Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 09-12-2019, 11:04 PM   #1
Senior Member
 
LeoKa's Avatar
 
City: Port Orchard
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Ironside
Vessel Model: 54' Bruce Roberts design, custom built, steel, sailboat hull, single CAT 3306 Turbo.
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 367
Concrete as ballast in bilge?

My boat is a custom sailboat hull steel construction. The boat is top heavy, due to the upper structure, which is wide and high, plus has thicker steel.
The builder added an I-beam keel to the bottom and mounted about 5000 lbs ballast on it, going forward on the keel.
The boat is too tender and needs more weight at the bottom.
My first idea was to pull the boat out and weld more steel to the I-beam. This should not be a big problem, as long I have the welder and material in place, when I pull out the boat for a bottom job. However, this needs to wait due to budget restrains.
On another forum it was suggested the concrete can be poured into the bilge (permanent ballast) and left alone there forever. It also takes care of the rust in the bilge.
Anyone used this method, or hear of, to increase the ballast volume? Thanks.Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_0491.jpg
Views:	110
Size:	177.9 KB
ID:	93873
__________________
Advertisement

LeoKa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2019, 11:42 PM   #2
Guru
 
koliver's Avatar
 
City: Saltspring Island
Country: BC, canada
Vessel Name: Retreat
Vessel Model: C&L 44
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,126
In 1977 I had a sailboat built. Hull had an enclosed ballast keel. Builder dropped in some lead ingots and topped it with steel punchings in concrete. Smooth off the top far enough below the floor to leave a decent wine cellar.
No deterioration in the 11 yrs I owned that boat.
__________________

__________________
Keith
koliver is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2019, 12:09 AM   #3
Senior Member
 
Sabre602's Avatar
 
City: NW Washington State
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Kingfisher
Vessel Model: 37' converted gillnetter/crabber
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 343
Plenty of wood fishing boats have had concrete poured in for ballast. Keel boats, however, needing more ballast, usually will have steel punchings with concrete poured around them.

Concrete itself may not be dense enough for your needs.
__________________
Anson & Donna

Be kind whenever possible. It is always possible. ~The Dalai Lama
Sabre602 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2019, 06:07 AM   #4
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Country: usa
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 8,020
My dos centavos thoughts --

It is important to keep the interior of a steel hull clean, dry and hopefully properly painted. Concrete allows just the reverse, retaining moisture between the steel concrete interface. The product of choice is lead, placed on the hull interior.

Just curious though, what was BR's build plan for ballast weight and placement? An I beam welded to the hull exterior seems counter intuitive for attaining the slippery shape a sailing hull needs. Generally, the plans should take into account the construction of a sailing vessel that should ideally be self righting from a 90 degree roll. Are the top sides all steel too? I thought BR's designs used Al.
sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2019, 06:21 AM   #5
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 19,650
ON bulldozers the tracks are flexed around "track pins" whicg with there bushings are replaced by specialized companies.

The pins are 8 to 14 inches long (or bigger) and 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 in diameter(or bigger) and can usually be bought for scrap value , if you pay cash.

The pins will stand easily in most keels and dry pre mix concrete will fill the small spaces between pins if brushed on a couple of times. A thin file can compress the concrete to make sure there are no voids.

By using different sized track pins a very dense fill can be obtained.

The concrete is hardened by laying wet towels in the top and allowing a nice slow cure.

Steel is not as dense as lead , but far denser than just concrete to lower the ballast CG.

Steel track pins are also way cheaper than lead.
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2019, 07:19 AM   #6
Bud
Senior Member
 
Bud's Avatar
 
City: KEY COLONY BEACH
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Izzy Rose
Vessel Model: Grand Banks 49
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 213
I used sand in the bow of my last boat> It had a compartment below deck in front of the engine room. I sealed it off from the bilge and emptied bags of sand in there. I figured it would come out easy enough with a wet dry vac if needed.
Bud is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2019, 12:24 PM   #7
Guru
 
AKDoug's Avatar
 
City: Kenai, Alaska
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Melanie Rose
Vessel Model: 1999 Willard PH
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 795
Early Willards had concrete with steel as ballast, the concrete swelled as moisture permeated the concrete. My vessel has fully encapsulated lead as ballast, but I think as long as it is encapsulated to prevent moisture intrusion it would be fine. Many Willards had the concrete chiseled out and replaced, you might check the Willard thread on the topic.
AKDoug is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2019, 04:09 PM   #8
Senior Member
 
LeoKa's Avatar
 
City: Port Orchard
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Ironside
Vessel Model: 54' Bruce Roberts design, custom built, steel, sailboat hull, single CAT 3306 Turbo.
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by koliver View Post
In 1977 I had a sailboat built. Hull had an enclosed ballast keel. Builder dropped in some lead ingots and topped it with steel
No deterioration in the 11 yrs I owned that boat.


Has it been anything between the steel surface and the concrete?
LeoKa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2019, 04:14 PM   #9
Senior Member
 
LeoKa's Avatar
 
City: Port Orchard
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Ironside
Vessel Model: 54' Bruce Roberts design, custom built, steel, sailboat hull, single CAT 3306 Turbo.
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunchaser View Post
My dos centavos thoughts --

It is important to keep the interior of a steel hull clean, dry and hopefully properly painted. Concrete allows just the reverse, retaining moisture between the steel concrete interface. The product of choice is lead, placed on the hull interior.

Just curious though, what was BR's build plan for ballast weight and placement? An I beam welded to the hull exterior seems counter intuitive for attaining the slippery shape a sailing hull needs. Generally, the plans should take into account the construction of a sailing vessel that should ideally be self righting from a 90 degree roll. Are the top sides all steel too? I thought BR's designs used Al.

Do I understand you correctly that you do not recommend pouring concrete into the bilge? What if the bilge is cleaned and rust sealed with POR-15 ?
I do have lead bricks in the forward bilge area. I could not access anything midship, yet. There is no extra weigh the engine room, because the boat was already aft heavy. They had to weld on an air tank to the aft, for this reason. Buoyancy was messed up.


This was a custom built. BR design was used for the hull only. The top structure was altered, I think. The top was built out of steel, too. It is actually a bit thicker steel than the hull.
The I-beam keel is all the way at the bottom. It also protects the prop and the two keel fuel tanks.
LeoKa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2019, 04:15 PM   #10
Senior Member
 
LeoKa's Avatar
 
City: Port Orchard
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Ironside
Vessel Model: 54' Bruce Roberts design, custom built, steel, sailboat hull, single CAT 3306 Turbo.
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by FF View Post
Steel track pins are also way cheaper than lead.
I like this idea. I think it is doable. Now, I just need to find the place where they sell these pins.
LeoKa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2019, 04:17 PM   #11
Senior Member
 
LeoKa's Avatar
 
City: Port Orchard
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Ironside
Vessel Model: 54' Bruce Roberts design, custom built, steel, sailboat hull, single CAT 3306 Turbo.
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bud View Post
I used sand in the bow of my last boat> It had a compartment below deck in front of the engine room. I sealed it off from the bilge and emptied bags of sand in there. I figured it would come out easy enough with a wet dry vac if needed.

Does this sand volume move around? How do you secure it? What about moisture?
LeoKa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2019, 04:18 PM   #12
Senior Member
 
LeoKa's Avatar
 
City: Port Orchard
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Ironside
Vessel Model: 54' Bruce Roberts design, custom built, steel, sailboat hull, single CAT 3306 Turbo.
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by AKDoug View Post
Early Willards had concrete with steel as ballast, the concrete swelled as moisture permeated the concrete. My vessel has fully encapsulated lead as ballast, but I think as long as it is encapsulated to prevent moisture intrusion it would be fine. Many Willards had the concrete chiseled out and replaced, you might check the Willard thread on the topic.

I have some lead already, too. It seems that not enough volume. Back then, lead must have been more affordable. Today, that is not the case.
LeoKa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2019, 04:20 PM   #13
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: AICW
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 19,837
I agree with the no concrete against steel.


A Google search had several hits where it was denied use on European boats.


A thin paint or epoxy coating in my mind would not be enough.
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2019, 05:22 PM   #14
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,005
Sell it and get another boat.
__________________
Eric

North Western Washington State USA
Nomad Willy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2019, 05:34 PM   #15
Senior Member
 
LeoKa's Avatar
 
City: Port Orchard
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Ironside
Vessel Model: 54' Bruce Roberts design, custom built, steel, sailboat hull, single CAT 3306 Turbo.
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomad Willy View Post
Sell it and get another boat.


I like the boat. I’ll keep it.
There is always a way to solve problems.
LeoKa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2019, 05:45 PM   #16
Guru
 
City: New Orleans
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Scot Free
Vessel Model: Cheoy Lee 53' Efficient
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 725
Just remember that adding any significant amount of ballast will decrease the freeboard and thus the safety on your boat. It also will increase the draft. Can you also reduce weight aloft to compensate?
McGillicuddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2019, 07:22 PM   #17
Guru
 
Sailor of Fortune's Avatar
 
City: Florida
Country: usa
Vessel Model: "Ho"made
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,769
Keep the boat but find an alternative to concrete. I remember when local steel fish boats grounded, a breech in the steel would put saltwater between concrete and hull. Company owner would sell those boats quick..
__________________
Jack (Steve?)
Sailor of Fortune is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2019, 06:30 AM   #18
Guru
 
Keysdisease's Avatar
 
City: South Florida
Country: USA
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 700
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunchaser View Post
My dos centavos thoughts --

It is important to keep the interior of a steel hull clean, dry and hopefully properly painted. Concrete allows just the reverse, retaining moisture between the steel concrete interface.
What sunchaser said. This used to be a fairly common practice, but in the long run can cause serious problems that will remain hidden until they perhaps become dangerous.

And, if the rest of your boat is well maintained I assure you that some day someone will have to remove that concrete to replace hull plating, not a pretty or inexpensive undertaking.

Class like Lloyds, RINA, ABS do not allow this technique, and for the same reason spray on insulation is not recommended either, you need access to your hull plating for inspection and maintenance.

Do not ask me how I know
Keysdisease is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2019, 07:40 AM   #19
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 19,650
"Now, I just need to find the place where they sell these track pins."

Google in your area shops that repair bulldozers or cranes , call and ask if they rebuild tracks .Who does?

IF they do drive over and ask if you can purchase their scrap rack pins for cash.

This will allow you to go thru their piles of scrap metal, and take only the size pins that are useful.

Last time I bought 7,000lbs I had a Porsche powered dune buggy , got everything home in 3 trips with pins laying on the floor.

Discussing cash purchases is far better done in person rather than on phone , never with E mail.

Enjoy! Its boating at its best!
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2019, 07:57 AM   #20
Guru
 
City: Satsuma FL/Daytona Beach Shores
Country: United States
Vessel Name: No Mo Trawla
Vessel Model: Hurricane SS188
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,179
Was wondering if old elevator weights would do the trick? Some years back, I found a couple in an old house we bought. They seemed to be solid steel or iron and very heavy. I would guess they were close to 100 pounds each. The elevator companies probably recycle them nowadays but you might want to contact one and see if they would sell you a few.

The key here is how much ballast by weight do you need.
__________________

__________________
Buffalo Bluff Light 28
Donsan is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:38 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012
×