Fresh water flush - separate tank

[psneeld]

No thread drift yet...we aren't talking airplanes and cars or holy cow trains like some guys want to beat to death on a boat forum.

I guess if you don't know boats...use other things for your point of reference.

 

[HeadMistress]

If it's a Raritan, you might look at their Part number2500RFK...listed in Defender catalogue as Fresh Head Retrofit kit, item 503404. Suspect Jabsco has something similar. But it ain't rocket science and you can safely create your own kit from components if you wish to hook up to the fresh water supply system.

The "Fresh Head Retrofit Kit" is the "conversion" (everything south of the bowl) that I included in my first post to this thread. FRESH_HEAD Promo Sheet Neither Jabsco nor any other mfr have something similar because a) any bowl---Groco, Jabsco, W-C, Thetford or any other--that has a + mounting bolt pattern will fit it...and b) I'm fairly certain Raritan has patented it. That shouldn't stop anyone who wants to reinvent the first manual toilet designed to use pressurized flush water from trying though.

 

[SCOTTEDAVIS]

The OP (Bay Pelican) has stated he wants to make a totally separate system, as well as stating his reasons...It seems to me that the system he is envisioning is in total compliance with the CG regs that Headmistress is pointing out. So, I'm curious, what is all the discussion about since it in no way answers the questions originally posted?

As I said in post # 2 the idea the OP has is valid and good IMO, as he stated it.

The other BS as to modifying a head by way of check valves and such nonsense and not worrying about it as "marine heads are the same as your house" and other OWT and forum hype and TF worrying.
Well that is just folks making noise to ...well make noise. I'm being nice here.

 

[FlyWright]

Just as a point of clarification, the vent Ready2go connected to is the vent line to the holding tank, not the FW tank, right?

Marty, your idea sounds like a sound one...even The Headmistress agrees. I'll be interested in how it turns out.

 

[FF]

3 gallons of flush water is way too small.

I would install a 20- 35Gal rubber bladder tank somewhere.

Your head has a fine supply pump and will draw from a good distance.

Fill it with a shower hose , rain water , whatever , KISS ,

 

[Conall63]

Those devices are designed to connect to existing fresh water system and have decent check valve and solenoid valve ( at least my Raritan does). If it made you feel better, install another check in line.

Unless you're super attentive to keeping you're existing fresh water tanks and transport lines sanitized, there's probably more of a risk from getting the nasties from your tanks or lines, than the risk of back feeding from the waste side of a toilet into the fresh water side of the supply.

Conall

I read the OP wrong, and though a fresh water toilet was going to be bought, not converting an existing raw water flush, so I was wrong in stating those toilets are designed for connecting to fresh water.

Conall

 

[psneeld]

People come here for ideas....calling other's ideas BS and nonsense is easy.

Pointing out exactly why they they will or won't work takes intelligence ,experience, and a little effort sometimes.

Posting links that show why an idea will work, meet standards and possibly save someone some money, time and/or energy is what I thought forums were for.

 

[Pack Mule]

I was thinking the same .I mounted a small water tank on my old sail boat that was higher than my manual brass hand pump at the galley sink and it just ran thru the hand pump .. Will the valve at the toilet pump hold back the gravity feed from the tank ? I think that it would .

 

[Shoalwaters]

Bay Pelican's separate tank plan will work, utilises rainwater, is simple and, most important, it is NOT connected to other systems.

 

[psneeld]

I was thinking the same .I mounted a small water tank on my old sail boat that was higher than my manual brass hand pump at the galley sink and it just ran thru the hand pump .. Will the valve at the toilet pump hold back the gravity feed from the tank ? I would think that it would .

I think it would, usually the lever that directs fill, pump dry is the safeguard from flooding from seawater.

A separate gravity tank could even be kept filled from the pressure fresh water using a standard household toilet valve so it would have the air gap Ulysses discussed.

 

[Bay Pelican]

Will the valve at the toilet pump hold back the gravity feed from the tank ? I think that it would .

For anyone else interested in trying this, Bay Pelican's toilet is mounted so that the rim of the toilet is 2" above the water line so that if the sea water valve fails the toilet only fills to within an inch or two of the top of the rim. Keeping this in mind the plan is to mount the water tank so that it is for the most part below the rim of the toilet but above the toilet inlet for its pump.

And yes like everything else on Bay Pelican over 16 years the inlet valve has failed and needed serving/replacing.

 

[janice142]

Aboard Seaweed the bowl was level with the waterline. That was unacceptable so after due consideration I had a locker built. The locker fits toilet paper rolls so I've got a place to stow them where needed.

And too, the head is higher so I don't worry about it flooding the boat. I don't know anyone personally who has experienced that, mind you. With the head so high a step up is a given. Of course if I was taller...

I'd considered simply putting a plastic measuring cup in the head to flush with fresh water (from the sink) when necessary. That seemed the easiest solution for using water from the tank without contamination issues.

 

[psneeld]

Aboard Seaweed the bowl was level with the waterline. That was unacceptable so after due consideration I had a locker built. The locker fits toilet paper rolls so I've got a place to stow them where needed.

And too, the head is higher so I don't worry about it flooding the boat. I don't know anyone personally who has experienced that, mind you. With the head so high a step up is a given. Of course if I was taller...

I'd considered simply putting a plastic measuring cup in the head to flush with fresh water (from the sink) when necessary. That seemed the easiest solution for using water from the tank without contamination issues.

Some Raritan Toilets or RV toilets have a hand sprayer attachment. One could be rigged next to the toilet and used to flush.

Till my electric solenoid arrived, my whole head shower wand did the trick.

 

[chester613]

On my last boat, I found an easy-peezy way. I took the drain from the head sink and plumbed it to the supply side of the head. Do your business, fill the sink with water, flush normally. If you need more water, the hand held shower is great. No back flo possible. I guess you do add any water in the sink is going into the holding tank. I guess you could add a Y valve? That's too much work to switch the valve when you brush your teeth or flush the toilet. It worked for us.

 

[FF]

"the hand held shower is great'

For many folks this solves ALL their problem.

 

[SCOTTEDAVIS]

People come here for ideas....calling other's ideas BS and nonsense is easy.

Pointing out exactly why they they will or won't work takes intelligence ,experience, and a little effort sometimes.

Posting links that show why an idea will work, meet standards and possibly save someone some money, time and/or energy is what I thought forums were for.

If you are referring to my post then say so. I called BS on a post claiming that there is no problem hooking up a std. head to a boats fresh water supply no big deal. It is a big deal and requires care and compliance while using approved connections and methods, as has been well proven (thanks Peggie).

Please show me where I called an idea BS, it was a declarative statement I tossed a flag onto.

I thought the concept of NO connection with crap and drinking water was fairly simple, excuse me for this.

I understand the workings of bacteria (I am a licensed Registered Nurse RN9292485). Ask someone that has had a UTI about the mobility of bacteria the ability of them to reproduce and the results of them being where not wanted. Do you need drawings?

I also am and have been a Licensed General Contractor (GCG-056789, really, that is my number look it up at Find Things To Do, Tourist Attractions, and Hotel Reviews) for almost 30 years, so I also know a thing or two about plumbing.

Ahhh yes, plumbing an entire industry dedicated to keeping **** out of our mouths.There are reams dedicated to this, should I post a few web sites?

Everyone on here has access to the internet and its pool of information, it's not my job to provide all the lesson plans for every incorrect statement. I just stated that it was wrong and why, simple.

The electric solenoid valve equipped head that you use hopefully also has an air gap or a double protection check-valve built in. If not then you are relying on a mechanical seal and spring as well as water pressure to prevent cross contamination. if you have a failure at any point (even a microscopic nick or wear of the valve seat) or loss of water pressure (ever turn off your water pump?) you are at risk.

Look up the difference of a double protection check-valve as opposed to a regular check valve hint: only one is legal in a potable water supply.

You seem like a smart guy, don't take any crap from your toilet.

I like to think that when I share a cocktail hour with a fellow boater I won't spent the next 48 hours sick after a dose of e-coli with my, uh mmm.... lemonade.


This post was approved by my dog, hopefully it meet with your requirements as to being informative.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Underway]

....a handy combination anti-syphon/solenoid valve. A key part of their fresh water flush heads that they sell separately. Compact and easy to wire/plumb. ($75 six years ago...). Still a lot less money than buying a new head or some of the other retrofit kits.

Jabsco 37038-1012.

Jabsco, Soleniod Valve / Siphon Breaker

 

[Marlinmike]

Surprised no one said vacu-flush system!

 

[psneeld]

I just know what several manufacture's use on boats and RVs...houses I don't know...don't care.

I am certified is many things...again..I just go with what the industry standard is...who cares what they use in spaceships or anything else

People don't get sick from the industry standard which I have provided links to....and referred to.

As usual a lot of talk but who provides links to back up their ideas?

And if I am wrong....please point it out as I'll be glad to admit it.

But don't use standards that boat manufacturers, boat head suppliers and RV type toilets don't have.

Even an "expert" I believe said a vacuum breaker and water solenoid was standard.

 

[SCOTTEDAVIS]

I just know what several manufacture's use on boats and RVs...houses I don't know...don't care.

I am certified is many things...again..I just go with what the industry standard is...who cares what they use in spaceships or anything else

People don't get sick from the industry standard which I have provided links to....and referred to.

As usual a lot of talk but who provides links to back up their ideas?

And if I am wrong....please point it out as I'll be glad to admit it.

But don't use standards that boat manufacturers, boat head suppliers and RV type toilets don't have.

Even an "expert" I believe said a vacuum breaker and water solenoid was standard.

Go back and read post #5 that is where I had a problem.

Now I ask you this, do you agree with post 5, yes or no?

Point out one place where I said that using the correct items and proper equipment was wrong.

I quoited the statement I had a problem with now go back and point where I was wrong in my disagreement with the statement I quoited.

Don't be dense, using red-herring arguments like space craft and houses adds nothing to the quality of your post.

Please show the industry standard (links... that you call seem to ask for ever few posts) that show it's OK to grab some plumbing supplies and use them to design your own fresh water supply hook ups to a standard raw water head, I'll wait.

What are the industry standards, is there a national plumbing code for boats? Nope... none, nada, only recommendations from the ABYC, no national laws, no industry standards no codes, no regulations. only recommendations. You even said the USCG really doesn't care about the plumbing inside only the discharge, do they inspect boats under construction, does anyone?

Provide links, show your work, don't need an air-gap, only need a solenoid valve, really, how did you put it?

Here let me quote you..."As usual a lot of talk but who provides links to back up their idea"

The RV expanded view has an air-gap at the bowl fill and one at the hand held wand, both absent when hooking up to a marine head pump toilet. The RV head also has a back-flow valve so both are present.

 

[Underway]

Go back and read post #5 that is where I had a problem.

Now I ask you this, do you agree with post 5, yes or no?

Point out one place where I said that using the correct items and proper equipment was wrong.

I quoited the statement I had a problem with now go back and point where I was wrong in my disagreement with the statement I quoited.

Don't be dense, using red-herring arguments like space craft and houses adds nothing to the quality of your post.

Please show the industry standard (links... that you call seem to ask for ever few posts) that show it's OK to grab some plumbing supplies and use them to design your own fresh water supply hook ups to a standard raw water head, I'll wait.

What are the industry standards, is there a national plumbing code for boats? Nope... none, nada, only recommendations from the ABYC, no national laws, no industry standards no codes, no regulations. only recommendations. You even said the USCG really doesn't care about the plumbing inside only the discharge, do they inspect boats under construction, does anyone?

Provide links, show your work, don't need an air-gap, only need a solenoid valve, really, how did you put it?

Here let me quote you..."As usual a lot of talk but who provides links to back up their idea"

Play by your own rules.

Scottie, I have to say I was mislead by your post #8 (not having read one of your earlier posts carefully). Taken by itself that post implies that raw water conversions can't be done safely, period. Not so, as you corrected me in a subsequent post, while pointing out that you've done it yourself. I think there's some confusion around that particular post. But I have to agree that there is a great deal of hyperbola and misdirection around this subject. Some of it comes from subject matter experts.

 

[wyoboater]

I still feel that the OP's idea is a sound/legal/safe one "as is"...and feel he should probably pursue that.

 

[MYTraveler]

When the boat's water pump is off, the fresh water system isn't pressurized, leaving bacteria from bowl--and from READYTOGO's holding tank vent line are free to migrate in any direction into your fresh water plumbing.

There's a much easier way that's SAFE: replace the toilet with one designed to use pressurized <emphasis added> fresh water...and there's one for just about every budget:

The Raritan Marine Elegance Marne Elegance Promo Sheet is the top-rated

Peggy, I had worried about the possibility of contamination when my boat was built (with those Raritan heads, btw), but was assured that there was no risk of bacterial or viral migration "because that water line is pressurized". It later dawned on me that, contrary to my manufactuer's recommendation, I don't keep my water pumps energized when I am off the boat for extended periods, but I was assured that the system was fool-proof, even without power.

Now I see your post, above, and (because you refer to a "pressurized" system as being a safe alternative), I am again concerned that my system is not safe if not continuously pressurized.

Am I misunderstanding your advice?
Thanks, Rick

 

[HeadMistress]

One more time: It is safe to connect any toilet to the potable water system that is designed by the mfr to use pressurized fresh water.

Therefore, if your Raritan toilets are designed to use pressurized fresh water, your system is safe whether the water pump is on and the system is pressurized or not.

Y'all need to spend a lot MORE time on the water and a LOT less at your computers!

 

[psneeld]

Raritan Elegance toilet.

Yes designed for fresh water...look at exploded view and judge yourself the differences between any head fitted with the correct parts, designed that way or not...

 

[SCOTTEDAVIS]

Scottie, I have to say I was mislead by your post #8 (not having read one of your earlier posts carefully). Taken by itself that post implies that raw water conversions can't be done safely, period. Not so, as you corrected me in a subsequent post, while pointing out that you've done it yourself. I think there's some confusion around that particular post. But I have to agree that there is a great deal of hyperbola and misdirection around this subject. Some of it comes from subject matter experts.

I understand and you are so right, when the post count gets long folks don't read the previous posts and respond to only part of the conversation with little to no context as to what was said or meant earlier.

It is challenging having a discussion in this format while trying to act like you are sitting in a room having a chat.

What is real fun is when there is several different conversations and you are trying to filter what posts belong to what conversation.

 

[SCOTTEDAVIS]

I still feel that the OP's idea is a sound/legal/safe one "as is"...and feel he should probably pursue that.

100% agree, all the way back to post #2 and still do.

 

[SCOTTEDAVIS]

Raritan Elegance toilet.

Yes designed for fresh water...look at exploded view and judge yourself the differences between any head fitted with the correct parts, designed that way or not...

Key word "designed" not cobbled together parts from the Depot or just hooking up to the raw water inlet with the fresh line as was stated in the thread.

 

[Larry M]

...Y'all need to spend a lot MORE time on the water and a LOT less at your computers!

 

[MYTraveler]

if your Raritan toilets are designed to use pressurized fresh water, your system is safe whether the water pump is on and the system is pressurized or not.

Thank you for the clarification.