Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 09-07-2016, 12:13 PM   #41
Guru
 
Northern Spy's Avatar
 
City: Powell River, BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Northern Spy
Vessel Model: Nordic Tug 26
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,615
If you have an older Side Power thruster, there may be an upgrade available to prevent solenoid ringing and subsequent "tack welding" of the contacts. They call it an IPC kit.
__________________
Advertisement

Northern Spy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2016, 12:19 PM   #42
Guru
 
Northern Spy's Avatar
 
City: Powell River, BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Northern Spy
Vessel Model: Nordic Tug 26
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,615
Whoever installed your thruster didn't read the manual. The Side Power installation manual is very high quality.

A main switch (*C) that can take the load without noticeable voltage
drop must be installed in the main positive lead so the power for the
thruster can be turned off independent of the rest when not on board
or in emergencies. This should be placed in an easy accessible
place and the boats instructions should inform that this should be
turned off like the boat’s other main switches.
__________________

Northern Spy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2016, 12:19 PM   #43
Guru
 
High Wire's Avatar
 
City: Cape May, NJ and Englewood, FL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Irish Lady
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,504
Thanks for the nudge. My thruster setup is a 1-both-2 battry switch with a 300 amp fuse in the ER. I imagine I could get to it within a minute in a panic situation but far from optimal. I will replace with a Blue Seas 7713 remote battery switch. The PO used to leave this sw in BOTH, not realizing that paralleled both banks ALL THE TIME regardless of the helm battery switch position.
For welded contacts or otherwise mechanically stuck relay, only cutting off the battery source to the thruster will work. Overload trips or the ON/OFF switch on the panel only kill the control power.
__________________
Archie
1984 Monk 36 Hull #46
Englewood, FL and Cape May, NJ
High Wire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2016, 12:38 PM   #44
Guru
 
cardude01's Avatar
 
City: Victoria TX
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Bijou
Vessel Model: 2008 Island Packet steadysailer
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,071
My thruster only works when the key for the main is on. So maybe just turning the key off would do it?
cardude01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2016, 12:48 PM   #45
Guru
 
City: East Coast
Country: USA
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,417
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinped View Post
just looked at it,and it is complete.Works in reverse,push to activate,not deactivate,but that is ok as long as properly labeled.Good find,great idea,kudos.
I have one on my workbench. I bought it because my start battery has no master switch and there's no good place to put one without a fairly long run of expensive and heavy cable.

I haven't gotten around to installing it yet.
WesK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2016, 12:54 PM   #46
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 381
Quote:
Originally Posted by WesK View Post
I have one on my workbench. I bought it because my start battery has no master switch and there's no good place to put one without a fairly long run of expensive and heavy cable.

I haven't gotten around to installing it yet.
let me know the results(perhaps in a pm)as we are starting to kill this post.I am curious to see if you feel in the end it would be satisfactory.
tinped is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2016, 01:23 PM   #47
Guru
 
dhays's Avatar
 
City: Gig Harbor
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Kinship
Vessel Model: North Pacific 43
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 5,035
As Spy noted, if the install was done correctly, I imagine there would have to be some type of manual switch or breaker in the power line from battery to thruster. In my boat, I just don't know if I have one or if I do where it would be. Yet another system to educate myself about. My list keeps growing.
__________________
Regards,

Dave
SPOT page
dhays is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2016, 01:30 PM   #48
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 381
There has to be a breaker between the power source(abyc) to protect the wiring(fuse or circuit breaker,and if the the power source is not within sight of the thruster(such as in the engine room,not chain locker,then the code requires a means of disconnect,Doesnt have to be fused,just a switch within sight(keyword) of the motor,so it can be positively disconnected for service(not an electrical issue,but safety requirement)
tinped is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2016, 04:02 PM   #49
Guru
 
Carolena's Avatar
 
City: DC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Carolena II
Vessel Model: Nordic Tug 32/34
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 605
Well, having looked at all the posts from this morning, I think my reason for sharing the story has rung true - just to let people know about this and to make sure they have a shut off switch and know where it is located. That was my intent.

Just to clarify, we do have a main shutoff for the thruster (apart from the joystick panel, which only shuts off the low amp signal to the control box and solinoid on the motor). It is not the plunger type in the earlier posts - it is actually a large key turn type device (it has a handle but doesn't take a key, just don't know what it is technically called). It would have been a bit more convenient to have it right at the helm, but it is only about six steps away. Once I realized what was happening, I ran to the berth, shut it off, and returned to helm so quickly that no one realized that anything was amiss.

If it turns out the control unit is bad, Sidepower has a revised one that does have a timed shutoff, in addition to a thermal shutdown. I think the timer is around three minutes of the thruster actually running. The shutoff on the joystick switch is 10 min without any use. The three minutes, as well as thermal shutdown, would not have helped do to the tight quarters we were in. I think it is to prevent the unit from running while underway where the crew may not hear it over engine noise (I found one instance of this happening on another forum).

Again, though, the key take away is to make sure you have a shutdown, probably best if it is not tied to any other systems (except maybe the windlass), and know where it is located.
Carolena is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2016, 04:06 PM   #50
Guru
 
City: East Coast
Country: USA
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,417
Quote:
Originally Posted by cardude01 View Post
My thruster only works when the key for the main is on. So maybe just turning the key off would do it?
I doubt it. We don't know what happened in the OP's case but the thought is that if the bow thruster stays on when the switch is off, the relay is probably mechanically stuck or the contacts are welded together. The full current of the thruster motor does not go through your key switch, only the power for the controls.
WesK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2016, 04:26 PM   #51
Guru
 
Carolena's Avatar
 
City: DC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Carolena II
Vessel Model: Nordic Tug 32/34
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 605
Quote:
Originally Posted by WesK View Post
I doubt it. We don't know what happened in the OP's case but the thought is that if the bow thruster stays on when the switch is off, the relay is probably mechanically stuck or the contacts are welded together. The full current of the thruster motor does not go through your key switch, only the power for the controls.
Correct, plus the last thing you want to do in a situation where you would be using the thruster is to shut down the engine - then you loose all control over the vessel. At least we were able to resort to lots of back and fill to turn the boat and avoid hitting anything. That is why I would not want it tied into any other main breakers, either, such as engine or house bank switches.

Cardude - my guess is that the engine switch may shut off power to the thruster control (button or joystick), which is low amperage. But if the contacts weld or the relay is stuck, which control the high amperage side, shutting that off won't stop it from running.
Carolena is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2016, 06:15 PM   #52
Master and Commander
 
markpierce's Avatar
 
City: Vallejo CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Carquinez Coot
Vessel Model: 2011 Seahorse Marine Coot hull #6
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 10,138
My 24-volt thruster has its own circuit switch from the main panel, while control uses a left-right toggle. Central position is no thrust. And there's a button immediately beside the toggle to turn power off/on. After twenty minutes of non-use, the system shuts down by itself. Simple enough.
__________________
Kar-KEEN-ez Koot
markpierce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2016, 06:43 PM   #53
Guru
 
cardude01's Avatar
 
City: Victoria TX
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Bijou
Vessel Model: 2008 Island Packet steadysailer
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,071
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolena View Post
Correct, plus the last thing you want to do in a situation where you would be using the thruster is to shut down the engine - then you loose all control over the vessel. At least we were able to resort to lots of back and fill to turn the boat and avoid hitting anything. That is why I would not want it tied into any other main breakers, either, such as engine or house bank switches.

Cardude - my guess is that the engine switch may shut off power to the thruster control (button or joystick), which is low amperage. But if the contacts weld or the relay is stuck, which control the high amperage side, shutting that off won't stop it from running.

Ahh. Yeah. Just power to the joystick. That makes sense. Thanks.
cardude01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2016, 06:52 PM   #54
Guru
 
dhays's Avatar
 
City: Gig Harbor
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Kinship
Vessel Model: North Pacific 43
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 5,035
Quote:
Originally Posted by markpierce View Post
My 24-volt thruster has its own circuit switch from the main panel, while control uses a left-right toggle. Central position is no thrust. And there's a button immediately beside the toggle to turn power off/on. After twenty minutes of non-use, the system shuts down by itself. Simple enough.
Mine is setup that way too Mark, but I doubt that the switch on your panel actually is a switch in the cable connecting your battery to your thruster. It is just a switch to some type of remote switch in the cable. If that remote switch fails, where can you cut power to the thruster if needed?
__________________
Regards,

Dave
SPOT page
dhays is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2016, 07:11 PM   #55
TF Site Team
 
FlyWright's Avatar
 
City: California Delta and SF Bay
Country: Sacramento, CA, USA (boat in Vallejo)
Vessel Name: FlyWright
Vessel Model: Marshall Californian 34 LRC
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 10,033
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolena View Post
Shutting off the main could blow the diodes in the alternator, but if it is still connected to the engine start (assuming that is a seperate bank), you should be OK. As for this working in our senerio, it didn't. Our thruster runs off the house bank, but it has a seperate breaker/shut off from the main house disconnect. Once we were back in the slip, with the engine off, I turned off both the engine and house breakers then turned on the main thruster breaker, which caused the thruster to keep running. It is a direct wire from the house bank to the thruster breaker/main switch.
So many boats are wired like this where the alternator output (charge) is switched with the same switch that controls the loads. Maybe that's required with today's electronic-controlled engines, but on my ol' Perkins 4.236's, it ain't needed, so I rewired my boat. I split the charge from the loads. My charges go direct from the alternators to the start (port 55A) and house (stbd Balmar 120A) alternators. I can turn the alternators on and off with my keyed engine start switches. My loads run through my Perko switches with the exception of my windlass. It stays powered from the start battery through its own helm mounted breaker. This way, if the fit hits the shan with a major short or significant electrical malfunction, I can move from my helm to the switches in 2-3 steps to remove all electrical loads, still operate both engines so the boat has full control (with loss of instrumentation, but who cares?) and if all else fails, still deploy my battle-tested anchor. (Probably good fodder for a new thread...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolena View Post
Yep, to put it mildly. Luckily it is only a few steps from the pilot house to the berth and the switch is readily accessible.
You handled that like a real pro. You know your boat and where you had to go to rectify the situation. You did it right the first time...which is often the only time it counts. Well done.
__________________
Al

Custom Google Trawler Forum Search
FlyWright is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2016, 07:30 PM   #56
Master and Commander
 
markpierce's Avatar
 
City: Vallejo CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Carquinez Coot
Vessel Model: 2011 Seahorse Marine Coot hull #6
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 10,138
Quote:
Originally Posted by dhays View Post
Mine is setup that way too Mark, but I doubt that the switch on your panel actually is a switch in the cable connecting your battery to your thruster. It is just a switch to some type of remote switch in the cable. If that remote switch fails, where can you cut power to the thruster if needed?

Why not? Every other switch cuts off its circuit (lights, horns, refrigerator, radar, and so on).
__________________
Kar-KEEN-ez Koot
markpierce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2016, 07:54 PM   #57
TF Site Team
 
FlyWright's Avatar
 
City: California Delta and SF Bay
Country: Sacramento, CA, USA (boat in Vallejo)
Vessel Name: FlyWright
Vessel Model: Marshall Californian 34 LRC
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 10,033
Quote:
Originally Posted by markpierce View Post
Why not? Every other switch cuts off its circuit (lights, horns, refrigerator, radar, and so on).
High draw items like starters, bow thrusters and windlasses have solenoids to switch the power on and off with a lower current wire. Switches to handle the larger loads would be larger and more expensive than needed. It's important to know which of your loads are direct wired and which require the operation of a solenoid or remote switch.

BTW, my horn has a solenoid too...but it controls the air, not electrons.
__________________
Al

Custom Google Trawler Forum Search
FlyWright is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2016, 10:02 PM   #58
Guru
 
dhays's Avatar
 
City: Gig Harbor
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Kinship
Vessel Model: North Pacific 43
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 5,035
Yeah, what FlyWright said
__________________
Regards,

Dave
SPOT page
dhays is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2016, 04:59 AM   #59
TF Site Team
 
Bay Pelican's Avatar
 
City: Chicago, IL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Bay Pelican
Vessel Model: Krogen 42
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,743
To stop a run away bow thruster you need to be able to disconnect the supply cable from the battery. It is usually the solenoid that sticks so disconnecting power to the solenoid will not solve the problem.

On Bay Pelican the supply cable is a 2/0 cable. An inexpensive on/off manual battery switch in line will do the job. We also use this switch to disconnect the bow thruster whenever the boat is being stored.
__________________
Marty
Bay Pelican is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2016, 06:34 AM   #60
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 381
I have never been a fan of solenoids, as they seem to fail at a much faster rate than magnetic starters , i.e. sticking, or the coils burn. I think it might be because the coils are sealed , but , I'm not an engineer. When I worked commercially in the marine field, solenoids had to be replaced because of fail rates probably twice as much. Unfortunately, in the rec. marine industry, the controls used, regardless of the type,are nowhere built to quality that industrial ones are. Guess we all just need to continue to keep carrying a long list of spares.
__________________

tinped is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:47 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012