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Old 11-29-2011, 02:27 PM   #21
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RE: On Board Refrigeration

You're right on Ron. A compromise for those who don't want to plumb in a seawater HE, is a water-cooling through hull - which could be the galley sink outlet.

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Old 11-29-2011, 07:15 PM   #22
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RE: On Board Refrigeration

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rwidman wrote:
I've seen refrigeration systems that use seawater and a heat exchanger much like the typical boat air conditioning systems. I've seen them in catalogs, not actually installed in boats. It seems that would be more efficient than just dumping hot air into the cabin (or more typically, behind the cabinets).
*That's the way mine is. It can run with the seawater pump on (normal) cooling the coils and a fan also blows through there, removing heat into the bilge. You an actually run it on the hard by switching the RW pump off and just letting the fan blow through the coils like a window A/C. Have never used it that way but it's possible.
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Old 11-30-2011, 04:43 AM   #23
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RE: On Board Refrigeration

Have never used it that way but it's possible.

This is a huge PLUS if you spend time in a boat yard on the hard.

With only water cooled fridges , you have NO fridge.
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Old 11-30-2011, 05:48 AM   #24
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RE: On Board Refrigeration

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Keith wrote:rwidman wrote:
I've seen refrigeration systems that use seawater and a heat exchanger much like the typical boat air conditioning systems. I've seen them in catalogs, not actually installed in boats. It seems that would be more efficient than just dumping hot air into the cabin (or more typically, behind the cabinets).
*That's the way mine is. It can run with the seawater pump on (normal) cooling the coils and a fan also blows through there, removing heat into the bilge. You an actually run it on the hard by switching the RW pump off and just letting the fan blow through the coils like a window A/C. Have never used it that way but it's possible.



Now that makes me wonder if you could take some soft copper tubing and bend it into a design that would match the coils on the refrigerator, strap it to the coils (without blocking the air flow), and pump seawater through it for more efficient cooling.*

*
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Old 05-18-2012, 07:57 PM   #25
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Quote:
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Have never used it that way but it's possible.

This is a huge PLUS if you spend time in a boat yard on the hard.

With only water cooled fridges , you have NO fridge.
You can always install the thru-hull in the water tank, that way you always have water available for cooling - even when on the hard. This would require a return water hose to the same water tank to circulate the water (for systems with water pumps).
Then you could install a filter in this line, this would then work as a water polishing system...
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Old 05-18-2012, 08:31 PM   #26
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I'm Amazed

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Lived with all them ,and worked for a while for Adler Barbour, and today Propane is my solution
I'm amazed that someone didn't pick up on this. My god man don't you realize how dangerous this is. What a RV refrigerator with a burning flame, are you nuts?
This frowned upon by most in the industry but Done right this is probably on of the most efficient systems you can use. One of my friends owns a Blue Water 55 and he has made the conversion to what is essentially a RV refrigerator. His insurance company almost dropped him but after examining his system gave him the green light. He has a remote shut off at the tank a continuous line from the tank to the appliance a sniffer and it's vented out the side of the cabin. Dean swears by this system but has had to put up some pretty heated discussions, one of them with Nigle Calder. He's had the refer up and running for several years , No energy draw and silent. What silenced the insurance company was the realization that the flame burned continuously like a pilot light and had a thermal shut off built in, The flame is hardly larger than a candle flame.
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Old 05-18-2012, 08:31 PM   #27
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I think I'm going with an ice machine and two cold plates. I've got 4x4x2 ice boxes in the aft and if I spend my money on an ice machine that is plumbed into these boxes I could fill them up and use the cold plates to keep the ice cold and have enough for a long time. I think. All speculation now though.
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Old 05-18-2012, 08:59 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Singleprop View Post
You can always install the thru-hull in the water tank, that way you always have water available for cooling - even when on the hard. This would require a return water hose to the same water tank to circulate the water (for systems with water pumps).
Then you could install a filter in this line, this would then work as a water polishing system...
Not a bad idea but it didn't work for us. On our last boat, we had a cold plate system, with two plates in the freezer and one in the refrigerator. The system was water cooled only. The first time we were on the hard, we plumbed a closed loop system into one of the 75 gallon water tanks. Within 48 hours the we had an algae bloom in the tank - sh.t!!! The water temp was in the high 90's and the system was struggling. OK, no problem, we'll clean it up and add ice. The amount of heat that a refrigerator/freezer compressor needs to get rid of to operate efficiently requires a greater mass than any water tank we have and we don't own an ice company.
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Old 05-18-2012, 09:07 PM   #29
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good point, there's nothing like personal experiences.
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Old 05-18-2012, 09:12 PM   #30
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The Eagle had a raw water cold plate freezer but I disconected it. The stern was remodeled with a 120 volt refridge and freezer. They will be replaced with 3 way units, AC/Dc/propane. The stern has scuppers on both sides and the propane tanks are under the stern sink already with alarms and shut off. However I will have approved by insurance before installed.
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Old 05-19-2012, 06:54 AM   #31
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It seems that would be more efficient than just dumping hot air into the cabin (or more typically, behind the cabinets).

More efficient in this case does not mean lower run time , it just keeps perhaps unwanted heat out of the locker where the compressor package is.

Refrigerant needs to be cooled only so much after being pumped into a liquid , air or water does it.

Downside to water cooled is the time spend on the hard ,in a boat yard, sans refrigeration.

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Old 05-19-2012, 01:23 PM   #32
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Since I posted this blog entry I've added a remote bulb line thermostat and done some experimenting.
One More Time Around: Recreational Refrigeration
With the addition of the line thermostat I can make this little chest freezer a refrigerator, freezer or anything inbetween by simply setting a new temp on the add on thermostat.

I put a 5 gallon jug of water in the freezer and froze it into a solid brick. The brick will keep my beer cold for a week without turning on the power. This will allow me to eliminate buying ice for a cooler on shorter outings.

For longer times away from the dock, I'll determine how much generator runtime is necessary to 'recharge' the chest and what temp setting will be best - we regularly run the generator for a/c, coffee, microwave etc. Then I'll see if it's feasible to use the inverter to maintain the chest temp and use it's 130amp charger to bring back the inverter bank when i run the generator.

So many toys to experiment with...
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Old 05-20-2012, 01:50 AM   #33
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I originally had decided on either a water cooled or a keel cooled freezer due to the apparent better efficiency, but this thread made me re-investigate my decision.
The result was a U-turn...

I will now go with a simple air cooled Nova Kool LT201F1, which has twin evaporator plates. It also has a 12' line between the evaporator and the compressor so it is possible to place the compressor in a convenient location away from cabins, bunk or heat sources.

The reason for the U-turn are the many references to leaks or other problems with the water cooled systems.
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Old 05-20-2012, 07:15 AM   #34
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The brick will keep my beer cold for a week without turning on the power.

That must be an amazing box insulation..

At Adler Barbour the answer to electric (sail boat) refrigeration was a simple test.

Get a big hunk of ice , stick it in the box , and after a day or two , pull the ice and use a good scale and weigh it.

Plop it back in and wait 24 or 48 hours and then weigh it.

Loosing 2-3 lbs per day , electric will work, 5 lbs was the cut off to either re insulate the box , or go for a system with more holding capacity.

A battery can only hold so much energy (of reasonable size) so a eutetic (cold plate) system would be an easier choice to live with.

I chose 6 inches of freon blown urathine in sheets.Far better than pour in place.

With a 4000BTU plate ,28deg and 5500 Btu 0deg cold plate we get 4 days of service.

Our cruising rule is move at least every 3 days , with 2 hours of engine time for a complete cool down.

Biggest problem is the 28deg plate while cooling lowers the box temp enough to freeze vegetables. .An Igloo takes care of the delicate stuff.

In the Bahamas my bride joined in the middle of a bitch session where folks with stock production boat crap ice boxes and a couple of tiny batts were complaining about A-B refrigeration..

When she joined in and described how she had to pull the frozen milk out when lighting the Primus stove for AM coffee, she didn't get much sympathy!
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Old 05-23-2012, 12:19 PM   #35
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~~~That must be an amazing box insulation~~~

The freezer is a top opening chest, so that helps.
Empty, the freezer will get to -40*. With the water in it for the brick it doesn't get quite that cold.



So now I've got it hooked up to a car battery via my Freedom 30 with the line thermostat, temp sensors in 3 places and a resettsble run timer.





I had the Freedom 30 already so I've got under $200 in this project so far. What does one of those cold plate jobbies run?
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Old 05-23-2012, 06:08 PM   #36
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Eutetic solutions can be made at home using 50% salt and 50% water takes a while to freeze.

I haul a milk jug full to the boat in a cooler and just pop it into the fridge when I get aboard.
Chill's things off real quick. The fridge doesn't have to work so hard on the initial.

Eutetic solution. The stuff is great. Talk about a heat sink.
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Old 05-24-2012, 01:29 AM   #37
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Ahah, another variable to add to the experiment. I had tunnel vision because the basic plan was to use gallon jugs with tap water and drink it as it melted. With a permanent brick, I'm not limited to potable water.

The initial challenge is, How cold can I make the ice, or brine to start, without freezing my beer if the brew is added to the freezer/refrigerator after the power is off?

My wife has MS. She has a 'Cool Vest' that has rechargable packets that freeze at 40. They are inserted in the vest to keep her cool on hot days when we're outside. They'll 'freeze' in about 20 minutes in a cooler. I've often wondered what else is 'out there' with similar properties for different temperatures that might be of recreational use.

We don't use the vest anymore because of the air conditioner and generator on the boat. And I put a window unit in the van rear window with a Honda 2000i on the back bumper so we can overnight even in the heat at Walmarts and rest areas while on the road.


I get more use out of it that she does...
One More Time Around: Family Road Trip to Ohio & Illinois from SC
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Old 05-24-2012, 06:07 AM   #38
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Eutetic solutions can be made at home using 50% salt and 50% water takes a while to freeze.

Actually one can pick the temp the solution melts at , which is what keeps the boc at a stable temp.
The more salt the lower the temp, BUT the less capacity as salt takes up room too.

What makes a cold plate operate is the change of state , from a solid to a liquid.

Simply going to -100F below adds little time to the boxes holding time , its all in the melting.

The bad news is more eutetic capacity takes more more space out of the box .

Drinking the eutetic fluid , a gal of water is one cure , but Ice holds a box above 32F , fine for non frozen fresh food only.

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Old 05-24-2012, 10:00 AM   #39
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Big Thanks FF. You've given me a great head start.
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Old 07-01-2012, 11:51 AM   #40
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A key point not noted above is that Danfoss "12v" compressors, while very good and efficient, are highly sensitive to voltage drop. One advantage of the 110(240)v/12v dual power systems is if the vessel has an inverter, the fridge will be running on the 110v circuit....and the internal conversion to "12v" actually puts out more like 13.2v and so the fridge operates well. But if the 110v side of the 110/12 auto-switch fails (which they commonly do) OR if the fridge is 12v only, then the fridge is highly dependent on the quality of the 12v supply. Running the 12v fridge power to the fridge via a circuit breaker on the main breaker panel often ends up with long cable runs and voltage drops. The fridge will run but it won't get as cold as it should and cycle times will be longer and amp consumption higher. Best practice is to run a dedicated cable from the House battery (or nearby bus) directly to the fridge (with an in-line fuse) to avoid volt drop
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