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Old 08-15-2014, 11:51 AM   #21
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Unless you are a commercial vessel you are not required to have anything. So you can add or not add what ever you like to your system.
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Old 08-15-2014, 01:21 PM   #22
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If you choose to install a fire system it must be installed per the rules. You may not leave bits and pieces out and choose to do it any old way.

Yes to a manual release outside the engine room.
Yes to a status indicator at a monitored location.
Ventilation and engines must be shut down or the fire extinguishing will not work. This shut-down is to be automatic. A manual shut down would not be necessary.

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Old 08-15-2014, 01:25 PM   #23
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Oh, I am a fire protection engineer . O.B. Thomas, P.E. TEXAS 59630
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Old 08-15-2014, 01:26 PM   #24
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check to see what your insurance is looking forthen go from there...

as Capt. Bill said...not a requirement except for your insurance...a friend of mine just sold his boat to another friend. New owner's insurance mandated...old owner's did not.

I like a manual/auto set up.

Auto when off the boat...manual with just smoke/heat sensors when running it. I'm the captain...not a thermal sensor...

I decide decide when the engine goes off...not 35 cents worth of electronics.
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Old 08-15-2014, 01:39 PM   #25
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I do not have an automatic fire extinguishing system. It's not because I do not want one, I t's just because I have not added one to my boat yet. I do have engine room fire detection. I have two heat detectors that sound a very large bell. When I do get a fire extinguishing system it will be a pre engineered system like the ones sold by fireboy. You must follow manufacturers recommendations and they will tell you what must be done to comply with their UL listing. One of the things that must be done is to install their automatic engine and ventilation shutdown. Now if you want to be Captain and do it your way so be it. You may never get caught. You may never need the fire extinguisher. On the other hand I want mine to work like it should.

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Old 08-15-2014, 01:47 PM   #26
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Yep...I want it to auto shutdown because of a malfunction (no...I forgot they never happen) when I'm in a breaking inlet, picking up a MOB, navigating a narrow fairway in a marina full of mega yachts is just a bad idea.

No ...I'm not perfect but I've been on the boating end of things long enough (also aircraft safety end of things)...that I know auto shutdown of an engine without an override or manual intervention is absolutely a bad idea.

There are just some things that still need humans to decide....there's ALWAYS the possibility of a bigger picture. A fire can be manually fought in those cases or even ignored for a calculated bit.

I'd rather fight a fire after clearing a breaking inlet than roll over and say to the crew treading water..."good news...either the fire suppression worked perfectly or that big wave did the trick".....

Fortunately there are systems that allow override....

from Fireboy manual...

The Fireboy engine shutdown system provides this function by means of a pressure switch at the extinguisher (Fireboy CG, MA and GA models only), a relay-terminal box installed at the helm station, and an instrument display unit. The display unit provides
system status (charged/discharged both visual and audible) and an override to allow restarting of the engine after a discharge or to prevent engine shutdown in a crowded water-way
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Old 08-15-2014, 02:09 PM   #27
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If you choose to install a fire system it must be installed per the rules. You may not leave bits and pieces out and choose to do it any old way.
What rules? It's a private vessel. There are no rules it HAS to follow. Sure there is common sense that should be used. Like following the manufacturers RECOMMENDATIONS. But you don't have to have a manual pull. You don't have to have an engine shut down system. You don't have to make and install an automatic ER vent block off system. Etc.

Sure they are all good ideas. But there are no rules for a pleasure craft that say you have to have them. You can just install a fire bottle with only a heat sensor on it to activate it and be done with it if that is what you close to do. And in fact they sell a basic systems like that.

Heck you could buy an automatic system that has a manual pull with it and leave off the manual pull if you felt like it. No one is going to come and fine you.
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Old 08-15-2014, 04:35 PM   #28
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Capt Bill and everyone else THANKS, as I suspected on a private vessel it is not required. Nice, but not required. I do plan to install the auto detect and activate system with a manual activation cord outside the engine room. As for the ventilation panels, I suspect I'll pass. I do have the ability to shut down the engines from the helm ( a key and stop switch) and the blowers from the helm (0n/Off and the ckt breaker panel) which seems enough for me. My insurance who i talked to this morning is worldwide and does not require it, by I do get a $12 discount for having it, so they don't really care.

Again my thanks
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Old 08-15-2014, 04:52 PM   #29
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I prefer halon systems.I've seen them save lives in auto racing and restaurant kitchens.They should work really well in a boats engine room where the halon could be easily contain by having a system that automatically shuts down everything in the engine room,including any vents,blowers,fans,fuel pumps,all electrical equipment,and disconnects the batteries from the boats systems.

Fire Suppression Systems | | PassageMaker


And these systems may help save on insurance costs.
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Old 08-15-2014, 05:43 PM   #30
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I prefer halon systems.I've seen them save lives in auto racing and restaurant kitchens.They should work really well in a boats engine room where the halon could be easily contain by having a system that automatically shuts down everything in the engine room,including any vents,blowers,fans,fuel pumps,all electrical equipment,and disconnects the batteries from the boats systems.

Fire Suppression Systems | | PassageMaker


And these systems may help save on insurance costs.
While I agree systems like that are great. A complete system like you describe is not that easy to put together nor cheap to assemble and install. And as Scott mentioned, you better be able to override them in a hurry if need be.

Also since they are not required on a private vessel, other than one built to class, I doubt you would save much on your insurance premium. But it would be comforting to have on board.

And of course you can't buy a true Halon system anymore. But you probably know that.
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Old 08-15-2014, 06:58 PM   #31
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for those interested....general info...not specific to your boat.

USCG: Fixed Fire Extinguishing Systems for T-Boats
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Old 08-15-2014, 07:39 PM   #32
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$12 discount? YAHOO!

Smoke detectors are great for alarms alerting you of a potential fire but you want the system to dump on an actual fire. For an auto discharge system, use thermal detectors. Where I used to work, we had a computer room protected by smoke detector activated Halon 1301 system. A small instrument power supply overheated one night and dumped $140K worth of Halon based on a little smoke. A 50 cent fuse down powered the power supply before getting anywhere near a fire.
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Old 08-15-2014, 10:43 PM   #33
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The old system , where a cable is pulled , the exhaust blower is de-powered and the ER vents are closed ,
then massive CO2 is released seems reliable.
This is what I've got courtesy of previous commercial survey requirements.

All manual, simple to operate, and totally over the top.

Unless my ER is on fire of course.
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Old 08-15-2014, 10:53 PM   #34
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Nice!
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Old 08-16-2014, 12:33 AM   #35
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To my thinking there is no point in having an automatic discharge Halon type system without an automatic shutdown. If the engine keeps running during the discharge, it will just pass the agent out through the exhaust and you'll never get enough of a concentration to put out the fire.

This wasn't an issue with CO2 systems as the CO2 would shut the engine down. Of course the draw back was that it would kill you if you happened to be in the engine room when it went off.

The nice thing about the current extinguishing agents is that they will put out fires at lower concentrations than it takes to kill you. That's also why you don't oversize the system just to be sure you have enough.
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Old 08-16-2014, 12:46 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt.Bill11 View Post
While I agree systems like that are great. A complete system like you describe is not that easy to put together nor cheap to assemble and install. And as Scott mentioned, you better be able to override them in a hurry if need be.

Also since they are not required on a private vessel, other than one built to class, I doubt you would save much on your insurance premium. But it would be comforting to have on board.

And of course you can't buy a true Halon system anymore. But you probably know that.
Yep.All the newer systems I have seen were custom designed,and they may have used CO2 or something else.


Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
for those interested....general info...not specific to your boat.

USCG: Fixed Fire Extinguishing Systems for T-Boats
Thanks for the info.Bookmarked.



Quote:
Originally Posted by High Wire View Post
$12 discount? YAHOO!

Smoke detectors are great for alarms alerting you of a potential fire but you want the system to dump on an actual fire. For an auto discharge system, use thermal detectors. Where I used to work, we had a computer room protected by smoke detector activated Halon 1301 system. A small instrument power supply overheated one night and dumped $140K worth of Halon based on a little smoke. A 50 cent fuse down powered the power supply before getting anywhere near a fire.
Those would be hard to hear on some boats but I can't leave well enough alone.Modify them suckers with an external alarm.

Ouch! Dumping that much halon had to hurt some feelings and pockets.



Quote:
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This is what I've got courtesy of previous commercial survey requirements.

All manual, simple to operate, and totally over the top.

Unless my ER is on fire of course.
That is a sweet set up.



Quote:
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To my thinking there is no point in having an automatic discharge Halon type system without an automatic shutdown. If the engine keeps running during the discharge, it will just pass the agent out through the exhaust and you'll never get enough of a concentration to put out the fire.

This wasn't an issue with CO2 systems as the CO2 would shut the engine down. Of course the draw back was that it would kill you if you happened to be in the engine room when it went off.

The nice thing about the current extinguishing agents is that they will put out fires at lower concentrations than it takes to kill you. That's also why you don't oversize the system just to be sure you have enough.
I thought halon would shut down an engine?I know a large diesel may not be choked out.

CO2 is pretty thick and will choke about anything.

Yeah,I hate being sprayed with CO2.Glad it isn't to rough on person.
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Old 08-16-2014, 07:38 AM   #37
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Mark: I would ask- if you heard the audio alarm what would you do? If your answer is to go into the engine room, I would warn you not to. Both your older Halon and CO2 displace the oxygen if the audio alarm is used to warn you to get out of the engine room then that is a good thing. Some systems do come with an audio alarm to clear engine room just prior to the release of the agent.
Good luck, I miss the old halon it worked great.
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Old 08-16-2014, 09:15 AM   #38
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"The old system , where a cable is pulled , the exhaust blower is de-powered and the ER vents are closed ,then massive CO2 is released seems reliable."

I haven't been around trawlers for very long, but I don't recall seeing engine room vent covers installed on any that I looked at before buying. I installed them myself on my previous boat. Anybody have photos of theirs or a place to purchase or designs to build?
I bought a yard of contact paper which I can quickly (I think) stick over the vent drill from outside the boat to stop air from getting into the engine room.
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Old 08-16-2014, 09:44 AM   #39
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Just my thoughts; in trying to get a better understanding of how the fire suppression and auto shutdown works from an electrical stand point I called fire boy with the unit number on my boat and they said they would get back to me with relevant info. They never did.

I would prefer an alarm system with a manual shutdown of the engines and a manual discharge. Things malfunction and like Keith said sometimes the smoke gets out of electrical systems and they break.

So a malfunction could shutdown the engines and deploy the retardant at the wrong time. Aircraft do not auto shutdown engines for obvious reasons, why should boats.

Memory item for engine fire warning:
* Shutdown engines unless doing so would cause a greater emergency
* Turn off blowers
* Deploy supression agent
* Call CG
* Evaluate situation and consider next course of action
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Old 08-16-2014, 11:08 AM   #40
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Typically, unless you have engine breathers / direct inflow of air to engine's air intake from somewhere other than the engine room the CO2 or Halon is going to shut the engine down for you in about a heartbeat.
One drawback to the manual discharge system is something starting on fire when no one is on board. Everything is a compromise.
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