Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 04-08-2016, 07:20 AM   #21
Guru
 
City: Seaford Va on Poquoson River, VA
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Old Glory
Vessel Model: 1970 Egg Harbor 37 extended salon model
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,301
IMO, new marine diesels are too expensive.
The market is too small, they know that and marinizers mark up the prices a lot.
The people who can afford the big brand new boat, can also afford the engine on the inside. They know that and price it accordingly.
__________________
Advertisement

sdowney717 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2016, 07:55 AM   #22
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,518
"IMO, new marine diesels are too expensive."


The key here is NEW

Engines from industrial or big truck sources will usually have an extensive options for quite professional rebuilds.

Jasper might be a source , but a look at "Boats and Harbors" will find rebuilders for larger engines.

JD is a great source for their reman product , but purchase from the farm guys not the boat guys.

I prefer NEW , by purchasing an engine that is heavy duty but not currently in the white boat market big bucks can be saved.

My favorite is International DT360 or DT466 which can be has for $3,000 to $5000 with all the electric controls with under 15,000 miles , usually from wrecked skool buses.

Boating can be as expensive as you want to make it. OR NOT!
__________________

FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2016, 07:58 AM   #23
Enigma
 
RT Firefly's Avatar
 
City: Slicker?
Country: Bumpkin?
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 9,995
Greetings,
Mr. 717. I hear ya on that...sort of. If you use a gas engine as a comparison, a diesel may cost 3X-4X the price but could easily last 3X-4X as long, disregarding the peripherals. So, in essence, you're paying for this "longevity" up front.

The pros and cons of diesel VS gas have been discussed in several threads previously and depending on specific applications, both have their places.

Regarding mark ups for what appears to be a common item...I've found, anything labeled medical, scientific, organic, "green", or marine seems to command a premium price.

Anecdotal: I was involved in a project (1985 perhaps?) that was incorporating small SS clamps into the design. The only pieces readily available were hemostats used in brain surgery. Dad gummed things were simply bent pieces of SS about 3/16" long that cost $50! Go figure.
__________________
RTF
RT Firefly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2016, 09:10 AM   #24
Art
Guru
 
Art's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 7,979
Quote:
Originally Posted by FF View Post

Boating can be as expensive as you want to make it. OR NOT!
Truer words never said!
Art is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2016, 09:19 AM   #25
Guru
 
Portuguese's Avatar
 
City: Salvador - BA
Country: Brazil
Vessel Name: Rainha Jannota
Vessel Model: Curruira 46
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 662
Send a message via MSN to Portuguese
Good thinking RT

I always thought that putting brand new engines in an old used boat is as bad as putting very old rebuilt ones in a a new boat. Re-powering an old boat should be restricted to re-built engines. You guys in US have countless sources of excellent re-built units so, that is not a problem. Here is totally different.
Apart from that, please correct me if I am wrong, in Brazil, the value of your insurance does not improve because you installed new engines.

Therefore, buying brand new engines to re-power a used recreation boat is a waste of money, This is my opinion.
__________________
Now retired and cruising in calm waters
https://www.flickr.com/photos/rainha_jannota/
Portuguese is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2016, 12:36 PM   #26
Veteran Member
 
Imnvegas's Avatar
 
City: Las Vegas Nevada
Country: U.S.
Vessel Name: None Yet
Vessel Model: None Yet
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by twistedtree View Post
Agreed. For a savvy buyer, an expensive refit can be a good value. For a novice buyer, it can be a big distraction away from other problems, or make other problems more palatable since you are getting so much value in the refit work that was done..... An aggressive salesman will do everything they can to draw attention away from a boat's problems. Some buyers will be tricked, and others will not.

That is my fear...When I am ready in a couple of years, I will be that novice buyer, I am however somewhat intelligent (unless you talk to my ex-wife). That is why I am here now so I can garner some of you guises experiences,. and won't get into too much trouble...
__________________
Growing old is mandatory
Growing up is Not
Imnvegas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2016, 07:00 AM   #27
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,518
"a diesel may cost 3X-4X the price but could easily last 3X-4X as long, disregarding the peripherals."

Very true but on rec boats I find I am yet to find a larger engine that was simply worn out.

KILLED ! Not stored properly, water backup in the exhaust , dozens of reasons for DEATH , but not wear.

A gas engine in a displacement boat will frequently go 4000 hours with all the low maint costs gas provides.

Paying 3x to 4x to perhaps get 10,000 hours is expensive insurance , esp at 200 hours of use a year.
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2016, 07:09 AM   #28
Guru
 
Pgitug's Avatar
 
City: Punta Gorda, fl
Country: Usa
Vessel Name: Escapade
Vessel Model: Nordic Tug 37 2002
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 986
Quote:
Originally Posted by FF View Post
"a diesel may cost 3X-4X the price but could easily last 3X-4X as long, disregarding the peripherals."

Very true but on rec boats I find I am yet to find a larger engine that was simply worn out.

KILLED ! Not stored properly, water backup in the exhaust , dozens of reasons for DEATH , but not wear.

A gas engine in a displacement boat will frequently go 4000 hours with all the low maint costs gas provides.

Paying 3x to 4x to perhaps get 10,000 hours is expensive insurance , esp at 200 hours of use a year.

How many people out there have anything near 4000 hours on a 20 year old gas engine? Really? Some statistics are what dreams are made of.
Pgitug is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2016, 07:17 AM   #29
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,877
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pgitug View Post
How many people out there have anything near 4000 hours on a 20 year old gas engine? Really? Some statistics are what dreams are made of.
When I left my assistance tow job in December the boat I ran easily has 4000 hrs on the 454 motor and it was installed at least 14 years ago. I haven't heard yet for sure, but it didn't sound like they replaced it this winter.

It was running perfectly and had a life of hard work compared to the average recreational vessel engine.

While most of the motors don't last as long as this one, others do, but most die exactly the deaths that FF described...not from wearing out.


It was so contrary to popular belief that I started to consider gas as a replacement for my trawler when the time comes.
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2016, 07:21 AM   #30
Enigma
 
RT Firefly's Avatar
 
City: Slicker?
Country: Bumpkin?
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 9,995
Greetings,
Mr. FF. Agreed. You've mentioned the 200hr/year figure several times in the past and your comments regarding "advantages" of gas over diesel for the "average" boater are well founded.

We've all seen the "What's the best boat for the loop" threads and possibly an adjunct to my initial query as to "How much is too much" perhaps one could add "How much boat is too much?"

I recall one recent poster who owned a gas boat asking where fuel stops were because he/she realized they had limited range with their gas boat. I got the impression they were willing to do the loop with gas and were happy with the boat they already had. Good plan IMO. Save the extra money they would spend on a diesel vessel for their one time long trip.
__________________
RTF
RT Firefly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2016, 09:28 AM   #31
Art
Guru
 
Art's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 7,979
Quote:
Originally Posted by FF View Post
"a diesel may cost 3X-4X the price but could easily last 3X-4X as long, disregarding the peripherals."

Very true but on rec boats I find I am yet to find a larger engine that was simply worn out.

KILLED ! Not stored properly, water backup in the exhaust , dozens of reasons for DEATH , but not wear.

A gas engine in a displacement boat will frequently go 4000 hours with all the low maint costs gas provides.

Paying 3x to 4x to perhaps get 10,000 hours is expensive insurance , esp at 200 hours of use a year.
Well put... and, so very true!

General myths (as well as wishes and hopes) in boating too often pervade power train accoutrements.

There are many reasons to justify using/having gasoline or diesel engines. As is often stated: "Boats are a big package of compromises". Best to study closely before making choices.
Art is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2016, 09:29 AM   #32
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,707
Gas boats are usually much lighter and considerably dependant on their lightness. That limits how much fuel they carry and thus their range ... more so than fuel burn. My 30' trawler has 100 gal of fuel. Very few gas 30' boats carry 100 gal of fuel.

By the way my 87 Nissan has 285 thousand miles on it and that is 5 or 6,000 hours running time.
__________________
Eric

North Western Washington State USA
Nomad Willy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2016, 09:44 AM   #33
Guru
 
City: Seaford Va on Poquoson River, VA
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Old Glory
Vessel Model: 1970 Egg Harbor 37 extended salon model
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,301
Speaking from experience of rusting engines, well cylinders rust when engines sit. Water in the air condenses on metal. Boat engines may sit for months and over time rust then the rust gets scraped off when started , then they sit and rust again, over and over this happens. No matter what position engine stops at, some valves are open to the air.
Rust wears down the parts as they move. Most worn engines will run anyway.

I have been painting the inside surfaces of stamped metal parts for years to keep them from rusting. Valve covers are especially bad. They were on mine. Just primer paint from Walmart works fine. I have yet to see engine oil dissolve the paint. On top of primer, I have also spray painted gloss paint and that is also been fine. Parts taken out years later look like the day I painted them.
sdowney717 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2016, 11:14 AM   #34
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,518
"I recall one recent poster who owned a gas boat asking where fuel stops were because he/she realized they had limited range with their gas boat."

A gas powered boat is efficient at low RPM and lots of the loop is speed restricted to 10 Klicks,5 or 6 NM/h

AT plaining open water speeds yes a gasser sucks as much as a plaining diesel boat.

1NMPG is common for both , depending on cruse speed.

At just above idle the gas engine is very fuel friendly and does not suffer from the big diesel woyry of slobbering due to underloading.

"Speaking from experience of rusting engines, well cylinders rust when engines sit."

The usual is to spray with fogging fluid (NAPA) and cap intake and especially exhaust.

Draining a lift muffler is also good practice.
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2016, 11:19 AM   #35
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,877
Many gas boats under 30 feet carry 100 gallons of fuel..The assistance Boat I drove had 100 and it was a gas inboard....


This 25 Sea Hunt carries 148..


Gamefish 25


This 27 Boston Whaler carries 152...


Boston Whaler | 270 Dauntless Boats | Center Console Fishing Boat | New Boats


This 24 Rosenborough carries 120 gallons...


2016 Rosborough RF-246 - SALE PENDING - Rosborough Boats In Stock


This Parker 25 carries 179 gallons...


http://parkerboats.net/blog/2520-xld-sport-cabin-new/


This 26 foot C-Dory carries a 100 gallons....


http://www.c-dory.com/boats/venture/cruiser-26/26'%20Venture.pdf




All different kinds of boats...all at 100 or more gallons....
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2016, 11:46 AM   #36
Art
Guru
 
Art's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 7,979
Ya could call our comfortable, self contained, fun to play with 34 tri cabin Tolly a BIG Pocket Cruiser.

It holds 200 gal fuel... gasoline in our case. At under 6 knots (5 to 5.5 knots), using one engine, she approaches nearly 3 nmpg = 495 mile range when figured at 2.75 nmpg with 10% fuel safety factor. With both screws running and going just under 7 knots (7.58 knots is claced hull speed) she gets 2 nmpg = 360 mile range (10% fuel safety remaining). On full plane at 16 to 17 knots she gets 1 nmpg = 180 mile range (with 10% safety fuel)

If I wanted to increase range I could use fuel bladders... Don't plan to ever do that with gasoline as fuel. - no no no! If I wanted to increase range by 1/3 additional there are locations where another 100 gallons total tankage could be installed; i.e., two 50's. But... the ranges stated above are so far plenty for what we use our Tolly.

Family health items and near demolition of our house by 200 yr old, 80 ton white oak tree falling 50% of its weight into our house (7/26/2015) has drastically slowed our boat use for couple years. Not sure when we will get fully back on track for boat play due to health reasons of two in our family... we shall see. House 75% back to complete!

Happy Boat-Mileage daze! - Art
Art is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2016, 12:32 PM   #37
Guru
 
City: Seaford Va on Poquoson River, VA
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Old Glory
Vessel Model: 1970 Egg Harbor 37 extended salon model
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art View Post
Ya could call our comfortable, self contained, fun to play with 34 tri cabin Tolly a BIG Pocket Cruiser.

It holds 200 gal fuel... gasoline in our case. At under 6 knots (5 to 5.5 knots), using one engine, she approaches nearly 3 nmpg = 495 mile range when figured at 2.75 nmpg with 10% fuel safety factor. With both screws running and going just under 7 knots (7.58 knots is claced hull speed) she gets 2 nmpg = 360 mile range (10% fuel safety remaining). On full plane at 16 to 17 knots she gets 1 nmpg = 180 mile range (with 10% safety fuel)

If I wanted to increase range I could use fuel bladders... Don't plan to ever do that with gasoline as fuel. - no no no! If I wanted to increase range by 1/3 additional there are locations where another 100 gallons total tankage could be installed; i.e., two 50's. But... the ranges stated above are so far plenty for what we use our Tolly.

Family health items and near demolition of our house by 200 yr old, 80 ton white oak tree falling 50% of its weight into our house (7/26/2015) has drastically slowed our boat use for couple years. Not sure when we will get fully back on track for boat play due to health reasons of two in our family... we shall see. House 75% back to complete!

Happy Boat-Mileage daze! - Art
I also have a gasser. In my case I have two 145 gallon long saddle style Monel tanks made by SeaFare in 1970. They look sort of green metal and seem to be ok.
My engines are 392 IH Palmer marinized. I am just finishing up a starboard side rebuild.
Here is an album link starboard
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1Q...RCR0EtQ2ZmeGxR

Port from a few years ago
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1Q...V3a2J2bWk3cGRR

I am lucky to get 2 nmpg, maybe run just one would do better? Pushing 37 feet of boat.
sdowney717 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2016, 12:58 PM   #38
Art
Guru
 
Art's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 7,979
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdowney717 View Post
I also have a gasser. In my case I have two 145 gallon long saddle style Monel tanks made by SeaFare in 1970. They look sort of green metal and seem to be ok.
My engines are 392 IH Palmer marinized. I am just finishing up a starboard side rebuild.
Here is an album link starboard
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1Q...RCR0EtQ2ZmeGxR

Port from a few years ago
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1Q...V3a2J2bWk3cGRR

I am lucky to get 2 nmpg, maybe run just one would do better? Pushing 37 feet of boat.
Yo sd -

Cool photo track on Palmer rebuilds. Have you photos of boat?

If you run on one engine at well below hull speed you should get near 3 nmpg. Be careful trany can take free wheeling - some can't. In that case... off-engine's shaft needs to be locked for no rotation. Bork Warner Velvet Drive trany can free wheel... at least our 1977's can. Check with trany manufacturer before you let it free wheel.
Art is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2016, 01:33 PM   #39
Senior Member
 
jjorgenson3's Avatar
 
City: New Rochelle, NY
Country: US
Vessel Name: Jerry Land
Vessel Model: Grand Banks/Alaskan
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 132
Reading everyone's thought's in writing certainly brings fourth all the thoughts when we jump into our dreams. My boat was owned for over 37 years by a true gentleman that maintained her for a person just like me. I will do the same for the next person of this magnificent vessel. Fair winds to all in the dreams and realities.
jjorgenson3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2016, 01:48 PM   #40
Guru
 
Rustybarge's Avatar
 
City: I need a bigger boat!
Country: Ireland
Vessel Model: Cheetah 25' Powercat.
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 925
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art View Post
Yo sd -

Cool photo track on Palmer rebuilds. Have you photos of boat?

If you run on one engine at well below hull speed you should get near 3 nmpg. Be careful trany can take free wheeling - some can't. In that case... off-engine's shaft needs to be locked for no rotation. Bork Warner Velvet Drive trany can free wheel... at least our 1977's can. Check with trany manufacturer before you let it free wheel.
Interesting graph ...actual accurate data taken on a real boat with lab equipment.

__________________

__________________
Peter.
Rustybarge is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:00 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012