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Old 11-20-2012, 04:19 PM   #1
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Propane Bottle Location Requirements

Hmm am I being paranoid to worry about putting it in the area behind the steering area? The area I am thinking of is what we call "the brow". My concern is that there are holes (wire chases) in the floor of that area that open into the saloon. Is there a chance of propane leaking into the saloon? Sorry if I am being ignorant. We have one locker in the flybridge that is completly sealed off but there is no drain. It seems about the right size for two propane bottles. Not sure if that was what it was meant for. But it seems a bit of a long run for a propane line to the galley so maybe it just "is what it is" no purpose intended for it.

When we bought the boat there was actually a full size propane bottle on the sundeck, rigged up to the BBQ, and the surveryor told us that we had to remove that, it had to be in a locker. Not sure if that is for ABYC standards or insurance or what?

I am VERY interested in switching to a propane stove as it is a royal pain to have to fire up the generator to cook when we are anchored out, so I really appreciate the dialog on this.

My boat is an overseas PT 35 ('84) so I'd expect some design similarities...
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Old 11-20-2012, 04:31 PM   #2
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Greetings,
Ms. Jennifer. Nope, you're NOT being ignorant. Propane will seep down into the saloon through the wire chases. Hmmmm....cute AND smart! If you have a locker which may serve, put in a vent and use it keeping in mind the vent must allow drainage of any accumulated propane with NO chance what-so-ever of it entering the interior of the boat.
I'm not familiar with the regulations but I see no reason why a tank could not be mounted in the open on your flybridge. Any space to mount a purpose built propane locker?
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Old 11-20-2012, 04:40 PM   #3
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Thanks RTF. I will have to look at the survey to see what the issue was with the propane bottles. I really don't have room to add anything but can probably follow Pau Hana's lead and repurpose some of the existing storage. thank you both for the encouragement to look into this solution further.
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Old 11-20-2012, 04:58 PM   #4
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Greetings,
No hay problema Ms. J. but if ,as you say, there was already a bottle on the sundeck (sorry, I meant sundeck instead of flybridge in my last post), maybe a single bottle locker wouldn't take up much more footprint.
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Old 11-20-2012, 05:15 PM   #5
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There is no requirement to have the bottles in a locker. The standards call for a means to secure the bottle(s) so they won't roll around, protection from the weather (whatever that means), and protection from damage to the valves and fittings.

A simple cover that prevents rain, boarding seas, and other falling objects from reaching the top of the tanks will suffice.

IF a locker is provided, inside the boat or out, then it must meet the ventilation standards.

Beware those who wield little plastic hammers and develop rules in their spare time.
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Old 11-20-2012, 05:34 PM   #6
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[QUOTE=RickB;114126]There is no requirement to have the bottles in a locker. The standards call for a means to secure the bottle(s) so they won't roll around, protection from the weather (whatever that means), and protection from damage to the valves and fittings.[\QUOTE]

Depends on what you mean by "standards" .. ABYC standards do require a top loading gasketed, dedicated locker with dedicated drainage from the bottom of the locker to outboard of the hull. I'd suggest you take a look at Safe Boat Propane Installations that will show you how to install as safe and ABYC compliant system (your ins. co. will love you)
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Old 11-20-2012, 08:40 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boatpoker View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickB View Post
There is no requirement to have the bottles in a locker. The standards call for a means to secure the bottle(s) so they won't roll around, protection from the weather (whatever that means), and protection from damage to the valves and fittings.
Depends on what you mean by "standards" .. ABYC standards do require a top loading gasketed, dedicated locker with dedicated drainage from the bottom of the locker to outboard of the hull. I'd suggest you take a look at Safe Boat Propane Installations that will show you how to install as safe and ABYC compliant system (your ins. co. will love you)
Written like a surveyor! An Internet article by another surveyor is not an ABYC standard. I suggest you read and understand them before telling others what they "require."

Read the ABYC standards, they define how a locker should be constructed when one is used, they do not require a locker be used or installed when the bottles are mounted in such a way that leaking vapors cannot collect or flow into a closed space.
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Old 11-20-2012, 08:47 PM   #8
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[QUOTE=RickB;114183]
Quote:
Originally Posted by boatpoker View Post

Written like a surveyor! An Internet article by another surveyor is not an ABYC standard. I suggest you read and understand them before telling others what they "require."

Read the ABYC standards, they define how a locker should be constructed when one is used, they do not require a locker be used or installed when the bottles are mounted in such a way that leaking vapors cannot collect or flow into a closed space.
You are quite simply wrong. My ABYC number is 10952 with standards certification, what's yours ?
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Old 11-20-2012, 08:52 PM   #9
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You are quite simply wrong. My ABYC number is 10952 with standards certification, what's yours ?
All you have to do is quote the ABYC statement that says a locker is required and/or gas bottles must be in a locker.
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Old 11-20-2012, 08:58 PM   #10
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Greetings,
Mr. Rick B. Watch out! He's got a number.
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Old 11-20-2012, 09:03 PM   #11
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[QUOTE=RickB;114191]
Quote:
Originally Posted by boatpoker View Post

All you have to do is quote the ABYC statement that says a locker is required and/or gas bottles must be in a locker.
You did not read far enough ...

1.7.6.1 LPG cylinders, cylinder valves, regulating equipment, and safety devices shall be readily accessible, secured for sea conditions, and protected from the weather and against mechanical damage, and shall be
1.7.6.1.1 installed in a ventilated location on the exterior of the boat where escaping gases will flow directly overboard, or
1.7.6.1.2 if the escaping vapors will not flow directly overboard, the cylinder shall be installed in a dedicated locker meeting the requirements of A-1.8.
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Old 11-20-2012, 09:10 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by boatpoker View Post

You did not read far enough ...

1.7.6.1 LPG cylinders, cylinder valves, regulating equipment, and safety devices shall be readily accessible, secured for sea conditions, and protected from the weather and against mechanical damage, and shall be
1.7.6.1.1 installed in a ventilated location on the exterior of the boat where escaping gases will flow directly overboard, or
1.7.6.1.2 if the escaping vapors will not flow directly overboard, the cylinder shall be installed in a dedicated locker meeting the requirements of A-1.8.
In other words, by your own quote. A locker is NOT required.
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Old 11-20-2012, 09:12 PM   #13
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In other words, by your own quote. A locker is NOT required.

Sorry, I can't help with your lack of literacy skills or inability to understand the difference between overboard and inboard.
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Old 11-20-2012, 09:25 PM   #14
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Perhaps you should comprehend the code you cite?

1.7.6.1.1 installed in a ventilated location on the exterior of the boat where escaping gases will flow directly overboard, or

What part of that states you MUST be mounted within a cabinet?

I'll give you a hint. The part following the comma ONLY applies if the requirement above can NOT be satisfied.
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Old 11-20-2012, 09:29 PM   #15
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Flow directly "overboard" as defined by ABYC means outside the hull. If you mount your tanks outboard on your stern rail then of course you do not need a locker.
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Old 11-20-2012, 09:42 PM   #16
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Okay, you've softened your stance... a little.

The problem with blanket statements is they tend to put the one making them into a box that is impossible to see their way out of. We can find many boats designed in such a way to easily allow roof top tank installations without a cabinet that would not leak "into" the hull but safely overboard.

FWIW, I completely agree with the ABYC codes you cited. They make perfect sense to me professionally. Where we disagree is in too narrow an interpretation. Lockers designed according to your web link are not required on every installation, only some.
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Old 11-20-2012, 10:02 PM   #17
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He very carefully avoided the "or" between 1.7.6.11 and 1.7.6.1.2 because it shot him off his silly little ABYC certified pony.

This, folks, is a great example of why you should be very careful when one of these guys tells you that you "must" comply with some standard or other that many of them don't know or understand themselves.

The wording of these non binding standards is carefully written to allow a great deal of leeway in complying with the intent. They are not laws and are written to aid manufacturers in producing a safe boat to sell to the public. They do not govern how you operate or outfit your boat and much to their regret, toy boat "surveyors" do not have the right to approve or disapprove a project or technique or installation. Be very careful who you hire, watch him closely, and make him explain and reference anything he finds "not up to standard."

As you have just seen, claiming to hold some certificate is meaningless if the holder is incapable of understanding the standards he professes to uphold.
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Old 11-20-2012, 10:17 PM   #18
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Greetings,
"As you have just seen, claiming to hold some certificate is meaningless if the holder is incapable of understanding the standards he professes to uphold". So just like politicians huh?
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Old 11-21-2012, 05:14 AM   #19
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With all due respect ...
And with the same due respect, the "argument" is in reference to a thread participant stating that she was told that her openly mounted bottles were not allowed. This statement by a "surveyor" may or may not be correct in her case.

The point being, "surveyors" are frequently wrong, and she should learn which standards apply in what conditions before spending money to comply with what may be nothing more than ill-informed opinion.

Correct information regarding the applicable standard was provided but instantly and rudely refuted by one who claimed to have special knowledge that, as is all too common in the world of small boat surveyors, incorrect. That type of misinformation is costly to the readers of this site.

Between surveyors and insurance salesmen, the boat owner is regularly subject to needless expense caused by lack of knowledge and misinformation posted on sites such as this.

Personally, I think that if one person is saved a few hundred or a few thousand dollars by being provided correct information then it makes this site much more relevant and valuable. I share your opinion of those who post misinformation and attempt to back it up with "certifications" or other claims of insider knowledge that are easily proven wrong. They are the ones you should be concerned about.
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Old 11-21-2012, 06:34 AM   #20
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No, the point is you are the one who brought up Standards and based your statement on one sentence in that Standard. There have ben several mentions of bottles stored under the flying bridge coaming which exposes the tanks to a non-ignition protected enviornment ... non-compliant. Drains from this area will inevitably allow leakage to drain off above deckhouse doors and windows ... non-compliant. Raceways for throttle/shift controls and electrical systems run down to the engine compartment ... non-compliant. There are a number of other issues. I suppose if you started with a clean sheet you may be able to design a compliant boat around a lockerless propane bottle.
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