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Old 11-29-2012, 09:19 PM   #121
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When we bought our boat almost five years ago there were two tanks under the cowling on the bridge. The surveyor said they had to be moved. We bought a nice teak cooler that was intended for poolside use, put it at the back corner of the bridge deck and put a horizontal tank in. The cooler has a rubber seal, does not require tools to open and vents out of the brass spigot into to open air and not above an opening window. The pictures gives you the idea but it was taken to show the freshly sanded deck.
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Old 12-20-2012, 01:22 PM   #122
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Did someone mention that Thread Creep fellow?
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Old 12-22-2012, 05:56 AM   #123
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ABYC standards are VOLUNTARY....there is no legal requirement to follow them.
There are written to help boat builders build boats to a specific standard.
Most surveyors like to quote these standards knowing that buyers are unaware.
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Old 12-22-2012, 07:05 AM   #124
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and put a horizontal tank in.

Great for a boat that doesn't cruise much , as the refill must be done in person at a refill place.Maybe a taxi ride over and back.

Far easier (tho the propane is more costly) to simply swop 20lb bottles at the nearest gas station 7-11 , or food store.

YRWV
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Old 12-22-2012, 09:15 AM   #125
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ABYC standards are VOLUNTARY....there is no legal requirement to follow them.
There are written to help boat builders build boats to a specific standard.
Most surveyors like to quote these standards knowing that buyers are unaware.
Thanks for reemphasizing this. The word needs to get out about uninformed and often unscrupulous surveyors.
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Old 12-22-2012, 09:34 AM   #126
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The nice thing about surveyors using ABYC recommendations is they are getting the industry best practices out there for everyone, whether voluntary or not.

I don't think surveyors profit in any way by following ABYC guidelines.
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Old 12-22-2012, 09:39 AM   #127
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I think that a surveyor that cites them during the survey, but clearly informs the buyer that these standards are voluntary blah-blah-blah and you don't have to follow them etc-etc-etc THAT would be the way I would like to see it approached.
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Old 12-22-2012, 10:03 AM   #128
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Here is a question that seems the essence of ABYC stuff that gets bandied about on this and other boating Forums:

"Should one take the advice of a well regarded surveyor, who you have paid good money to prepare a document for your bank and insurer OR, take the advice of a stranger (likely uninformed and not licensed), on the internet?"
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Old 12-22-2012, 10:16 AM   #129
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I think that a surveyor that cites them during the survey, but clearly informs the buyer that these standards are voluntary blah-blah-blah and you don't have to follow them etc-etc-etc THAT would be the way I would like to see it approached.
Better I think would be that he explains WHY they are recommended, and reenforces that they are voluntary. All of their recommendations are good ideas, but not the ONLY ideas.

He could also then explain where the USCG has (and has not) aligned to those same recommendations.

Very few of them are bad idea.
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Old 12-22-2012, 10:16 AM   #130
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The nice thing about surveyors using ABYC recommendations is they are getting the industry best practices out there for everyone, whether voluntary or not.

I don't think surveyors profit in any way by following ABYC guidelines.

We've been through this previously, but the issue is one of driving up costs for the boat owner via implied "requirements". And by the way, I've had two instances where surveyors identified items as ABYC "non-compliant" and then gave me the names of individuals who could do the modification work for me...his buddies. The scam warning lights start flashing in my head and they're asked to leave. There are posters on this forum who continue to infer that ABYC criteria are somehow mandatory.
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Old 12-22-2012, 10:25 AM   #131
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And by the way, I've had two instances where surveyors identified items as ABYC "non-compliant" and then gave me the names of individuals who could do the modification work for me...his buddies.
My experiences differed from yours, and many of the recommendations in my latest survey were corrected (by myself) to take those recommendations on board, and many remain as they were.

If they are safety related and could affect your insurance rates, liability... I would pay attention and correct them. No one says you have to use someone's "buddy".
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Old 12-22-2012, 10:50 AM   #132
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My insurance co takes blindly whatever recommendation the surveyor cites. I finally had to tell the last guy not to say the boat would look nicer if it was painted blue because my insurance co would require it be painted blue for safety and to continue my insurance.
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Old 12-22-2012, 10:52 AM   #133
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"Should one take the advice of a well regarded surveyor, who you have paid good money to prepare a document for your bank and insurer OR, take the advice of a stranger (likely uninformed and not licensed), on the internet?"
There are no requirements for a toy boat "surveyor" to hold any professional license whatsoever.

A surveyor is no more likely to have any more practical skills or real-life marine industry experience than anyone else posting on the Internet.
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Old 12-22-2012, 11:12 AM   #134
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My experiences differed from yours, and many of the recommendations in my latest survey were corrected (by myself) to take those recommendations on board, and many remain as they were.

If they are safety related and could affect your insurance rates, liability... I would pay attention and correct them. No one says you have to use someone's "buddy".
You make my point...and also miss my point. Just because a surveyor points to ABYC to label something safety related or "unsafe" doesn't make it so. It's simply different than the latest ABYC guidelines for new boat construction. The problem is that it costs me either time or money when they characterize something in a survey as an ABYC "safety" concern. If you look to the aviation world, fifty year old airplanes are held to the FAA engineering standards in place at the time of original certification (along with airworthiness directives)...not those in the current regulations, which have been updated many times over the years. The ongoing surveyor initiated "safety" creep for old boats should alarm owners.

Obviously I don't have to use someone's buddy...and I won't. But I have to take the time and effort to filter out the surveyors who are bums. Why isn't SAMS/NAMS performing that function? Because they're little more than lobby groups for their members with insurance companies. This is not to say there aren't good surveyors out there. But it's certainly buyer beware. The whole process is flawed.
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Old 12-22-2012, 11:29 AM   #135
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RickB said:

"A surveyor is no more likely to have any more practical skills or real-life marine industry experience than anyone else posting on the Internet"


Correct, if one does not do some research before approaching the surveyor street. Locating a good surveyor is akin to hiring someone in industry for an important technical position which then requires the hirer to know how to look for and assess the hiree.

If not required to use a surveyor to satisfy insurance or banking needs when conducting boat inspections, I prefer to use a good boat yard whose work I am familiar with - preferably one with specific skill sets and who has done lots of new build commissioning work on like vessels. I've heard there are a few in Florida ----------.
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Old 12-22-2012, 11:31 AM   #136
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You make my point...and also miss my point. Just because a surveyor points to ABYC to label something safety related or "unsafe" doesn't make it so.
I get your point just fine. I just disagree with it.

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If you look to the aviation world, fifty year old airplanes are held to the FAA engineering standards in place at the time of original certification (along with airworthiness directives)...not those in the current regulations, which have been updated many times over the years.
Airplanes built 50 years ago, may well be grandfathered, but those are reasons of economy, not safety. They ARE NOT safer than currently built aircraft, and neither are our older boats.

All of my surveys have pointed to recommended safety improvements, and some were indeed unsafe and needed to be rectified.

GFCI is an example. It did not exist when my boat was built, but I insist on it for safety reasons. I believe a boat without it IS unsafe. Wiring color codes are another. My boat has wiring colors that could be safer, but it would not be economical to replace them. I do step up whenever I rewire anything and meet all ABYC requirements and recommendations. But, safe is an adjective and therefore very subjective. I am not concerned about someone having a more conservative safety approach than me at all.

"Safety Creep" is not a huge concern.
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Old 12-22-2012, 11:40 AM   #137
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I rewire anything and meet all ABYC requirements ....
There you go again. There are no "requirements" for an owner to comply with any of the ABYC recommendations for recreational boats.

Stop trying to make people think ABYC is a regulatory body and that little plastic hammer wielding surveyors are some kind of safety officer.
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Old 12-22-2012, 01:19 PM   #138
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Airplanes built 50 years ago, may well be grandfathered, but those are reasons of economy, not safety. They ARE NOT safer than currently built aircraft, and neither are our older boats.
I didn't say they are more safe. They are officially SAFE per the law if properly maintained. Old airplanes are not "grandfathered", they are in compliance with the letter of the regulations (law). The philosophy behind the law has worked for many decades and been proven to provide a satisfactory level of safety. Obviously there is an element of cost behind any safety philosophy....which is precisely the point I'm making. In the unusual instance where a regulation is applied retroactively, there will always be a well documented safety issue that supports the change...and the change will always be vetted through a formal cost-benefits analysis in an officially sanctioned public process. In the recreational boating community these self appointed safety "experts" are willy nilly dictating their personal safety requirements and are indeed costing unsuspecting owners. The longer it persists, the more commonplace it will become. It's time to put a stop to it.

By the way, if a surveyor found a rusty clamp or frayed wire on my boat I'd fix/replace it every time. No problem with them telling me about the latest ABYC criteria...just don't put any of it in a survey report.
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Old 12-22-2012, 02:07 PM   #139
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GFCI is an example. It did not exist when my boat was built, but I insist on it for safety reasons. I believe a boat without it IS unsafe. Wiring color codes are another. My boat has wiring colors that could be safer, but it would not be economical to replace them. I do step up whenever I rewire anything and meet all ABYC requirements and recommendations. But, safe is an adjective and therefore very subjective. I am not concerned about someone having a more conservative safety approach than me at all.

"Safety Creep" is not a huge concern.
So I'll play Devil's Advocate here.


You have your GB Europa for sale. And the prospective buyer gets me to survey his new purchase. I come aboard and see that in some places you are compliant with the ABYC's "new rules". But in most of the other wiring being as you have had nothing to repair it is not up to the ABYC so called "requirements". So being the diligent surveyor that I am I write up the survey as the boat needs a complete rewire by the new color codes so every thing matches. Something like $40k in scope.

Should I venture a guess as to how you might react to such a survey? I'm only putting what you are suggesting into full force. This is what is in fact happening with some folks. Just that the cost isn't $40k but a bit less or blows the deal completely. "I am not concerned about someone having a more conservative safety approach than me at all." Would this get you concerned because my saftey approch is more conserative than yours? My bet is it would if it happend to you in real life.

Could be wrong.
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Old 12-22-2012, 02:38 PM   #140
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When we bought our boat almost five years ago there were two tanks under the cowling on the bridge. The surveyor said they had to be moved. We bought a nice teak cooler that was intended for poolside use, put it at the back corner of the bridge deck and put a horizontal tank in. The cooler has a rubber seal, does not require tools to open and vents out of the brass spigot into to open air and not above an opening window. The pictures gives you the idea but it was taken to show the freshly sanded deck.
Hi Steve,

That looks like a neat solution, and a really nice job on the teak deck.

Cheers
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