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Old 12-22-2012, 10:01 PM   #141
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There you go again. There are no "requirements" for an owner to comply with any of the ABYC recommendations for recreational boats.

Stop trying to make people think ABYC is a regulatory body and that little plastic hammer wielding surveyors are some kind of safety officer.
First of all... I'll do as I please.

Secondly; there are "requirements". If a manufacturer wants to satisfy to any regulatory body or agency that they are building in compliance with the ABYC, they must meet certain standards. These standards are outlined as ABYC requirements.

Each manufacturer self certifies their own boats to meet USCG standards. The NMMA then verifies that each boat model meets both USCG and ABYC standards.

You're right that individuals do not have to maintain or step up to ABYC, NMNA, NMEA standards or any other, but there is nothing that I have seen that the ABYC recommends that is contrary to safety, or just good practices.

I highly recommend all boaters at least understand what the ABYC recommends and make a responsible decisions from there.
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Old 12-22-2012, 10:11 PM   #142
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Would this get you concerned because my saftey approch is more conserative than yours? My bet is it would if it happend to you in real life.
No. My boat was built in Taiwan in 1980. There are LOTS of things that are done more safely and of a higher quality than they did back then. I have no problem with them and nothing that the surveyor recorded in either of the last two surveys was beyond good advice and would be taken on as such.

Does the boat's wiring meet current ABYC standards? No. Would it be safer if it did? Sure. Will I rip out all the wiring and replace it all? No, it wouldn't be cost effective.
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Old 12-22-2012, 11:09 PM   #143
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No. My boat was built in Taiwan in 1980. There are LOTS of things that are done more safely and of a higher quality than they did back then. I have no problem with them and nothing that the surveyor recorded in either of the last two surveys was beyond good advice and would be taken on as such.

Does the boat's wiring meet current ABYC standards? No. Would it be safer if it did? Sure. Will I rip out all the wiring and replace it all? No, it wouldn't be cost effective.
Ditto, Ditto, Ditto!
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Old 12-23-2012, 12:06 AM   #144
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Boats made in Australia and NZ have Requirements eerily similar to ABYC Suggestions. Many (not all) builders in China today build to ABYC (or stiffer regulations/code) assuming it is a Requirement as their vessels go to Europe, Australia, etc. For a good up to date read on Build Standards go to Nordhavn's site to see how they deal with this issue.
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Old 12-23-2012, 01:38 AM   #145
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Up grading my beloved 1967 Buick Wildcat to today's standards would cost a fortune (heck, probably couldn't be fully accomplished anyway!). Is my Wildcat safe, perfectly kept in its original classic condition? Damn well safer than computer chips that force some newer car models to accelerate till death's may occur, or fires happen due to various items over-heating.

Same with our 1977 Tollycraft tri cabin... all original, important portions of mechanical/electric/plumbing... etc kept in VG condition... She's Doing Just Fine!

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Old 12-23-2012, 03:58 AM   #146
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Our 1973 GB was 25 years old when we bought it. The only reference the hull surveyor made to ABYC standards during the survey was with regards to the boat's then-new stainless steel fuel tanks.

As I've described in another thread, stainless at that time was not an "approved" (aka "recommended") fuel tank material by the ABYC. The surveyor told us this, explained why (variable quality of stainless even within a specific grade, and variable quality of welds made on stainless) but made no mention of the stainless tanks on the survey itself. He told us about the potential issues with stainless tanks as an advisory caution only. He also said he knew boats in the SFO Bay Area that had had stainless tanks for decades with no problems.

He did not make any mention of ABYC standards to us or on the survey with regards to the boat's twenty-five year old original systems, from wiring to propane. He wrote up a number of things, one of which was serious in nature, but none of which were related by him to the ABYC. And none of our subsequent surveys have included any references to ABYC standards or recomendations.

So it all depends on the surveyor one hires.
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Old 12-23-2012, 09:22 AM   #147
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No. My boat was built in Taiwan in 1980. There are LOTS of things that are done more safely and of a higher quality than they did back then. I have no problem with them and nothing that the surveyor recorded in either of the last two surveys was beyond good advice and would be taken on as such.

Does the boat's wiring meet current ABYC standards? No. Would it be safer if it did? Sure. Will I rip out all the wiring and replace it all? No, it wouldn't be cost effective.
I agree with everything you said. But I thought the point that was being made was that sometimes an overzealous surveyor can write up some dumb up grade and cause either a buyer to go south or an insurance company to require unnecessary up grades. In my example you would have lost the sale due to the over reaction form a surveyor. The same guy you were supporting just a post or two before. All in the name of ABYC standards.

If I missunderstood your position then carry on. Well carry on anyway.
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Old 12-23-2012, 09:59 AM   #148
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In my example you would have lost the sale due to the over reaction form a surveyor. The same guy you were supporting just a post or two before.
First of all... if a buyer is depending on the surveyor to make / break their deal I don't necessarily care to deal with them. My last two boats I sold, and the last I bought I went in with some recommendations and ABYC related observations. None were deal-breakers.

Too many people think they will be paying for the survey and getting a price reduction based on survey findings. I am very clear up front that that is not what a survey is for, and I would not be playing those games. We already had a handshake deal and were now looking for a third party confirmation of the quality of the vessel and it's appointments.

This is an excerpt from my last survey. He outlined his system of prioritizing his recommendations:

"Priority I Recommendations" are related to Safety & Regulatory findings and are listed in RED in the report.

"Priority II Recommendations" are related to Maintenance & Standards findings and are listed in BLUE in the report.

"Other Recommendations" are findings that are relatively minor in nature and are listed in Black in the report.

This is an actual finding:

Battery Set Two: There is one battery located in the engine compartment that is a Grp. 8D lead acid battery that services the main engines that is fitted with wing nuts. ABYC 10.8.3 Battery cables and other conductors size 6 AWG and larger shall not be connected to the battery with wing nuts. Recommendation is that batteries be connected with USCG approved terminations not utilizing wing nuts.

That battery terminal is still on my "to-do" list. Will I change it? Most likely. I understand their recommendations and they are good practices. It was also found to be missing GFCI outlets in two wet spaces. I fixed those the first weekend I owned the boat. None of his recommendations were color coded red.
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Old 12-23-2012, 10:20 AM   #149
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But I thought the point that was being made was that sometimes an overzealous surveyor can write up some dumb up grade and cause either a buyer to go south or an insurance company to require unnecessary up grades.
You got it.

For those who are still having problems with the topic, go back to page 1 and see just exactly what "an overzealous surveyor" will say to both to the boat owner and anyone who questions the "surveyor's" competence.
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Old 12-23-2012, 10:53 AM   #150
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For those who are still having problems with the topic, go back to page 1 and see just exactly what "an overzealous surveyor" will say to both to the boat owner and anyone who questions the "surveyor's" competence.
That wasn't my experience. Mine have had great recommendations and were very amenable to our wishes and did nothing that would have jeopardized any sale. They were there to give non-advocate examination of the condition of the boats and their systems.
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Old 12-23-2012, 10:55 AM   #151
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Somesailor said:
"Too many people think they will be paying for the survey and getting a price reduction based on survey findings. I am very clear up front that that is not what a survey is for, and I would not be playing those games."

So what you are saying is WHERE IS AS IS. Sorry, but few if any buy a quality boat portrayed as "bristol" that way. If you represent all systems are in good working order and they are not, it is up to you ot fix it or reduce the price accordingly. If dry rot found in core on fly bridge sides, you were not aware of, same deal fix it or price drops. ETC Your stance is BUYER BEWARE and won't attract too many buyers
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Old 12-23-2012, 11:12 AM   #152
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Somesailor said:
"Too many people think they will be paying for the survey and getting a price reduction based on survey findings. I am very clear up front that that is not what a survey is for, and I would not be playing those games."

So what you are saying is WHERE IS AS IS. Sorry, but few if any buy a quality boat portrayed as "bristol" that way. If you represent all systems are in good working order and they are not, it is up to you ot fix it or reduce the price accordingly. If dry rot found in core on fly bridge sides, you were not aware of, same deal fix it or price drops. ETC Your stance is BUYER BEWARE and won't attract too many buyers
Exactly. And where is it that you find all of these cash buyers. Because any loan company wants a survey and we are back to square one when the survey comes from Mr. Overzealous.

Oh I know where the cash buyers are. In FL they are paying 50% of the real value. Now I get it.
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Old 12-23-2012, 11:18 AM   #153
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Sorry, but few if any buy a quality boat portrayed as "bristol" that way.
By the very definition of your sale, you're advertised as being in "bristol condition." You then are guaranteeing all of those systems and their operation and better be ready for that. You'd have to define "bristol" to me well before I made an offer on your boat for sure.

On mine, all of my boat's systems are in good working order or were described as such BEFORE a survey. I wouldn't waste your time (and $$$) chasing a survey if I knew something and had not disclosed it. I walked each system with the potential buyers and explained things as we came across them.

So yes, they are AS IS - WHERE IS. No surprises found. I know many who think a survey is an excuse to negotiate further. Every boat I have bought and sold went just fine and were on the market no more than weeks. Survey and haul-out are at the expense of the buyer, I eat the cost of sea trials (after a deposit is made).
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Old 12-23-2012, 11:27 AM   #154
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Exactly. And where is it that you find all of these cash buyers.
Mine have all been cash sales.

You guys talk about 'over-zealous" surveyors. But what sort of examples are they pointing out that you believe were outside their scope?

Is pointing out ABYC requirements out of line? Are they not allowed to? Newer boats are built to more stringent safety requirements. What's the problem with recognizing that? They are welcome to go buy a more modern boat if they wish.

To me, an in-depth understanding of ABYC standards and their application to various types of vessels is a huge plus. ABYC and SAMS are both great organizations and I think too many folks with shoddy boats want to blame them for lost sales.
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Old 12-23-2012, 11:52 AM   #155
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You guys talk about 'over-zealous" surveyors. But what sort of examples are they pointing out that you believe were outside their scope?
How many more do you need than offered up in this thread?
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Old 12-23-2012, 01:51 PM   #156
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Surveys ARE MOST CERTAINLY a tool to negotiate price...in fact if you don't want a survey...a lender will want a valuation survey and the insurance company will want a surveyor to re-survey if you want to change the agreed upon value.

To not want to deal with a buyer expressing that sentiment is fine....I wouldn't want to deal with a seller that wouldn't.
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Old 12-23-2012, 03:05 PM   #157
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To not want to deal with a buyer expressing that sentiment is fine....I wouldn't want to deal with a seller that wouldn't.
Again... to each his own. I've just watched people who look at a boat, make an offer and get as far as a survey and think "I'll knock $20K off for this, $5K off for that... and I want this replaced and that repaired before we release payment"

I'd say... "have a great time looking for your next boat"

Just as some of you are complaining about ABYC requirements. The requirements and standards are not the problem. These are old boats. They were not built with those in mind.

If you are looking at a 2008 Grand Banks or Ocean Alexander... it'd better damned sure be aligned with those requirements. It was built to them, and anything that is outside those is unacceptable. If you're looking at a 1980 trawler... you'd better understand that they were built with much less stringent tolerances and requirements. They didn't exist back then and I would LAUGH at the first prospective buyer who expected me to step up to those. BUT... they still exist, and are good recommendations.

The propane locker is a good example. Mine are in the flybridge helm. They are vented, but there are penetrations that needed to be sealed inside that vented into the saloon below. Also, the vent is directly above the door on the port side. If left open, you could discharge leaking propane into the cabin. Both easy fixes and good recommendations. I have since installed a propane leak detector up there as well. It complements the one in the bilge well.
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Old 12-23-2012, 04:33 PM   #158
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If you are looking at a 2008 Grand Banks or Ocean Alexander... it'd better damned sure be aligned with those requirements. It was built to them, and anything that is outside those is unacceptable.
Only if it is rolling off the lot as new, and a 2008 model year is a used boat. Therefore, the previous owner could have done whatever they wanted to the systems in the first four or five years.
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Old 12-23-2012, 05:02 PM   #159
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Just as some of you are complaining about ABYC requirements.
Requirements? What requirements? Who is requiring whom to do what?

If a sea trial uncovers a problem that can be cured by money it is between the seller and the buyer to decide how to effect a cure. Nothing more, nothing less. If you take that personally then maybe boat sales are something you should avoid.

The as is, take it or leave it type of deal generally implies a much lower sales price so the buyer will accept the known or suspected deficiencies. If you present the boat as having working components and it doesn't then don't blame the buyer for asking for a price reduction. He didn't misrepresent the boat, you did, intentionally or otherwise it really doesn't matter.
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Old 12-23-2012, 05:23 PM   #160
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Only if it is rolling off the lot as new, and a 2008 model year is a used boat. Therefore, the previous owner could have done whatever they wanted to the systems in the first four or five years.
It certainly could, but I'd expect the owner to keep the boat within the requirements it was built under. I would not expect a boat of an 80's vintage to meet 2008 standards.

Anything he's done below those manufacturer's requirements have now lowered the value of the boat.
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