Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 06-04-2014, 09:13 PM   #1
Senior Member
 
City: Jacksonville Fla
Country: USA
Vessel Name: The Office
Vessel Model: Marine Trader
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 157
Had a problem and now more problems to work out

Hi All, Please take a look and advise me as this has not happened to me before. I was rescued by the CG from a hurricane in a sailboat 20 years ago and that was nothing compared to this.

We were cruising at 1500 rpms and no worries when suddenly the tachs went crazy on our twin Volvo powered 40 ft marine trader. I knew something had to be wrong with both alternators. I went and pulled a floor plate and water is going everywhere. Called CG and reported position then went below and found a sea water pump hose had come off a fitting when the stainless steel hose clamp rusted out at the screw. Quickly closed the sea cock and the water flow stopped. Before long 15 or so boats were at our position, Coast Guard (great people, My favorites!) sheriffs, police, water police, and 10 or so towing and independent rescue people. All the towing people giving bad advisement and saying their competitors will rip me off. Pumps were offered @ $3-400.00 to use them. Being a member of one of the services I was surprised when a competitor offered a pump for free. 10 mins of pumping and I was dry. No leaks or incoming water ( I tipped him well). A CG inspection and sheriff's inspection revealed no problems with safety or the vessel. They checked for illegals, drugs, papers etc and safety. A CG Chief pulled me aside and said "Don't let any of these guys tow your boat , They are crooks!"
My wife and motored on another 55 miles with me checking the bilge every hour and stopped in a marina.
They sea water had killed my AC pump so I checked it and pronounced it dead at 9:30 Pm During that time I checked and my bilge pump, alarm for High water all worked. During the accident the bilge pump had jammed on a piece of flotsam in the bilge. The water had sprayed on the engine drive belts and went everywhere but did not rise very far. Engine started and ran fine. The alarm could not be heard up on fly bridge. (I will place an alarm up there next along with a new bilge pump) So at 9:30 last night we were safe and secure. We had washed everything down with fresh water and pumped it out with the bilge pump. At 9 am I prepared to replace the AC pump with a spare I carried because the pump in use was 28 years old. When I raised the floor plate my heart fell as I looked at over 2 ft of water in the bilge, another 3 inches and the air cleaners would have taken on water. I felt and closed All sea cocks. I called the company I am a member of and they came right out with pumps and all. After pumping the bilge dry they looked for the source. Diving on the boat, checking all the sea cocks, damage and hoses. They spent 4 hours on this and no leak found???? They towed me to a marina where they service Volvos. The service was recommended by my friend and surveyor I rely on. Sadly he can't help as he is busy and too far away. They found one engine full of sea water in the oil pan only. the gen set was covered half way up, all the pumps in engine room refuse to operate. We opened all the sea cocks and watched. No leaks. The exhaust hoses are new and no leaks. All sea water hoses with the exception of the wash down pump hose that came off are double clamped and replaced in the past 2 years. Yes I am very upset with the company that sells me stainless hose clamps that rust out at the screw. The shafts are goretex packing last month and no drips.
We have insurance. I will not name the company. Here are the questions I have: What will the insurance company do, If the source of the leak is my fault and how will that play out? What can I expect from the insurance company? What can I expect from a local surveyor hired by the IC? What should I be doing during this process?
What are my rights? What is worst case scenario? Any one else been thru this?

We did not hit anything as best we can tell.
The sea cock to the sea water pump can be open and no water comes out hose unless pump is on. I closed it during the first incident and shut the breaker off. The front sump and aft sump are normal and show no excess water. The divers and response team checked all thru-hulls. They impressed me how hard they worked and were as mystified as I am about the leak.

Please don't post any questions about who is involved. Until this is settled I will not name names. Negative commentators can go to Face Book and have fun being negative. We are at a life changing time here and I am asking for help. It is like being grounded, If you have not ever been aground you ain't boated much.
Thank you,
S
__________________
Advertisement

Autoteacher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2014, 09:24 PM   #2
Enigma
 
RT Firefly's Avatar
 
City: Slicker?
Country: Bumpkin?
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 9,994
Greetings,
Mr. AT. I send my best wishes to you in hopes of a satisfactory conclusion.
__________________

__________________
RTF
RT Firefly is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2014, 09:39 PM   #3
Guru
 
fryedaze's Avatar
 
City: Solomons Island Md
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Fryedaze
Vessel Model: MC 42 (Overseas Ltd) Monk 42
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,052
S, thanks for the post on your experience. I cant help because I dont know Jack Sh!@% about the questions you asked. I looke forward to learning from your experience. I hope it all turns in your favor.
__________________
Dave Frye
Fryedaze, MC 42 (Monk 42') 1989 Overseas Co
http://mvfryedaze.blogspot.com/
fryedaze is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2014, 09:43 PM   #4
Guru
 
Ski in NC's Avatar
 
City: Wilmington, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Louisa
Vessel Model: Custom Built 38
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 3,879
The engines and gears can be recovered on site, in the boat. Water needs to be drained from oil sumps, cylinders cleared of any water, engines started and oil changed a couple times until it is clear of water. You may need to pull starters and have them cleaned out in order to run engines. These steps need to happen in the next couple days to avoid engine damage.

Drain any water from bottom of gear sumps.

The genset stator and rotor need to be pulled, rinsed and baked. Engne needs to be treated as main engines, but it may be easier to pull whole genset so the electrical end work can be done. Gen starter needs to be cleaned as main starters, if it went under.

Batteries that went under are done.

Contact your insurance co and describe the event. Even if some part of the loss can be attributed to your actions, that should not affect them covering the claim. Much like if you take a curve too fast in the car, insurance covers. (but no insurance expert here, so take it for what it is worth) From what you typed, it sounds you handled things reasonably well.

I think it is in your best interests to take the lead in getting the engines and gen preserved, and discuss that with the ins co. It is in their interest too.

If engines and gen are unsunk properly, there can be few long term effects.

I have no idea the source of the second water ingress. That's going to take some crawling around and some analysis. Gut feel is second event had something to do with the first.

Good luck. All this stuff can be repaired.
Ski in NC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2014, 10:20 PM   #5
Guru
 
Forkliftt's Avatar
 
City: Biloxi Mississippi
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Patricia Louise II
Vessel Model: 1983 42' Present Sundeck
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,433
Wow, good luck AT as you work through this. Opening a hatch and seeing that much water can be terrorizing I'm sure. From your bio it looks like you are probably well aware of most of the quickly needed tasks- and will get that handled soon. This could have been much worse. I'm glad you guys are ok.


1983 Present 42 Sundeck
Lehman 135 Twins
__________________
Steve Point Cadet/ Biloxi, Mississippi USA
*Present 42 twin 135 Lehmans
Forkliftt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2014, 10:32 PM   #6
Guru
 
City: Hotel, CA
Country: Fried
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 8,328
Scary stuff. Ski gave you great advice, only thing I will add is get your hands on another pump or two and stick in that engine room now and route the hoses any way you can. Since you're at the dock I'd go for a float activated 110 Volt pump that should be available at a hardware store or Home Depot.

Well handled and good luck going foreword.
__________________
Craig

It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled - Mark Twain
CPseudonym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2014, 11:00 PM   #7
Guru
 
AusCan's Avatar
 
City: Adelaide
Country: Australia
Vessel Name: Kokanee
Vessel Model: Cuddles 30 Pilot House Motor Sailer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,091
AT - Yes, sorry about you misfortune, but could have been much worse without the quick actions you took.

I don't know the set up with a MT but I'm thinking it could be seawater possibly siphoning into the bilge. Are all your water-out seacocks (bilge pumps, exhaust etc) above water?
If any are below the waterline, and relying on a siphon breaker this may be your problem.
AusCan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2014, 11:57 PM   #8
Guru
 
Daddyo's Avatar


 
City: Cruising East Coast US
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Grace
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,441

Wow, that is a very bad day indeed! I wish you a speedy positive resolution.

The answer to your questions totally depends on your policy and the company your dealing with. Some companies exclude all damages due to equipment failure ie. they say it's your fault for not maintaining a shipshape vessel. Other companies (the good guys) exclude coverage for the offending failed item but do cover the collateral damage ie. they will pay for the boat but not the failed bilge pump. Read your policy very carefully and chances are you will find your answers there (the courts will).
__________________
Mark Bowerman
Brokerage owner and cruiser
Esse Quam Videri
http://graceyachting.com/
Daddyo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2014, 12:05 AM   #9
Guru
 
Ski in NC's Avatar
 
City: Wilmington, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Louisa
Vessel Model: Custom Built 38
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 3,879
Second that about bilge pump discharges being near the water line. I pulled a transmission out of a boat (big heavy gearbox) and afterward vessel took a list. I walked back to the boat to clean up and lock up and noticed water moving in the bilge. Bilge pump discharges were right at the water line and with the list, they were siphoning backward. Pumps had been re-plumbed sometime previously, and there was no siphon break provision.
Ski in NC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2014, 07:02 AM   #10
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,853
Here are the questions asked...
1. What will the insurance company do, If the source of the leak is my fault and how will that play out? really depends on your policy...if some reason something is specifically excluded...then no pay or if you failed to do a basic requirement by them or a "common man"seamanship failure...pretty good chance they will pay. Of course less deductibles and as Daddyo said...maybe not for "failed equipment".
2. What can I expect from the insurance company? After your call, depending on the company either quick response and a call from an adjuster or slow response and you will be bugging them. If an adjuster calls just follow the instructions given.

3. What can I expect from a local surveyor hired by the IC? If he is an adjuster or surveyor used to do the adjusting (investigate the claim)...not much...maybe ask a few questions, ask permission to do something if it mean disturbing things in your boat, request you ask the marina for assistance looking for something.

4. What should I be doing during this process? Ensuring minimum damage from salt water immersion...pretty much what Ski posted earlier...if an adjuster is already assigned, you can call them and state your intentions to proceed with damage prevention (so it won't possibly sidetrack any investigation).

5. What are my rights? Whatever your policy says...ultimately you are in charge (ie - no claim no insurance co. involvement). Once you make a claim...they have rights back at you to determine what in your policy may or may not be covered. That's not to be scary..sounds like siphoning as no clear cut "breach entry" so unless that had been addressed in a prior survey it sound like a pretty simple insurance claim and payment. You never seem to be made whole...the best you can do is fight to get close...and if you do and your company is great...you will come out feeling pretty good. But that's all dependent on how much damage and if you get nickel and dimed in the repairs and how good your mechs/techs are.

6.What is worst case scenario? see above

7. Any one else been thru this? Not me personally but I deal with dozens of salvages each year and know the victims and appraiser pretty well. Most get their insurance checks if deserved and mainly because the adjuster I work with is a good guy. Some sinkings are quite the mystery and take the adjuster a few days and testing...but he figures it out and the checks are cut. Many times the insurance co will just call us for an evaluation. My boss usually answers as it gets dicey for us if the boat owner is a customer and he hired us to do the salvage as it becomes conflict of interest at that point. If the insurance co hires us...several times my opinions/observations were used to answer the insurance co's/appraiser's questions.

a side note .....it doesn't matter who your assistance tower is...once you start sinking...you aren't covered by your assistance towing policy. A "free" pump may have been just to get a foot in the door..or maybe thee guy was feeling generous. Either way...that's the business...when you burn or sink...that's where there is decent money in that business and why it pays to have good "hull" insurance as the costs are bigger than most want to pay out of pocket (even for a simple pump.

As far as being all crooks...maybe that gang was, but all towers aren't by a longshot...any more than all Chief Petty Officers are all lazy, slackers.
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2014, 07:18 AM   #11
Senior Member
 
City: Jacksonville Fla
Country: USA
Vessel Name: The Office
Vessel Model: Marine Trader
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 157
Hi PS, Thanks for the good advisement. Along with the others I now have a handle on this and feel a little better. BTW I did not intend to slander any towers, only to report the event and actions as they happened.

I keep the forum posted.
Thank You,
S
Autoteacher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2014, 02:32 PM   #12
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,512
One thing that can be learned from this is the value of a portable pump.

We use the Edson on a board with 2 ,,20 ft hoses.

Edson 30 GPM Portable Diaphragm Pump Kit

Hardly cheap , and hard as heck to ever find used , but great insurance , for the entire anchorage.

Only passed it to other folks 2x in decades , but once was rewarded with my weight in BEER!

Best idea , keep it in a deck locker , not in the depths of the bilge!
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2014, 05:55 PM   #13
Guru
 
Capt.Bill11's Avatar
 
City: Sarasota/Ft. Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 5,422
While I'm inclined to go along with the back feeding bilge pump as the cause of the second flooding as well, I do find it strange that after checking both the pump and the alarm and finding them to be working, they both failed again!?

As to problems cause by the flooding, you need to look closely at all the wiring that was under water. As some one mention, your batteries are toast but the cables going to them are now compromised as well.
Capt.Bill11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2014, 06:46 PM   #14
Senior Member
 
City: Jacksonville Fla
Country: USA
Vessel Name: The Office
Vessel Model: Marine Trader
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 157
Update on taking on water

Today we had a very efficient young man who cleaned the compromised engines and transmissions. I watched and turns out I am friends with the diesel instructor that trained him. He worked very hard and we have one engine and the gen set running. the other engine has a battery main cable that has to have a new connector. The sea cocks were open all day and no new water. As he was in the bilge all day I could not check the wiring to the bilge pump. I did check the pump and it runs. I suspect the wiring to the pump and alarm has problem. The surveyor showed up and commented on stuff that he did not like about our boat that did not relate to incident, I feel he is totally in the pocket of the insurance company. We were involved in a accident two weeks ago while in a slip. We were off the boat and a trawler with a new owner came in a high speed and rammed his anchor into the side of our boat. Progressive insurance is working on a repair. The aft window was wiped out. I did not feel comfortable when the surveyor made comments about this old boat. We have restored it from a $30000. abandoned boat to a $85000. good condition boat.
Thank you all for your positive support!!!! You are the best!!!

More later...........
Autoteacher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2014, 07:00 AM   #15
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,512
I do find it strange that after checking both the pump and the alarm and finding them to be working, they both failed again!?

When water floods a system it might put other systems at risk from back syphoning.

A waste loop not being high enough or sticking could be an example.
__________________

FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:23 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012