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Old 02-07-2016, 08:13 AM   #21
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Not directly related to the OP's question, but . . Some boat manufacturers, including Bertram, were in the habit of mounting these little Dayton-type fans with the axis vertical. In my experience the bearings wear out fast and the fans start to rumble because they are not designed to resist axial loads. The squirel-cage fan in Heron's picture is mounted correctly - with the fan axis horrizontal.
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Old 02-07-2016, 11:31 AM   #22
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Ah..finally someone with the exact same problem and some real world experience with it...thanks !
Just realize that there are several problems that could keep your motor from running. Just because someone else replaced the capacitor and that fixed his doesn't mean that this will fix yours as well.
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Old 02-07-2016, 11:38 PM   #23
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I have had two blowers fail as you described with needing a push to get going. Both of them the cap fixed the problem.
How long ago did you do the cap replacements and can you estimate how many sucessful stop/run cycles the blowers might have gone thru since ?

Also did you use the same 2uF size cap or increase to 4uF ?
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Old 02-08-2016, 06:37 AM   #24
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As far as stop run cycles I have no idea because it went out after we purchased the boat so I don't no how much it was ran before then. Since we live in FL and the PO lived in FL I would guess it was very many. I replaced it with the same uF which I cant tell you if it was 2uF or not. It was not the same physical cap, I just got what the local AC shop had. Had to do some minor mounting changes. Agree with Wesk your problem could be something totally different but for me it was easy and cheap to replace. My tell tail was the fan worked when it got going, and the fan did not feel any bad spots when spun by hand.
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Old 02-08-2016, 07:46 AM   #25
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Greetings,
Mr. C. My non resident alien suggests it may be a bad centrifugal start switch and I quote...


"The OP said his unit has a "run" capacitor, replaced and still not start ... if it runs fine after being turned by hand then it is probably a bad centrifugal start switch inside the end bell of the motor.

It is closed when at rest and on powerup it supplies power to a starting winding. Once up to a certain speed it opens and the motor runs normally. That is why starting by hand works.

If it just hums when power is applied, and then accelerates after a push, listen for the noise of the switch operating, it is a whirr followed by a soft click."
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Old 02-08-2016, 08:27 AM   #26
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How long ago did you do the cap replacements and can you estimate how many sucessful stop/run cycles the blowers might have gone thru since ?

Also did you use the same 2uF size cap or increase to 4uF ?
Capacitors do not wear out from use. If one fails, it is usually from heat and age.
If you replace one that failed, it's best to use the same value. This is not a case where "more is better".
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Old 02-08-2016, 08:54 AM   #27
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Some motors have starting windings that are enabled with a centrifugal switch. I doubt this is that type. If the starting windings or switch failed, it won't start.

I have had the same problem where you have to get it rolling and it goes from there, due to the viscosity of the lubrication being too high, or old. If you can get to the bearings / bushings, replace it with graphite lube and see how that works.
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Old 02-08-2016, 09:56 AM   #28
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Perhaps if I may......

The capacitor you replaced is a "Run" capacitor rather than a start capacitor. As long as the microfarad value is correct, and the rated capacitor voltage is above the supply voltage, physical dimensions should be only a minor concern(mounting).

I would be more concerned with the voltages being supplied from the control board. This is a typical scenario that I have seen on these systems before:

When you turn the fan on, a relay closes to provide voltage to the fan motor. The contacts in this relay after many start and stops tend to get burnt. When this happens, if you check the voltage output to the fan, the voltage appears normal. Since the contacts are burnt, the relay will not pass enough current to allow the fan to run.

This can be checked by applying voltage to the fan. If the fan runs at this point, it is the control board that is at issue. If the fan still does not run, the fan motor will have to be replaced.

If I know what model the unit is I can tell you exactly where to connect voltage to make this test.

Just my $.03
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Old 02-08-2016, 11:42 AM   #29
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Capacitors do not wear out from use. If one fails, it is usually from heat and age.
If you replace one that failed, it's best to use the same value. This is not a case where "more is better".
"how" they fail is irrelevant to the issue at hand...the point is they absolutely do fail...sometimes totally with obvious leakage...sometimes just get weaker but still appear as new.

I replaced a start cap on a home HVAC condenser fan a few months ago. And the unit was not all that old... 2008 vintage condenser. And it was acting exactly like this Cruisair blower... fan would sometimes just refuse to come on...but if I stuck a screwdriver in there and pushed the blades a little, it would run fine. But interestingly, still not quite up to normal RPM (although I didn't realize that at the time)

The cap looked like brand new still. Absolutely no leakage or bulge anywhere.

So I replaced the cap and it went from that situation to running like new again...fan starts instantly and runs full RPM again every time. It was a little surprising as until I replaced the cap I didn't realize the fan was previously running a bit weak even when running.

(did no oiling, btw)
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Old 02-08-2016, 11:51 AM   #30
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As far as stop run cycles I have no idea because it went out after we purchased the boat so I don't no how much it was ran before then. Since we live in FL and the PO lived in FL I would guess it was very many. I replaced it with the same uF which I cant tell you if it was 2uF or not. It was not the same physical cap, I just got what the local AC shop had. Had to do some minor mounting changes. Agree with Wesk your problem could be something totally different but for me it was easy and cheap to replace. My tell tail was the fan worked when it got going, and the fan did not feel any bad spots when spun by hand.
RH...you misunderstand my question. I'm not interested in the cycles before you fixed it but the cycles after you fixed it.

In other words, if replacing the cap "fixed it" just two months ago...it might not really have fixed it and you are just lucky the blower hasn't stopped in a dead zone caused by micro wear of worn motor bushings.

But if you did this 5 years ago for example and have had many many stop run cycles since then, then the cap replacement was for sure the problem cure indeed.
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Old 02-08-2016, 12:18 PM   #31
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Anyone with a boat and or house would do well to buy a meter that can check caps. I've got a Fluke 115 which was around 150 bucks. My neighbors and buds know I have it and that feature is used often. Amazing how many things have caps, and amazing how often they poop.

I even keep a box of random caps, sometimes you find one that is close that keeps you going til you get the right one. Anytime a machine heads for the dump and it has caps, the caps get ripped out, tested and thrown into the box.
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Old 02-08-2016, 12:18 PM   #32
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one was six years before I sold the boat. The present one is six months and running great.
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Old 02-08-2016, 01:17 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RT Firefly View Post
Greetings,
Mr. C. My non resident alien suggests it may be a bad centrifugal start switch and I quote...


"The OP said his unit has a "run" capacitor, replaced and still not start ... if it runs fine after being turned by hand then it is probably a bad centrifugal start switch inside the end bell of the motor.

It is closed when at rest and on powerup it supplies power to a starting winding. Once up to a certain speed it opens and the motor runs normally. That is why starting by hand works.

If it just hums when power is applied, and then accelerates after a push, listen for the noise of the switch operating, it is a whirr followed by a soft click."
It would be a surprised if that small motor has a start winding. The centrifugal switch means their is a start and a run winding. Little blower motors do not need a lot of starting torque.
My drier, well pump, air compressor, Jabsco utility pump all have start windings with centrifugal switch.
My furnace blower motors do not.
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Old 02-08-2016, 02:32 PM   #34
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Greetings,
I haven't got a clue WHAT the problem could be but it has also been suggested that the OP...

"Going to the Dayton website with the motor ID will get him a circuit diagram then he will know what he has rather than spend another 30 posts jousting with amateur electricians.

The starting winding is out of the circuit when the motor is up to speed. It most certainly will run as that is the normal operating condition. It is only in circuit when starting ... that is why is it called a "starting" winding.

Maybe suggest he Google electric motor centrifugal start switch circuit."
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Old 02-08-2016, 04:27 PM   #35
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If the motor has 3 wires, it probably has a start winding, If it has 2 wires, then it doesn't (unless the start capacitor is inside the motor housing). In which case it would possibly have a centrifugal start switch. (do not count the ground wire).
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Old 02-08-2016, 05:14 PM   #36
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Most fan motors do not have a centrifugal switch controlling the start winding. They do have a start winding fed through a capacitor that shifts the phase a bit to get some starting torque. No expert here on exactly how they are set up, but they certainly have no switch.

Motors that need good starting torque do use the centrifugal switch, and some use capacitors too.
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Old 02-09-2016, 06:10 PM   #37
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Braved some high winds and cold (cold for here anyway) on the open flybridge to install the new cap today. It worked ! Also interesting is there is no perceptible play in the bearings of either blower... I mean zero (from feel anyway) I mention this because that would make the "stopping in a dead zone, thus not starting the next cycle" theory highly unlikely in this case.

Having said that, the blowers, when off, don't turn quite as "spin forever-ish" as they did this spring (the last time a blower stopped turning....(not this one, it's twin on the other side of the dual air handler box). I hope that is because what little oil is in there is slightly thicker in the colder temps.

And there appears to be no way to oil the bearings...the motor end is sealed and the blower/arbor end impossible to get to. Oh well.

So, works again for now....but we'll see how long it lasts.
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Old 02-09-2016, 06:21 PM   #38
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Greetings,
Mr. C. Glad you're back in business. One technique for oiling those capped/sealed end bearings is to drill a small (1/16") hole just offset a touch from the end "dimple". Oil can then be added as necessary. The arbor end might be reached with one of those red tubes that comes with every WD40 can (and promptly disappears with the first use). I have had occasion to join two together with heat shrink tubing for "extension/remote" oiling. Hold onto that sucker for sure.

NOT suggesting you use WD for lubrication but there ARE aerosol lubricants with that elusive red tube.

Further...the bearings are most likely Oilite and should not need lubrication but they do dry out and I've extended the life of several motors by oiling.
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Old 02-09-2016, 06:23 PM   #39
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Happy ending!
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Old 02-09-2016, 11:55 PM   #40
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The arbor end might be reached with one of those red tubes that comes with every WD40 can (and promptly disappears with the first use).
So true about the red tubes....one would think by 2016 they would have figured out a better method of storing the things than Scotch tape on the can. I suppose a couple of rubber bands (or one wide one) around the can might do the trick but never occurs to me to buy any.
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