Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 05-21-2015, 08:08 PM   #1
Guru
 
JDCAVE's Avatar
 
City: Lions Bay, BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Phoenix Hunter
Vessel Model: Kadey Krogen 42 (1985)
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,614
Check yer bilge pumps!

I was mucking about in the engine room, replacing the gaskets on my Graco raw water filter basket. I threw a bucket of water in the bilge. Bilge pump came on but no water came out. After mucking about found that the check valve was stuck. So check your bilge pumps to ensure they are working according to specs.


Jim
Sent from my iPad using Trawler Forum
__________________
Advertisement

JDCAVE is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2015, 08:29 PM   #2
Guru
 
City: Full Time Cruising East Coast
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Meridian
Vessel Model: Krogen-42
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 757
That's why check valves are not recommended on bilge pumps
__________________

__________________
-------------------------
Terry
Meridian
KK-42097
meridian is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2015, 08:40 PM   #3
Guru
 
JDCAVE's Avatar
 
City: Lions Bay, BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Phoenix Hunter
Vessel Model: Kadey Krogen 42 (1985)
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,614
Check yer bilge pumps!

So I wondered about that. Clearly there are pros and cons. You don't want water entering the bilge from a through hull if you are rolling around in the trough, but then there is the stuck check valve issue. What are the ABYC guidelines on them?

Jim
Sent from my iPad using Trawler Forum
JDCAVE is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2015, 08:49 PM   #4
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,937
No check valves...too much restriction on pumps that can barely handle head without a significant reduction in performance. Not to say one small one with a check valve to keep the bilge relatively dry is a crime if there is plenty more pumping capacity.


Vented loops or just a high enough above the waterline discharge so a loop isn't necessary.
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2015, 08:51 PM   #5
Guru
 
N4712's Avatar
 
City: South FL
Country: U.S.A
Vessel Name: Oliver
Vessel Model: Nordhavn 47 Hull# 12
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,613
I concur with Scott, our whale gulper has a built in check valve sort flap so we don't need it. I would remove the check and add a loop lie, said above. What kind of bilge pump is it?
__________________
Thanks, Oliver
M/V Oliver
Nordhavn 47 Hull #12
N4712 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2015, 08:58 PM   #6
Guru
 
JDCAVE's Avatar
 
City: Lions Bay, BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Phoenix Hunter
Vessel Model: Kadey Krogen 42 (1985)
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,614
Check yer bilge pumps!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JDCAVE View Post
So I wondered about that. Clearly there are pros and cons. You don't want water entering the bilge from a through hull if you are rolling around in the trough, but then there is the stuck check valve issue. What are the ABYC guidelines on them?

Jim
Sent from my iPad using Trawler Forum

Digging further, this article, page 6 para 4, by Steve D'Antonio:

http://rjwsurvey.com/uploads/Plumbing_the_Depths.pdf

"Note that a check valve is not considered an anti-siphon device and is expressly prohibited for this use under ABYC standards."

Sounds like it should be removed. Sorry, I was writing this as you guys were replying. Thanks, as always for your feedback.

Jim
Sent from my iPad using Trawler Forum
JDCAVE is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2015, 09:48 PM   #7
Guru
 
JDCAVE's Avatar
 
City: Lions Bay, BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Phoenix Hunter
Vessel Model: Kadey Krogen 42 (1985)
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,614
Check yer bilge pumps!

This article emphasizes the need for a riser loop.

http://www.yachtsurvey.com/bilge_pumps.htm

"For power boats, I recommend a riser loop height of about 18" above the water line. For sailboats, you have to consider the heel angle of the hull, which means that it will probably be tapped into the cockpit scuppers or sink drain. Here you have to be real careful of judging the water line right. "


Jim
Sent from my iPad using Trawler Forum
JDCAVE is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2015, 11:38 PM   #8
Guru
 
AusCan's Avatar
 
City: Adelaide
Country: Australia
Vessel Name: Kokanee
Vessel Model: Cuddles 30 Pilot House Motor Sailer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,098
Its more difficult to keep a dry bilge without a check valve, but I'd rather have a bit of water down there than the potential for a LOT of water.


Besides the check valve sticking, bilge pumps often fail due getting gummed up with everything that makes it way down to thee bottom of the bilge. Bits of wire, hair, pistachio shells, fuel filter o-rings, etc.


It's worth pulling them out on a regular basis to remove the shroud around the pump drive blade, and cleaning all the gunk than collects in there. They may still operate when gummed up, but capacity is greatly decreased.


Another check worth doing occasionally, is allowing full flow from your main raw water inlet thru-hull to flow into your bilge. See how well your main bilge pump keeps up.
AusCan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2015, 12:17 AM   #9
Guru
 
janice142's Avatar
 
City: St. Pete, FL
Country: USofA
Vessel Name: Seaweed
Vessel Model: Schucker mini-trawler
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 914
Send a message via AIM to janice142 Send a message via MSN to janice142 Send a message via Yahoo to janice142 Send a message via Skype™ to janice142
I had one of my two Johnson2000 units (the orange ones) turn on but not pump water The 800 gph SeaSense is the one that does the work and the two bigger ones are tested on the 1st of each month.

Usual testing is to click them On (Auto/Off/On switch) and then back to automatic. Next, I lift the float switches. Well, all was fine so I thought.

Then when they pulled the V8 there was water in the bilge. One pump although it was running did not pump water. It was past it's guarantee date so was replaced. I'd never tested to see if it would pump though the motor ran fine. The suggestion to flood the bilge with raw water is a good one except my raw water is above the waterline (barely!)

Now when I fill the water tank with the hose I flood the bilges with fresh water and make sure both big pumps will actually vacate the water.

Side note on Johnson's: the guarantee is now five years. It was three. Mine was six years old when it croaked though it had never pumped anything in all that time. Maybe I should have gotten it wet or sprayed the impeller?

Any thoughts on that for those high water pumps? Should I spray the ones that are never wet with something?
__________________
Janice aboard Seaweed, living the good life afloat...
http://janice142.com
janice142 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2015, 09:46 AM   #10
TF Site Team
 
Larry M's Avatar
 
City: JAX, FL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Hobo
Vessel Model: Krogen 42-120
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,751
Correcting the problem on the KK42 can be difficult. The sump within the bilge is just big enough to contain the pump and a float. With out a check valve, the water in the hose with or with out a loop, when the pump shuts off, runs back into the sump causing the pump to turn on again. I've tried different size pumps, different switches and I reinstalled a check valve. It's not right but it's something I've learned to live with.

The 18" loop that was mentioned isn't practical since the salon floor is less than that above the water line.
Larry M is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2015, 10:27 AM   #11
Wannabe
 
Britannia's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Stillwater
Vessel Model: Kadey-Krogen 54
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 766
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry M View Post
...

The 18" loop that was mentioned isn't practical since the salon floor is less than that above the water line.
In my KK54 the loop for the ER bilge pump goes up behind a panel in one of the cabinets in the saloon.

Richard
Stillwater
KK54 #5
Britannia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2015, 11:01 AM   #12
Guru
 
JDCAVE's Avatar
 
City: Lions Bay, BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Phoenix Hunter
Vessel Model: Kadey Krogen 42 (1985)
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,614
Thanks Larry. I was trying to figure out how to do that myself. My check valve is bronze. Should it be replace with another material?

Richard, I'm not sure that might be practical in my situation as there is no cabinet directly above the through hull.


Jim
Sent from my iPad using Trawler Forum
JDCAVE is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2015, 11:25 AM   #13
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,937
for deep sumps, deep in the bilge...try one of these....no check valve necessary.


They aren't very high volume though.


With a bronze strainer next to the float instead of the pump itself...it will pump all but an inch or so out of the sump.


Jabsco 36600 Series Diaphragm Bilge Pump
Attached Images
 
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2015, 12:01 PM   #14
Art
Guru
 
Art's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 7,986
Hi All - Great Thread!

I post here to get in the loop. Will review posted links soon as time permits.

Art
Art is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2015, 02:47 PM   #15
TF Site Team
 
Larry M's Avatar
 
City: JAX, FL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Hobo
Vessel Model: Krogen 42-120
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,751
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
for deep sumps, deep in the bilge...try one of these....no check valve necessary.


They aren't very high volume though.


With a bronze strainer next to the float instead of the pump itself...it will pump all but an inch or so out of the sump.


Jabsco 36600 Series Diaphragm Bilge Pump
Thanks. I'll take a look at more when we get back to JAX.

You're right about the low flow at 8GPM and 3/4" hose. But it may take care of the check valve issue and the low flow would be ok if there is a second, larger capacity pump for a back up.
Larry M is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2015, 06:35 AM   #16
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,537
"You don't want water entering the bilge from a through hull if you are rolling around in the trough,"

A riser loop requires the SAME amount of power to lift the water to that height as simply discharging the water out of a thru hull at that height,

KISS!
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2015, 12:14 AM   #17
Guru
 
SCOTTEDAVIS's Avatar
 
City: Vero Beach, FL.
Country: US
Vessel Name: FIREFLY
Vessel Model: Pilgrim 40
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 913
Check valves and a bilge pump=NO.


Not on my boat, If that means a bit of water in the bilge, well so be it.
SCOTTEDAVIS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2015, 01:07 AM   #18
TF Site Team
 
Peter B's Avatar
 
City: Brisbane
Country: Australia
Vessel Name: Lotus
Vessel Model: Clipper (CHB) 34 Sedan/Europa style
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 6,671
Send a message via Skype™ to Peter B
I agree no check-valves in bilge pump line, but if the thruhull is well above the waterline, why would you need and anti syphon loop at all..?
__________________
Pete
Peter B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2015, 08:38 AM   #19
Guru
 
caltexflanc's Avatar
 
City: North Carolina for now
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Small Incentive
Vessel Model: Boston Whaler 130 Sport
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,803
You have to define "the water line" at the maximum heel of the boat. I fully agree on "no check valve".
__________________
George

"There's the Right Way, the Wrong Way, and what some guy says he's gotten away with"
caltexflanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2015, 09:06 AM   #20
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,937
I think the usual practice is to run a line into an area where the loop is high enough, such as a locker of behind interior liners, etc.

Sometimes it takes an absurdly long line.

I have seen rules of thumb for the height required to not require a loop....and many say 12 inches (which for many coastal power boats would probably be enough unless you love rough seas).

The "max heel" is usually geared for sailboats, but without a loop with siphon break there is always a chance of siphon induced flooding.
__________________

psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:54 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012