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Old 12-24-2012, 12:34 PM   #181
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I've never known a surveyor who claimed ABYC was mandatory and use the following statement in all my reports ....

STANDARDS USED

Canada Shipping Act (CSA2001) and all regulations under the Act including “Small Vessel Regulations, "Construction Standards for Small Vessels" – TP1332E and "International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea, 1972 with CanadianModifications" are mandatory.

TP1332E is mandatory to the date of manufacture and states "existing pleasure craft shall comply with this standard insofar as it is reasonable and practicable to do so". TP1332E frequently refers to and is in the process of being harmonized with ABYC® Standards.

American Boat and Yacht Council® – ABYC® "Standards and Technical Information Reports for Small Craft" are generally voluntary and accepted throughout the marine pleasure craft industry as “the” standard. Some ABYC® standards are mandatory as required by Transport Canada “Construction Standards for Small Vessels, TP1332E “.

National Fire Protection Association - NFPA302 "Fire Protection Standard for Pleasure and Commercial Motor Craft" are generally a voluntary with some of its standards mandated by TP1332E.

US Code of Federal Regulations – For vessels to be USCG Documented or state registered, United States Code of Federal Regulations Title 33 and 46 requirements will be applied.

So no, ABYC standards are not mandatory but are routinely accepted in US and Canadian courts as "The Industry Standard". Given that the US has more lawyers than every other country in the world combined and if you keep producing lawyers at the current rate, in 20 years every person in the US will be a lawyer ..... well I thought you'd pay more attention to the "standards" .


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Old 12-24-2012, 01:14 PM   #182
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Given that the US has more lawyers than every other country in the world combined and if you keep producing lawyers at the current rate, in 20 years every person in the US will be a lawyer ..... well I thought you'd pay more attention to the "standards" .

That's a little overstated. India also has 1M lawyers. The US does lead in the number per capita though.

What country in the world has most lawyers per capita

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Old 12-24-2012, 01:23 PM   #183
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Apparently not.
My opinion of you is firming up pretty quickly. I didn't think you'd man up to calling me a 'fool' and I certainly doubt you'd pull crap that on a dock.

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ABYC does not hold regulatory authority over the recreational boating industry. That private group does not have authority to enforce compliance with its suggested means or methods. Any surveyor who claims otherwise is a fraud.
I never used the words "regulatory authority" in this discussion. They (the ABYC) state it pretty clearly in their standards. They are best practices. They are guidelines. They are voluntary recommendations. They are requirements if you wish to state you are compliant with their standards.
Most standards organizations are voluntary; IEEE, SAE, ASCE, NMEA, NMMA, ARINC, etc. but they have very clear requirements in place to determine adherence and compliance.

Call them what you will... but maybe you should just tell your surveyor to not use ANY standards in their inspections. Just make them all opinion and subjective commentary.

You must've really gotten burned on a survey to be so hostile and bitter, or is that just the way you are all the time?
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Old 12-24-2012, 01:27 PM   #184
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My opinion of you is firming up pretty quickly. I didn't think you'd man up to calling me a 'fool' and I certainly doubt you'd pull crap that on a dock.



I never used the words "regulatory authority" in this discussion. They (the ABYC) state it pretty clearly in their standards. They are best practices. They are guidelines. They are voluntary recommendations. They are requirements if you wish to state you are compliant with their standards.
Most standards organizations are voluntary; IEEE, SAE, ASCE, NMEA, NMMA, ARINC, etc. but they have very clear requirements in place to determine adherence and compliance.

Call them what you will... but maybe you should just tell your surveyor to not use ANY standards in their inspections. Just make them all opinion and subjective commentary.

You must've really gotten burned on a survey to be so hostile and bitter, or is that just the way you are all the time?
This is where it gets fun!!!

Merry Christmas to all and to all a goodnight...
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Old 12-24-2012, 01:31 PM   #185
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I've never known a surveyor who claimed ABYC was mandatory and use the following statement in all my reports ....

STANDARDS USED....blah...blah...blah...

They don't claim it's mandatory most of the time...but if they note it under safety ...but it's only "their opinion" and refer to an ABYC suggestion...you can bet your bottom dollar the insurance company will blindly follow their advice.
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