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Old 12-23-2012, 05:29 PM   #161
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Requirements? What requirements? Who is requiring whom to do what?
Re-read my post above. (or not)

Each manufacturer self certifies their own boats to meet USCG standards. The NMMA then verifies that each boat model meets both USCG and ABYC standards and requirements.

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If you take that personally then maybe boat sales are something you should avoid.
Nothing personal about it. Don't make it that way.

You can hang on semantics, but the ABYC is the leader in establishing best practices, standards and requirements for boat manufacturers. Each individual can try to maintain their vessel within those standards, and expect that a surveyor understands those and bases his recommendations and appraisals on them.
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Old 12-23-2012, 05:38 PM   #162
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NMMA now ... more marketing horse apples, nothing more, nothing less.

Certification - Benefits of Certification

The boat has to meet certain, and very few USCG requirements. Everything else is fluff and marketing.

Those who attempt to convince the boating public that they have just bought the equivalent of a certificated aircraft and must conform to a set of standards in order to maintain the legal authority to operate it have an agenda of their own and that agenda may or may not include a benevolent motive to improve marine safety.
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Old 12-23-2012, 05:53 PM   #163
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I can see we're not going to agree on this.

You obviously have a problem with any standards of design being placed on boats. Good luck with that.
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Old 12-23-2012, 05:53 PM   #164
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I'd certainly want $150 or so bucks off a boat if it still had wing nuts on the batteries...geeezzz....what other safety items are glossed over on that vessel..surveyor's recommendation or not!!!!...

....certainly not to today's standards!!!!
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Old 12-23-2012, 07:32 PM   #165
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My very first surveyor split his recommendations into three categories, which made total sense. I've never seen another do it this way. I can't remember the exact terminology, but it was something like this:

1. Items which affect the safety and operability of the vessel.
2. Items which are recommended to fix/change/upgrade.
3. Items which would be nice to do.

The insurance company was only concerned with #1.

Was he unique or have surveyors just quit doing this? I've had some crazy recommendations on more recent surveys like "No compass deviation card sighted, recommend making one". He didn't even ask.
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Old 12-23-2012, 07:54 PM   #166
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I can see we're not going to agree on this.

You obviously have a problem with any standards of design being placed on boats. Good luck with that.
Far from it, I make my living ensuring that yachts meet class and flag requirements. That means I know the difference between legitimate national and international standards of construction, repair, and operation of vessels and their systems and the drivel spat out by marketing departments and toy boat surveyors. It also means I am really good at spotting horsepucky when I see it thrown around.
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Old 12-23-2012, 07:57 PM   #167
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IMO a major problem with surveyors is self protection from litigation/claims. Thus the surveyor`s liability exclusions set out in the report may take up more space than the report itself. I suspect those exclusions are foisted on the surveyor by his liability insurer.
Then the surveyor takes it a step further by picking faults and referring to standards, compulsory or not, to ensure he raises any possible defect or departure from "standards" so he omits nothing he might otherwise be liable for. He is protected, and he is not paying for the work he says needs doing.I would say that is his motivation, rather than inventing work to send to his mates.
My limited experience is specialist marine insurers will look at and discuss survey issues in the course of effecting cover. I`m equally sure non expert insurers might stick to the letter of the survey. You are better off with a specialist insurer who knows bow from stern.
A further thought on surveyors, if the surveyor is ok with it, always be present for the survey and you will learn more about your boat; if he is not ok with it, consider changing surveyors
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Old 12-23-2012, 08:04 PM   #168
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I'd certainly want $150 or so bucks off a boat if it still had wing nuts on the batteries...geeezzz....what other safety items are glossed over on that vessel..surveyor's recommendation or not!!!!...

....certainly not to today's standards!!!!
Yep. I was getting the boat at about half market value as it was. I could care less if it was bailing wire holding them down.

I was quite impressed by the way the survey was written and the thoroughness in it's descriptions. All recommendations were based on ABYC guidelines and none were inflated or exaggerated.
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Old 12-23-2012, 08:05 PM   #169
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It also means I am really good at spotting horsepucky when I see it thrown around.
Check your shoes.
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Old 12-23-2012, 08:22 PM   #170
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Yep. I was getting the boat at about half market value as it was. I could care less if it was bailing wire holding them down.

I was quite impressed by the way the survey was written and the thoroughness in it's descriptions. All recommendations were based on ABYC guidelines and none were inflated or exaggerated.
Right over your head.....
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Old 12-23-2012, 09:36 PM   #171
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How many more do you need than offered up in this thread?
My thought is that it's something in the rain that is causing it.
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Old 12-23-2012, 10:08 PM   #172
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IMO a major problem with surveyors is self protection from litigation/claims. Thus the surveyor`s liability exclusions set out in the report may take up more space than the report itself. I suspect those exclusions are foisted on the surveyor by his liability insurer.
Then the surveyor takes it a step further by picking faults and referring to standards, compulsory or not, to ensure he raises any possible defect or departure from "standards" so he omits nothing he might otherwise be liable for. He is protected, and he is not paying for the work he says needs doing.I would say that is his motivation, rather than inventing work to send to his mates.
My limited experience is specialist marine insurers will look at and discuss survey issues in the course of effecting cover. I`m equally sure non expert insurers might stick to the letter of the survey. You are better off with a specialist insurer who knows bow from stern.
A further thought on surveyors, if the surveyor is ok with it, always be present for the survey and you will learn more about your boat; if he is not ok with it, consider changing surveyors
OMG... Brice: With all due respect to you suggestion for "kindly" handling what I put in bold above. I recommend that if ANY person working in ANY way on your boat or other possission is not OK with you being present, especially a surveyor, adjustor, or other property-value-judge, that that person be immediately replaced with some one that is OK with you being present and asking any question you please. Their service was hired by you and they or their company is working for you. IMHO
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Old 12-23-2012, 10:24 PM   #173
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OMG... Brice: With all due respect to you suggestion for "kindly" handling what I put in bold above. I recommend that if ANY person working in ANY way on your boat or other possission is not OK with you being present, especially a surveyor, adjustor, or other property-value-judge, that that person be immediately replaced with some one that is OK with you being present and asking any question you please. Their service was hired by you and they or their company is working for you. IMHO
Fair comment Art, I was being gentle; what I really wanted to convey was you learn more at the inspection than you ever learn reading the report. I have only used pre purchase surveyors happy to have you at the inspection, one practically insists on it, but I understand there are some who are not so happy.
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Old 12-24-2012, 03:25 AM   #174
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My very first surveyor split his recommendations into three categories, which made total sense. I've never seen another do it this way. I can't remember the exact terminology, but it was something like this:

1. Items which affect the safety and operability of the vessel.
2. Items which are recommended to fix/change/upgrade.
3. Items which would be nice to do.

The insurance company was only concerned with #1.
This is exactly what the surveyor we hired to do the hull survey on our boat did, and in fact his survey report sheet was divided up in this way. We still have a copy of this survey on the boat.

I will add that my wife, I, our broker, and our friend in the marine diesel/generator manufacturing industry (Northern Lights/Lugger) whose expenses we paid to go with us to California to check out the boat were present all through both the engine and hull surveys and what Bruce says is right on the money. My wife and I leaned a hell of a lot from both surveyors.
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Old 12-24-2012, 09:30 AM   #175
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I guess the feeling about surveyors who use ABYC requirements fall into two schools of thought here.

Either you;

A: Hate them and think they should not mention anything that fails to meet those standards.

B: You believe in the ABYC standards and want the surveyor to grade the boat against those requirements.

Maybe when you meet your surveyor, you could ask that he not mention anything that does not meet ABYC, NMEA, NEMA, NMMA, UL or SAMS requirements... only USCG violations. Think of all the paper you could save.

I enjoyed my survey. There were a few small things I had not noticed, and I learned as we explored around. The owner of the boat was deceased, so there was no one familiar with the boat. It was money well spent, and I appreciated the logic behind the ABYC requirements and work towards getting aligned to those.
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Old 12-24-2012, 09:54 AM   #176
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Not everyone falls into those two categories. Shades of gray, not black and white. Realistic and practical vs. strict enforcement.
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Old 12-24-2012, 10:47 AM   #177
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When I hire someone to perform a non advocate review like a boat survey, I want to know what they'll be using to make their comments.

I work in aerospace engineering and 90% of problems we encounter can be tracked back to lack of clear requirements. When I say "requirements" I'm not talking about legal boundaries. I'm talking about best practices in design engineering and safety. A surveyor who understands the requirements that were in place at the time of manufacture can make objective comments about things that might be outside of my knowledge.

For example: Teak decking. Not many ABYC recommendations there, but he was able to observe caulking that would need to be re-sealed.

Wiring colors. Obviously a concern as much of my wiring is before any codes had been put in place. I have AC wiring running to terminations right alongside my DC terminations. Not safe at all, and something I will fix. Totally OK when this boat was built.

The list goes on, but the requirements in 1980 weren't as clear... or as well thought out as they are now. Red and Yellow DC wiring makes GREAT sense. As I replace wiring, I stick to these new requirements, but that doesn't mean an entire boat needs to be re-wired.
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Old 12-24-2012, 11:01 AM   #178
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I guess the feeling about surveyors who use ABYC requirements fall into two schools of thought here.
Your repetitive use of the word "requirement" following the abbreviation ABYC is what destroys your argument and is a great example of how "surveyors" mislead boat owners and cost them a great deal of unnecessary time, money, and angst. It also indicates that you don't know what you are talking about. Why you continue to use that word shows you are intentionally trying to mislead the readers on this site. Why you do that is something only you can answer.

There are no ABYC "requirements" for pleasure vessels and only a very very few ABYC recommended standards have been adapted "by reference" by the CG to apply to small boats in commercial use.

Why anyone would in effect beg for private industry or government regulation of their hobby is beyond me. If you are so afraid of boating that you need an outside bunch to tell you if you are "safe" or not then find another hobby. Stamp collecting might be a good alternative.

There is a place in the boating world for surveyors, unfortunately most of the ones who go around whacking toy boats with little plastic hammers don't know sheeeite about the stuff they are looking at and think that tossing out a bunch of nonsense about "requirements" will make them sound like they do. Anyone who uses ABYC and requirements in the same sentence is a fraud and a fool or has some other agenda that is not related to the owner's best interest.

If you want to be regulated, or feel an overpowering need to be inspected and approved, get a bigger boat, one with a class certificate issued by an IACS member organization and apply for a USCG certificate of inspection. If your boat is flagged outside the USA, apply to your national maritime authority for commercial registration and jump through their hoops. They will be delighted to regulate you till you choke.

Personally, I kind of like that fact that the alphabet soup of maritime regulators exist. Between the IMO, IACS, and Flag State regs and regulators I make a very good living traveling the world to spend time on really big yachts in really nice places making sure that the owner isn't nailed because some operational or statutory item is out of place or a technical matter is improperly attended or documented.

What I don't have time for is amateurs pretending they are arbiters of non-existent rules in order to gain control over hobbyists. That is something about boating that I will never understand.
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Old 12-24-2012, 11:26 AM   #179
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You seem to take most things to a personal level so quickly.

Are you saying I am a fool? If so... would you be so inclined if we were standing on the dock talking about this with me?

As far as the word "requirement", I use this in my profession every day, I fully understand it's meaning.

REQUIREMENTS in an engineering sense, are the very basis for STANDARDS. Here are the ABYC REQUIREMENTS in order to be COMPLIANT to an industry adopted STANDARD. I do not use the word REQUIREMENT to imply MANDATORY. These STANDARDS are completely VOLUNTARY, but are recognized by an industry, the Coast Guard and MOST boaters as the best recommended practices available to date.

A-1 (ANS) Marine Liquified Petroleum Gas (LPG) Systems

Here's a link to the 1993 revision of this document:

https://law.resource.org/pub/us/cfr/....A-01.1993.pdf

Disclaimer: A inadequate grasp of the English language, or a difficulty accepting industry guidance may preclude gaining insight from any of the above.
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Old 12-24-2012, 12:24 PM   #180
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As far as the word "requirement", I use this in my profession every day, I fully understand it's meaning.
Apparently not.

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Here are the ABYC REQUIREMENTS in order to be COMPLIANT to an industry adopted STANDARD.
ABYC does not hold regulatory authority over the recreational boating industry. That private group does not have authority to enforce compliance with its suggested means or methods. Any surveyor who claims otherwise is a fraud.

If you are having difficulties with the language and its application to the maritime world, perhaps if I put it in an aeronautical context for you:

A privately owned and operated recreational vessel could be described in the same manner as an ultralight aircraft. It falls under the overall regulation of the national aviation authority but only to the extent that all flying machines are subject to certain legal restraints. How that ultralight is constructed and maintained is the responsibility of the owner or operator. There might be an ultralight builder's association that has developed and published a set of best practices but that group has no more legal authority over the owner operator than the ABYC does over the readers of this thread.

Many of us who play with recreational boats do so to find relief from the structure that defines most day to day activities. Maybe some find the structure and discipline required to navigate to some self-defined and possibly higher standard a form of relaxation. As the olds saying goes; whatever floats your boat.

Some are obviously pleased to think that they are performing some important and potentially hazardous task and are bouyed by the thought that they are playing in the same pond as the captain of a giant ship or the stars of a Discovery Channel episode. Whichever role you assume is none of my business and I certainly don't take it personally no matter what you choose to do or how you do it.

I do take offense though at those who cycle through this and other sites and claim that holding some "number" or paid-up membership in some club justifies misinforming readers that they must follow certain "requirements" in order to safely pursue their recreational activities. Those who come along and claim that their personal approach to conformity is the best approach or is the only legitimate approach are the worst because they don't know the difference between law and practice.
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