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Old 03-24-2012, 06:00 AM   #21
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RE: Electo scan, microphor processor or tank

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psneeld wrote:Yeah...just did some rereading...it discusses the standard which isn't hard to meet...but then does say that they have to be certified...doesn't mean I couldn't apply for certification...
*The standard may not be hard to meet but the process to achieve those standards can be very difficult to document and prove. Note the number of devices built into a LectraSan to monitor proper operation, your good intentions are not an acceptable equivalent.
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Old 03-24-2012, 07:17 AM   #22
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Electo scan, microphor processor or tank

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RickB wrote:psneeld wrote:Yeah...just did some rereading...it discusses the standard which isn't hard to meet...but then does say that they have to be certified...doesn't mean I couldn't apply for certification...
*The standard may not be hard to meet but the process to achieve those standards can be very difficult to document and prove. Note the number of devices built into a LectraSan to monitor proper operation, your good intentions are not an acceptable equivalent.

*Ther reason the devices are complicated and difficult to manufacture*is because they are automated for idiots.

I agree that certifying an automated device which I'm sure the USCG wants is very difficult otherwise there would be more and cheaper models out there.

So I'll leave it at that.



-- Edited by psneeld on Saturday 24th of March 2012 07:18:33 AM


-- Edited by psneeld on Saturday 24th of March 2012 07:19:25 AM
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Old 03-24-2012, 01:53 PM   #23
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RE: Electo scan, microphor processor or tank

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Gemma wrote:
KSanders - The Raritan Hold n' Treat sounds like what I'm looking for too.* But I have an issue finding a very low spot for the combo tank.* How critical is it that the top of the tank unit is below the head?
*I'd call Vic over at Raritan about that one.

My first thought is that waste flows downhill.
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Old 03-25-2012, 12:10 AM   #24
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RE: Electo scan, microphor processor or tank

Only boats 66'+ LOA need a Type II...so unless your boat is at least 66'you're better off with an Electro Scan (or PuraSan if your toilet uses fresh water)...'cuz Type II is a LOT more expensive, requires a LOT more maintenance, yet the only thing it does even as well as an ElectroScan or PuraSan, much less any better, is reduce the level of particulate matter. While the law only requires Type I to reduce bacteria count to a a max of 1000/100 ml, the ElectroScan and PuraSan actually reduce it to
Mobile Bay is NOT a NDZ and never has been....in fact, there aren't ANY Mississippi waters on the EPA list of NDZs. http://water.epa.gov/polwaste/vwd/vsdnozone.cfm There are only two NDZs on the whole Gulf of Mexico, both in FL waters--Destin Harbor and the Keys. The discharge of treated waste from a USCG certified device is legal everywhere else. And btw, "no discharge" laws ONLY apply to sewage ("Sewage means human body wastes and the wastes from toilets and other receptacles intended to receive or retain body waste)...they do not apply to gray water, bilge water, boat washing or ANYthing else. And ONLY the feds can declare a body of water an NDZ. The feds did make several small areas of the FL Keys National Marine Sanctuary (all clearly marked on a charts) specially protected waters in which ONLY engine cooling water can go overboard...but that's to protect sensitive reefs and doesn't apply anywhere else.

That doesn't mean, however, that there aren't any misguided marinas who made themselves "no discharge" in the mistaken belief that they're "doing the right thing" (when in fact the discharge from a treatment device is actually cleaner than the water in any marina!)...Marinas are private property and make any rules they want to as long they don't violate federal law.

And as for where any "3 mile limits" begin... they extend 3 miles in any direction from the nearest land OR island...so if Ship Island is more than 3 miles from the mainland, the 3 mile limit extends 3 miles from the beach AND 3 miles from the island. All the waters that are between are outside the "3 mile limit."

Catalina Island in SoCal is a great example...the 3 mile limit extends 3 miles from the mainland and also 3 miles from the island...leaving 20 of the famous 26 miles between them outside any 3 mile limit except for the waters around any other island you might pass on your way.

Re the Raritan 'Hold 'n' Treat system: it's not necessary to buy their "bundle"...the controls can be retrofitted to use with any existing holding tank and overboard discharge pump--and the treatment device of course. And btw, Ronco Plastics http://www.ronco-plastics.net/marinetanks.html (no relation to the VegoMatic Ronco) supplies 99% of Raritan's holding tanks...they sell direct for a LOT less than Raritan's prices!

You'll love having the freedom from pumpouts...even from tank maintenance unless you stumble over a "no discharge" marina or cruise to Destin Harbor!
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Old 03-25-2012, 04:01 AM   #25
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RE: Electo scan, microphor processor or tank

Just wish the states would spend some of their boating money on installing, fixing and maintaining pumpout systems.

Whatever for?

Folks are pretty responsible , yet municapilities are delighted to have "an emergency" every year decade after decade, and dump millions of gallons into places like the Long Island Sound on a timetable.
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Old 03-25-2012, 10:38 AM   #26
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RE: Electo scan, microphor processor or tank

Hmm,* Good information Peggy.

But I think I will stick with my type II Microphor.* I don't know what they cost now, but well worth the cost considering the simplicity of operation. No moving parts, no pumps, no electrical and maintenance is adding one cup of swimming pool chlorine tablets to a flow through chlorinator once a year.* I did open the inspection plate about 5 years ago and there was nothing in it after 30 years of use.* Amazing!!

I wish I could say the same for the heads.* Macerater pump, associated electrical, seals and salt water equals pain in the butt!!

Larry B
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Old 03-25-2012, 01:29 PM   #27
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Electo scan, microphor processor or tank

Depending on when you bought it, your Microphor MIGHT actually be* a Type I....they did make a Type I* in the mid-90s but discontinued it after only a very few years.

Macerater pump, associated electrical, seals and salt water equals pain in the butt!!

Not when good quality equipment is installed correctly and operated and maintained according to directions.

...doesn't mean I couldn't apply for certification...

Only if you want to build the device and pay for an approved independent lab to do the testing, then submit those test results to the* CG...and every 5 years, pay a lab to retest it and resubmit it for certification. I think you'll find it a lot easier and cheaper to install a proven device from a reputable mfr.

I agree that certifying an automated device which I'm sure the USCG wants is very difficult otherwise there would be more and cheaper models out there.

Not the reason at all. It's the enviro-nazis, not the certification process, that's prevented the development of better and cheaper treatment devices. Every year for 5 consecutive years, US Congressman Jim Saxton (R-NJ) introduced a bill that would have lowered the legal* bacteria count for Type I and II devices from their current levels to a max of 10/100 ml, and allow any vessel equipped with a device that meets that standard (btw, the Raritan LectraSan, PuraSan and ElectroScan, and the Groco ThermoPure all do meet that proposed new standard) to use 'em in ALL waters including NDZs....none of 'em ever even made it out of committee to the House floor...the environmental lobby who wants the whole world to be an NDZ--headed by Ed McKiernan, recently retired president of SeaLand Technology (yes, those wonderful folks who also make the VacuFlush) blocked it every year. He finally gave up.* You can read his last try here: http://www.theorator.com/bills108/hr1027.html** So the REAL reason there are no new treatment devices is because no mfr is gonna invest a penny in R&D for a device that, if the enviro-nuts are successful,* they may never be able to market. You'll get a good idea of what Raritan and other equipment mfrs have been up against by reading this: McKiernan-Husick MSD White Paper & rebuttal

But I have an issue finding a very low spot for the combo tank.* How critical is it that the top of the tank unit is below the head?

It's a common issue and there are workarounds if it 's not possible...call Raritan.* 800-352-5630 x 6.* Vic Willman has retired after 40 years there....ask for Jerry.

The Nature's Head composting toilet meets all "No Discharge" regulations and is a U.S Coast Guard Approved type III marine head. USCG Certification

Fred...* Federal law defines a Type III as "a device that is designed to prevent the overboard discharge of treated or untreated sewage or any waste derived from sewage"* and ANY device that meets that definition--even a coffee can!-- is automatically a USCG certified Type III MSD....no testing, no actual certification required.

And btw, the AirHead and Nature's Head are actually dessicators, not composters.

...yet municapilities are delighted to have "an emergency" every year decade after decade, and dump millions of gallons into places like the Long Island Sound on a timetable.

Every YEAR??? Where have you been, Fred...that happens every time it rains! If you like composters and dessicators, you'll LOVE incinerators...check these out:* - I N C I N O L E T - * ** <a href="http://www.thezld.com/">The ZLD
</a>Trust me, you don't want to be downwind of either one!






-- Edited by HeadMistress on Sunday 25th of March 2012 01:41:19 PM
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Old 03-25-2012, 02:10 PM   #28
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RE: Electo scan, microphor processor or tank

Peggie, You sure have the scoop on poop. I have learned a lot from your reply's. I have an electro-san device which needs repair. Can I send it back to the factory to get checked over and do I need some sort of certification on board? Can the factory test it or should I just order parts and make it work? What I would like to do is run the electro-san device into a holding tank and have a switch to pump out the holding tank all at once. While underway. If I pipe all the sinks and shower water into this holding tank then I should meet the no discharge requirement. Thanks for your help and I saved that web site with all the plastic tanks. Paul
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Old 03-25-2012, 02:17 PM   #29
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Electo scan, microphor processor or tank

Greetings,
Oooooohhh Ms. HeadMistress. you used the "N" word (enviro n*****). Mr. rwidman is gonna poop on ya. (see color me gone thread page 3). Not trying to pick on you Ms. HM, your contributions here have been above invaluable. Just trying to point out the ludicrousness of some peoples sensitivities. VERY sorry for the high-jack.* Where's OTDE when you need it?


-- Edited by RT Firefly on Sunday 25th of March 2012 02:17:52 PM
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Old 03-25-2012, 03:57 PM   #30
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RE: Electo scan, microphor processor or tank

You know Peggie, for years you've been giving us the "straight poop" and for years I've imagined you as a scruffy old lady, dressed in a white overall chem-suit, with long rubber gloves and a full-face gas mask armed with the latest and greatest bacteria fighting device.

Now I see your avatar and I've gotta say, "You really clean up nice!!"
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Old 03-25-2012, 04:19 PM   #31
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Electo scan, microphor processor or tank

I have an electro-san device which needs repair. Can I send it back to the factory to get checked over...

Yep..and I'd let them fix whatever's wrong with it. That way, you get a warranty with the new parts and installation. That is...unless it's too old be worth the cost to repair.* If it's old enough to still have the "stove timer" dial controller, it IS too old.

...and do I need some sort of certification on board?

When you pull out the device, you'll be left with a holding tank...right?* In which case, no certification needed.

What I would like to do is run the electro-san device into a holding tank and have a switch to pump out the holding tank all at once.

What's the point of having a treatment device if you're just gonna put the discharge into a tank and dump it, same as you would if you didn't have a treatment device?* Treatment devices are designed--and also ONLY certified--to discharge directly overboard...once the waste goes into a tank, it's no longer considered "treated" waste...so sending the discharge to the tank instead would not make it legal for you to dump the tank inside the "3 mile limit."

If I pipe all the sinks and shower water into this holding tank then I should meet the no discharge requirement.

No matter what you may have heard,* "no discharge" laws do NOT include gray water ("galley, bath and shower water")...they only apply to toilet waste, so you can legally discharge gray water directly overboard.* But even if you did have to hold gray water, CG regs prohibit combining gray water and "black water" (toilet waste) in the same tank...they cannot share any common plumbing, not even a common vent. So you'd have to install a separate gray water tank...which would be a nightmare to maintain.

There are a few--VERY few--non-navigable inland lakes...notably Lake George NY and Winnepesaukee in NH where state laws require gray water holding...they get away with that there because their laws requiring it are so much older than federal marine sanitation laws that the feds have "grandfathered" 'em.* However, there NO--none, nada, ZERO--coastal waters in which gray water holding is required. Misinformation like that gets started by someone who jumps to the wrong conclusion and then is somehow quoted--or misquoted--in print...and the next thing you know, everyone thinks it's true.*

It's even more common when it comes to REAL no discharge regs...an amazingly few boat owners--especially owners* of smaller boats--even know that treatment devices* exist...they think a holding tank is the ONLY option...so, to them, "can't flush the toilet directly overboard" = "no discharge." And that's what they tell others...

So...call Raritan and get the information you need to ship your LectraSan back to them for service...or not. They'll know whether it's worth repairing if you give 'em the serial number.* Do NOT reroute your sink and shower drain plumbing to your holding tank...and either buy a new treatment device and plumb it to discharge directly overboard or refurb your holding tank and plumbing to be a stand-alone system.


-- Edited by HeadMistress on Sunday 25th of March 2012 04:20:41 PM
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Old 03-25-2012, 04:53 PM   #32
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RE: Electo scan, microphor processor or tank

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HeadMistress wrote:
Depending on when you bought it, your Microphor MIGHT actually be* a Type I....they did make a Type I* in the mid-90s but discontinued it after only a very few years.

Macerater pump, associated electrical, seals and salt water equals pain in the butt!!

Not when good quality equipment is installed correctly and operated and maintained according to directions.
Well lets see. . . According to my certification letter from the USCG:

*************** . . .**It is a*Type II* (Below)

*Subject: the US Coast Guard Marine Safety Center, Certification Letter

"US Coast Guard, Commanding *officer, USCG, Marine Safety Center."*

"USCG Recertification of type II Maine Sanitation Device (MSD)"

"Given no modifications have been made, the models specified below continue to meet the requirement of Title 33,*Code of Federal Regulations DFR, Part 159 and shall be labeled in accordance with 33 CFR 159.16."

Then it lists the Microphor Models approved,*Certification No.*and Expiration Dates, which is October 2013.*

Signed by Lt. Commander T.E. Meyers, USCG, Engineering Division
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Old 03-25-2012, 05:15 PM   #33
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RE: Electo scan, microphor processor or tank

This porta-potty contained the "no. 2s" from about 16 people on a four-day outing.* It was surprisingly heavy even though the legal protocol for "no. 1" was to "go" directly into the river.
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Old 03-25-2012, 08:06 PM   #34
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RE: Electo scan, microphor processor or tank

Awww shucks, Al.

Hey...I did say "MIGHT be," Larry... Do you have any idea how few people even know there IS a certification label on the d'd things???

And Mark...Thanks SO much for sharing.
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