gas which meant having someplace to carry it, and it was not practical or in some cases even possible to refill tanks when they got low or ran out. So electric was the logistically the most practical way to go. The yacht had two big Northern Light generators, one shrouded and muffled to be virtually silent in operation.

When the galley of the yacht had been totally redesigned and re-equipped some years earlier the chef had selected a commercial grade cooktop and ovens because, he told me, they get much hotter and have much better temperature control throughout their range than home-type appliances.

But he still preferred gas.
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Old 09-28-2012, 12:22 PM   #27
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[QUOTE=skidgear;104880]I read the Safe Propane Installation link, and while I agree that many of the older systems installed in Taiwan built boats among others could be "more safe", it is a bit extreme to call them all dangerous. Safety is a relative thing. The U.S. Coast Guard and Transport Canada base their safety rulemaking on the safety record of systems in the field, not on the latest and greatest ABYC criteria. Rulemaking must pass a cost/benefit analysis and a public comment process. If there was a serious, documented safety issue with these older installations, there would be rulemaking to force updates. There is not. Transport Canada is not sitting on their "hands" on this, they are doing what makes sense....nothing. QUOTE]

Transport Canada does not investigate boating accidents and the Transportation Safety Board of Canada does not investigate pleasure craft incidents unless a commercial vessel is involved. The USCG investigates on water incidents and does not investigate "marina" incidents and does not even have such a category in their database (available on line at uscgboatin.org).

Since the vast majority of boat sinkings, fires and explosions happen in harbour they are investigated locally by various fire departments and police in both US and Canada and these folks do not have a relevent database. The insurance companies keep their own records but again there is no centralized database..... maybe this is why some charge higher rates if a fixed propane system is installed and some will not insure boats with propane furnaces (very wise from what I have seen).

Point being .... no one knows how many LPG incidents occur on boats.
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Old 09-28-2012, 02:07 PM   #28
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Transport Canada does not investigate boating accidents and the Transportation Safety Board of Canada does not investigate pleasure craft incidents unless a commercial vessel is involved. The USCG investigates on water incidents and does not investigate "marina" incidents and does not even have such a category in their database (available on line at uscgboatin.org).

Since the vast majority of boat sinkings, fires and explosions happen in harbour they are investigated locally by various fire departments and police in both US and Canada and these folks do not have a relevent database. The insurance companies keep their own records but again there is no centralized database..... maybe this is why some charge higher rates if a fixed propane system is installed and some will not insure boats with propane furnaces (very wise from what I have seen).

Point being .... no one knows how many LPG incidents occur on boats.[/QUOTE]


Look carefully at the 2011 report in the statistics section of the link. The introductory material specifically states that marina and harbor incidents/accidents are mandatory reporting items if the cause is attributable to failure of on-board machinery or equipment (paraphrasing the regulation). That would include heating and cooking systems. Sound data are indeed available, at least from the USCG.
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Old 09-28-2012, 03:42 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by skidgear View Post
Transport Canada does not investigate boating accidents and the Transportation Safety Board of Canada does not investigate pleasure craft incidents unless a commercial vessel is involved. The USCG investigates on water incidents and does not investigate "marina" incidents and does not even have such a category in their database (available on line at uscgboatin.org).

Since the vast majority of boat sinkings, fires and explosions happen in harbour they are investigated locally by various fire departments and police in both US and Canada and these folks do not have a relevent database. The insurance companies keep their own records but again there is no centralized database..... maybe this is why some charge higher rates if a fixed propane system is installed and some will not insure boats with propane furnaces (very wise from what I have seen).

Point being .... no one knows how many LPG incidents occur on boats.

Look carefully at the 2011 report in the statistics section of the link. The introductory material specifically states that marina and harbor incidents/accidents are mandatory reporting items if the cause is attributable to failure of on-board machinery or equipment (paraphrasing the regulation). That would include heating and cooking systems. Sound data are indeed available, at least from the USCG.[/QUOTE]

From the USCGboating.org site ..."Federal law requires the operator Ė or owner, if the operator is deceased or unable to make the report Ė to file a boating accident report with the State reporting authority when, as a result of an occurrence that involves a boat or its equipment"

Note the requirement is to report to "State Authorities" (not USCG) who do not have a joint database of incidents. Also note you will not find USCG on hundreds of inland lakes making it impossible to investigate. Suggest you take a look at their statistics and think ytou'll find there is no such category defining at dock incidents.
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Old 09-28-2012, 04:22 PM   #30
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Look carefully at the 2011 report in the statistics section of the link. The introductory material specifically states that marina and harbor incidents/accidents are mandatory reporting items if the cause is attributable to failure of on-board machinery or equipment (paraphrasing the regulation). That would include heating and cooking systems. Sound data are indeed available, at least from the USCG.
From the USCGboating.org site ..."Federal law requires the operator – or owner, if the operator is deceased or unable to make the report – to file a boating accident report with the State reporting authority when, as a result of an occurrence that involves a boat or its equipment"

Note the requirement is to report to "State Authorities" (not USCG) who do not have a joint database of incidents. Also note you will not find USCG on hundreds of inland lakes making it impossible to investigate. Suggest you take a look at their statistics and think ytou'll find there is no such category defining at dock incidents.[/QUOTE]


Read the introductory paragraph to the 2011 summary report. It specifically states that the Coast Guard receives input from every State, Territory and the District of Columbia and the results are published in this report. States, etc. have 30 days to forward their data to the Coast Guard. The report also specifically states that "fire and explosions that occur underway and while anchored, moored, or docked if the fire resulted from the vessel or the vessel equipment" are included in the report. Appears to me that they're not in the 2011 report, because they didn't happen...not because you don't see a "category" for them. The data are generally organized by primary cause factor, not whether they happen at the dock or underway.

By the way, I recognize that there are poorly maintained and goofball owner installed systems out there. But there are also many perfectly safe original factory systems on 30-40 year old boats. Might not have the latest top loading sealed cannister, but that doesn't make them inherently unsafe.
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Old 09-28-2012, 04:41 PM   #31
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Carbide cannon.
I haven't seen one of those since I was a kid.
'Cool as heck. Big fun.

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Old 10-02-2012, 01:43 AM   #32
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Speaking of cannons, you guys should see Giggitoni's 100 year old cannon! He fired it in his backyard for markpierce and me a few weeks ago.

Ray, have you got a video of that monster going off?
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Old 10-02-2012, 06:53 AM   #33
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small genset is quite sufficient. LPG can easily be surpassed for overall convenience.

For you perhaps,

But your neighbors in an anchorage may not find the noise and stink convenient.
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Old 10-02-2012, 12:01 PM   #34
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Electric verses gas for cooking / heat on board. The reality is that most pleasure cruiser fires are electric start and can be fed by gas / propane or any fuel including cooking grease.

To suggest that one is safer than another is unsound. But to suggest one instalation is better than another makes ya look , take notes.

From co poisoning to soleniods being charged from melting wires etc. there are many risks in pleasure cruising.

Some surveyors and insurance companies discount lots of items from experience, and some from lack of actual knowledge.

Like most here I have on board several electrical systems. Systems like AC, DC, gen, batteries, alts etc. All have the chance to fail in a bad way.

Most also have fuels from deisel to gas to propane even oils and cleaners on board. All have the chance to open doors to failures in a bad way.

You can pick your poison but usualy we stock up on most , if not all the above.

I like propane for cooking , I like land based AC and or , deisel fired pot furnce for heat. I like gas for the tender , portable gen and chain saw. Little propane bottles for the BBQ and laterns at the beach. I have oil and cleaners that are flamable. Sound familiar ?
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Old 10-21-2012, 07:38 PM   #35
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The previous posters have comprehensively covered the US and Caribbean. But the original poster said (did he mean?) Globally.

I can speak to Europe (Mediterranean) and Asia. Propane is generally NOT available, however butane is. The containers are lighter construction and due to the different characteristics of propane you will have to change to a different regulator and fittings - however in my experience my Magma BBQ and my Force 10 Range worked well on butano. The culture of refilling is different with the use of cheap steel tanks very prevalant and no refilling, you exchange your blue painted butane tank for another. In Turkey we received a number of dubious rusted/repainted tanks and were glad that our locker was tucked into the stern on deck of our Sailboat. All worked well and when we returned to the US we just replaced the outboard regulator and fitting with the original fittings and plugged in our original propane tanks.
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Old 03-15-2013, 03:46 PM   #36
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Incorrect propane installation

It seems like more than 70% are installed incorrectly. Although I like propane to cook we are thinking of switching to electric for the galley. It's not just the money for the locker but to run a continuous new line in a 27 year old boat will take a lot of work as I think the lines of these Taiwanese boats were laid out during the build.
Does anyone have and cons to the electric, such as tremendous draw. I'm not going to be baking cakes or a turkey. I have always got by for 20+ years on a single burner butane on my smaller boat with gourmet meals (food always tastes great on a boat)
Also is we stay with the propane it can power the fridge.

Thanks Chris
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Old 03-15-2013, 04:37 PM   #37
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I have a 3 burner seaward princess electric stove with oven & I think it works great. When I'am anchored out running the gen a couple times a day to cook breakfast & dinner will keep the batteries up. I haven't got a small butane single burner but have thought about it for that early am coffee & no gen noise. I do have a toaster oven that gets a workout I've found it's easier to use it than the built in & it does as good or better job with less heat added to the boat in summer weather. Besides its good to exercise the gen to keep it in operating condition. Good luck
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Old 03-15-2013, 09:02 PM   #38
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It seems like more than 70% are installed incorrectly. Although I like propane to cook we are thinking of switching to electric for the galley. It's not just the money for the locker but to run a continuous new line in a 27 year old boat will take a lot of work as I think the lines of these Taiwanese boats were laid out during the build.
Does anyone have and cons to the electric, such as tremendous draw. I'm not going to be baking cakes or a turkey. I have always got by for 20+ years on a single burner butane on my smaller boat with gourmet meals (food always tastes great on a boat)
Also is we stay with the propane it can power the fridge.

Thanks Chris
Really depends on how you boat and what electrical systems besides a stove you use.
I have twin 30 amp that Iím upgrading to a 50 amp and I will still switch to propane no matter how difficult it is.
I donít like having to shut off the hot water heater and other big draw systems every time I want to cook. Guess it depends on what inconvenience you can live with or not.
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Old 03-15-2013, 09:11 PM   #39
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Hi
Can I ask were you have your propane tank. Having such problems with trying to install the proper way
Chris
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Old 03-15-2013, 09:16 PM   #40
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Hi
Can I ask were you have your propane tank. Having such problems with trying to install the proper way
Chris
If you are asking me...I will probably store them either in my flybridge fairing or a standard exterior container like you see on RV Trailers that will be plumbed IAW ABYC safety suggestions. Plus a sniffer in the bilge.
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