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Old 11-21-2012, 10:44 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by RickB View Post
And with the same due respect, the "argument" is in reference to a thread participant stating that she was told that her openly mounted bottles were not allowed. This statement by a "surveyor" may or may not be correct in her case.

The point being, "surveyors" are frequently wrong, and she should learn which standards apply in what conditions before spending money to comply with what may be nothing more than ill-informed opinion.

Correct information regarding the applicable standard was provided but instantly and rudely refuted by one who claimed to have special knowledge that, as is all too common in the world of small boat surveyors, incorrect. That type of misinformation is costly to the readers of this site.

Between surveyors and insurance salesmen, the boat owner is regularly subject to needless expense caused by lack of knowledge and misinformation posted on sites such as this.


Personally, I think that if one person is saved a few hundred or a few thousand dollars by being provided correct information then it makes this site much more relevant and valuable. I share your opinion of those who post misinformation and attempt to back it up with "certifications" or other claims of insider knowledge that are easily proven wrong. They are the ones you should be concerned about.
As a professional in the industry (insurance side), I find that too often confusion reigns supreme when:

1) mis-information and dis-information is promulgated by well meaning by folks trying to apply subjective experiences to an objective conversation.

2) the conversation turns into a battle of egos, and the participants are more interested in being right and having the last word than the sharing of information.

I believe the discussions (like the one about the locker requirement ) are valuable for the forum membership UNTIL the egos start flying about.

<SNIP>
MOD NOTE: Reply re-located from previous thread
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Old 11-21-2012, 10:55 AM   #22
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Old 11-21-2012, 12:20 PM   #23
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I must apologize for starting this dispute. Really I didn't remember WHAT the issue was with the propane bottle and my mind made the leap to the locker. Looking at the survey now, that is not what he said at all. Under saftey requirements in the survey he said "this vessel has a LPG cylinder for use with the barbecue. Properly secure the tank and install a solenoid valve to permit the fuel to be shut off without approaching the tank or barbecue, or replace the large tank with small replaceable cylinders." We chose the later approach.
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Old 11-21-2012, 12:31 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Pau Hana View Post
As a professional in the industry (insurance side), I find that too often confusion reigns supreme when:

1) mis-information and dis-information is promulgated by well meaning by folks trying to apply subjective experiences to an objective conversation.

2) the conversation turns into a battle of egos, and the participants are more interested in being right and having the last word than the sharing of information.

I believe the discussions (like the one about the locker requirement ) are valuable for the forum membership UNTIL the egos start flying about.

<SNIP>
MOD NOTE: Reply re-located from previous thread
You are correct, I did take offense from statements by the poster who stated lockers were not required and I reacted inappropriately. My goal was to clarify the standards and I let my temper get in the way.
Let me try one more time to make clear the standard.

As per ABYC ... Yes you can put a tank under the flying bridge coaming or as long as there are no cable of electrical raceways leading inside the vessel and as long as there is no non-ignition protected electrical or electronic fittings in that space and as long as the propane will drain directly overboard and as long as there are no gunnels, ports, hatches, doors or vents below. The same goes for other any other location on or in the vessel.
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Old 11-21-2012, 12:45 PM   #25
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I must apologize for starting this dispute.
Please don't feel badly about this, it has raised some very important issues and illustrates a large problem with surveyor training and boater education. Thank you for bringing this to light, hopefully others will gain from your unfortunate experience with an incompetent surveyor.


Quote:
Under saftey requirements in the survey he said "this vessel has a LPG cylinder for use with the barbecue. Properly secure the tank and install a solenoid valve to permit the fuel to be shut off without approaching the tank or barbecue, or replace the large tank with small replaceable cylinders." We chose the later approach.
Again, there is no requirement or standard that calls for such an installation. If you secure the bottle, protect it from "weather" and mechanical damage, you do not need a solenoid or other form of remote shutoff. The tank valve is perfectly adequate.

There is no exception in the LPG standards for the use of "small replaceable cylinders." Your surveyor is ill-informed and was making up rules at your expense as he went along. The only requirement for an outside barbecue is that the bottle have a shutoff that can be operated without reaching over the burner(s), and "be at least 20 inches from any opening to a cabin or the hull interior and be "readily accessible."
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Old 11-21-2012, 02:16 PM   #26
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[QUOTE=boatpoker;114328]You are correct, I did take offense from statements by the poster who stated lockers were not required and I reacted inappropriately. My goal was to clarify the standards and I let my temper get in the way.
Let me try one more time to make clear the standard.

As per ABYC ... ]


As stated several times previously in this and earlier threads, ABYC is not an enforceable "standard". It is an optional industry guideline for design of new products...nothing more. Referring to ABYC as "the standard" in these forum postings...or in practice...is misleading at best. Application of ABYC to decades old boats is particularly problemmatic when "safety" upgrades are forced on boat owners via the insurance companies. I have spoken with SAMS/NAMS about this in the past, and shall do so again. As stated earlier, owners beware. Interview potential surveyors before hiring. If a surveyor speaks of non-compliance with ABYC, I send that person packing. The more of you who roll over on insurance survey recommended upgrades stemming from ABYC "standards", the more pervasive and expensive this problem will become for everyone.
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Old 11-21-2012, 03:08 PM   #27
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Greetings,
Thank you Mr. skidgear for that comment. I have mentioned the subject of ABYC "standards" on several threads and the response has generally been that the insurance industry requires compliance based on a "surveyors" recommendations. I fully understand companies not wanting to underwrite a bad risk but to be held ransom by an "accredited surveyor" who's own knowledge and interpretation of the "standards" could be less than ideal, just rubs me the wrong way.
I have been quite fortunate in getting what I consider "good" surveys but I know of a few people who did not fare as well. I'm sure everyone has at least one story
I had to bite my tongue several time during my recent insurance survey and I addressed several items that were found to be in "violation" (my word, NOT the surveyors).
I put a propane stove, associated plumbing and tanks on board last year and when the fellow examined the installation he said it was fine. Now on reading the regulations, it seems I'm NOT in compliance. The locker is not gasketed and it drains onto the side deck (inboard, as Mr. boatpoker describes). Is it unsafe? Not to my mind.
Just re-read my survey. Propane system/installation was not even mentioned and for that matter, after reading, I'm not even sure of this is a survey of my boat! The main point is my insurance was renewed and I think I'm fine for another 10 years (was told survey interval is no longer 5 years).
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Old 11-21-2012, 05:29 PM   #28
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It's actually all rather irrlevant since the ABYC standards are ABYC standards, not anybody's law. According to the ABYC, just about every Grand Banks boat on the planet is not compliant because the propane "locker" on the flying bridge is simply the space under one of the flying bridge seats that has a vent to the outside of the boat. There is no "gasketed lid" or anything else. The boats were built this way and I have never heard of a surveyor writing one up for this. It has never even come up in all the years I have been participating on the GB owners forum.

A very popular place for GB owners (and the owners of many other types of boats) to mount a BBQ and its tank is on the handrail on top of the aft cabin that surrounds the walkway to the flying bridge. The bottles are never put in lockers but are simply installed in brackets that hold the bottles securely to the rail. Any propane leaking from the bottle or the BBQ will flow down to the deck and thus overboard. And I have never seen an installation like this where there was any sort of remote solenoid shutoff valve in the line. Our BBQ is mounted on the flying bridge rail, the bottle is in a rail-mounted bracket beside it, and there is no valve in the line between the two. In all the surveys we have had since owning the boat this setup has never been questioned or even commented on.

I have never heard of a surveyor writing up an installation like this. Most of the GBs in the big charter fleet in our marina have their BBQs and bottles mounted this way. No problems there, either.

So while the internet armchair crowd can debate the meaning of the word "it" and "or," in the real world it seems that as long as common sense is used in the installation of a propane bottle, nobody really cares about the committee wording.
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Old 11-21-2012, 05:58 PM   #29
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I have been sitting back watching this unfold.

Here is what happens when a surveyor puts something in that is pure bogus. This is fact and not something that was told to me over a drink at the bar.

When I bought my 1990 Hunter 40' sailboat it was in South FL. The boat looked good so I didn't expect to have any problems with the survey. For the most part I did not, except for one particular section which is related to the topic we are on. During the late 80's and early 90's Hunter Marine had embarked on using CNG (Compressed Natural Gas) for the stove and oven. The idea is that CNG is lighter than air and will escape up and out of the boat, not settle in the bilge like Propane does. This went by way of the Dodo bird not because it wasn't a good idea but because once you leave the US most folks can't spell CNG least of all know where to get any. To be quite honest it was a bit of a pain here in the US as well but I had three tanks and they lasted about a year each so I could bring the empty back to Raleigh and get it filled at my leisure.

So the survey comes back and the surveyor writes up about twelve things. One stanchion had a weld crack, the coating was pealing off of some of the life lines, no Grd Fault plugs in the heads and galley and the biggie was there was no electric solenoid shut off system for the CNG tank. So my insurance company was happy to move forward with my assurance that it will all be repaired in the next 3 months.

The problem turns out that no such system is made for CNG. There never has been. So I called the surveyor and asked him to correct the survey and he told me that it was an ABYC code violation he wanted it fixed and that was all there was to it, he would not change his survey. He said to just get the Trident propane system and install it. So I called Trident. They informed me there was no CNG system and one had never ever been made. They did not recommend the propane system because it was not designed for CNG. They said that the way it was was perfectly fine as long as all of the hoses were not leaking nor chafed. Which they all were in good shape.

I fixed the stanchion, put in a couple of Grd fault plugs and never did any more. Luckily the insurance company never asked for proof of repairs and I sold the boat five years later with a fresh survey that never mentioned any such shut off system.

So yes their mistakes and opinions can get folks into a lot of extra expense for some whim or misinformation on their part.
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Old 11-21-2012, 05:59 PM   #30
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So while the internet armchair crowd can debate the meaning of the word "it" and "or," in the real world it seems that as long as common sense is used in the installation of a propane bottle, nobody really cares about the committee wording.
Haha! So a certified surveyor and a guy who works in the boating industry are "the internet armchair crowd." That's rich Marin!
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Old 11-21-2012, 06:32 PM   #31
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A "certified surveyor" is a person with a piece of paper that says they are a certified surveyor. I think Rick and others have pretty convincingly demonstrated that having a piece of paper is not a guarantee of anything.
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Old 11-21-2012, 06:39 PM   #32
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A "certified surveyor" is a person with a piece of paper that says they are a certified surveyor. I think Rick and others have pretty convincingly demonstrated that having a piece of paper is not a guarantee of anything.
Haha! So a person with a piece of paper that says they are a certified surveyor and Rick are "the internet armchair crowd." That's rich Marin!
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Old 11-21-2012, 07:02 PM   #33
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It's actually all rather irrlevant since the ABYC standards are ABYC standards, not anybody's law. According to the ABYC, just about every Grand Banks boat on the planet is not compliant because the propane "locker" on the flying bridge is simply the space under one of the flying bridge seats that has a vent to the outside of the boat. There is no "gasketed lid" or anything else. The boats were built this way and I have never heard of a surveyor writing one up for this. It has never even come up in all the years I have been participating on the GB owners forum.


So while the internet armchair crowd can debate the meaning of the word "it" and "or," in the real world it seems that as long as common sense is used in the installation of a propane bottle, nobody really cares about the committee wording.
Well it has come up on our boat...twice...very similar propane system design as for Grand Banks. I've also had a surveyor list exhaust overtemp sensors as a "must do" safety upgrade. Not a bad idea that I might voluntarily elect to do some day, although the boat already has overtemp and low oil pressure alarms. But not something a surveyor should be listing as an ABYC non-compliance thereby requiring that I explain the situation to insurance company.

The point is that common sense does not always prevail.
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Old 11-21-2012, 07:05 PM   #34
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Surveyors offer there opinion nothing more.

From my experience underwritters have no problem accepting mine when there is an issue between my opinion and a surveyors opinion.

You just have to back up the opinion.

Works for me !
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Old 11-21-2012, 07:22 PM   #35
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Haha! So a person with a piece of paper that says they are a certified surveyor and Rick are "the internet armchair crowd." That's rich Marin!
Rick isn't as he's an actual professional in the industry. But pretty much everyone else on this toy boat forum, including me, if they said on a sunny day the sky was blue I'd look up to check for myself.

99.9999999 percent of what is posted on forums like this is personal opinion and as such it is worth exactly what you pay for it. As I have said before, I never act on any piece of advice I see on forums like this without checking with a credible source first.

Actually, I lie. There is one piece of advice I have seen on this forum that I have actually taken and that was Keith's on using GoJo to clean fenders and groundpower cords. So far as I've been concerned, that is the single most valuable thing I've gotten from TF since it's inception. Outside of that, it's just been a social network and an entertaining diversion.
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Old 11-21-2012, 08:12 PM   #36
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You are missing my point, as usual. I'm not arguing whether or not surveyors know what they are talking about. I was attempting to make fun of Marin. Obviously it didn't work.

I apologize. Egregious out.
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Old 11-21-2012, 08:30 PM   #37
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Surveyors always feel they have to find "something". The better your boat is set up and maintained, the more they have to make up stuff. I've seen some really silly stuff on mine, like "No compass deviation card was sighted." Or a wing door that had a latch that didn't work. It was listed as a security issue, although you can board the boat on either side of it even when it's closed. If I get one like the latter, I just write to the insurance company and they have always agreed with me. Take it as a compliment if you get these silly things on your survey, but always make the insurance company happy, one way or another.
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Old 11-21-2012, 09:32 PM   #38
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Jeniffer,
Here's Willy's propane bottle on the rooftop. There is one coupling inside the boat behind the stove. It's one of those fiberglass tanks that one can see through and that feature comes in handy. It seems to last a long time. Chris can't remember if we had to fill it on our trip south (33 days) or mot. The only problem is the moisture in the cabin but is easily cleared out. Frankly I din't see any other practical and acceptable cooking stove type. Electric is totally unacceptable re the generator. Chris really likes and uses her oven too.
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Old 11-21-2012, 09:47 PM   #39
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Here is a link to the ABYC requirements:

http://www.abycinc.org/committees/A-01.pdf
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Old 11-21-2012, 10:01 PM   #40
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The Coot's propane tank is held in the phoney stack on top of the saloon roof. The "u" fittings are where stretch cords are attached to secure the tank. The "snap-down" fittings are to secure the fiberglass stack cover.

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