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Old 07-31-2009, 12:17 PM   #21
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RE: anchor chain/gypsy size

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2bucks wrote:

On my boat, the center of the final resting place for my anchor chain is over 3 feet aft of where the chain goes thru the deck.
This implies that you have a fairly shallow angle down from the windlass hawse to the top of*anchor locker itself.* Is the rode in a tube when it makes this passage?* And how much of a drop is there from the rode's entrance into the top of the locker to the top of the pile when the rode's all in there?* Do you think it's a long enough drop that the weight of the vertical line or chain in the locker*will be sufficient to pull the rode through from the windlass hawse and down the angled passageway?

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Old 07-31-2009, 03:23 PM   #22
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RE: anchor chain/gypsy size

My all chain rode travels off the windlass straight down 18 inches to the deck, then down inside a plastic pipe and exits the pipe about 5 feet lower than it enters. The first of the chain has more than 8 feet of vertical drop along with 3 feet of horizontal from the windlass to the chain locker floor. When all the chain is in the locker it stands 15" tall or so at the highest point. A piece of rope would never drag itself down that pathway.

I had 15 years experience prior to this boat with my Chris Craft and it had only a 30" drop or so thru the hawse directly into the locker. With a combination rode (30' chain) the rope rode had to be hand fed 2 - 3 feet at a time. It would lay ok by itself inside the locker, but would not fall on it's own accord into the locker.

Ken
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Old 07-31-2009, 04:06 PM   #23
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RE: anchor chain/gypsy size

Interesting configuration, that they'd run the rode so far aft to store it. I had gotten the impression from an earlier post that you use a combination rode and so were interested in a windlass that would haul one in via remote control. I misunderstood.
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Old 07-31-2009, 06:29 PM   #24
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RE: anchor chain/gypsy size

Ken,
I really liked your post that featured the Muir winlass. Very well said. I have no experience w the gypsy that handles both chain and rope. It would seem the rope would take a terrible beating but it must be negligible as the system must be widely used by now. The hydraulic drum windlass the fishermen use dosn'nt care about shackels, thimbles or whatever* ... it just reels up whatever youv'e got. A fisherman down in Klawock has one for sale and I should probably just buy it but being a P type personality I like to keep my options open. Of course when he sells it to someone else my options dwindle. The bruce looks like it would set and hold better w a shorter shank but it's hard to imagine that it wasn't tried but I've heard of stranger things. I used a small Bruce on my previous boat and it worked fine except it needed to be draged a bit to set more than once. Ive read it's the best setting anchor there is and most of the fishermen here in SE Alaska that don't use the forfjord use the Bruce. In addition most use the drum winch and a combination rode. On at least half you can see the white nylon under the chain. Anyway I'd like to get a cheap and fairly small bruce to experiment with. Thanks for the excellent post.

Eric Henning
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Old 07-31-2009, 07:06 PM   #25
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RE: anchor chain/gypsy size

Eric---

Don't undersize your Bruce too much. The recommended size for a 36' boat is 33#. And the Bruce sizing chart was based on average conditions, not strong winds. While we would not have a Bruce on the boat anymore, I would consider the minimum size for a 36' boat to be 44#.

The Bruce does set fast which is why we got it in the first place but its low holding power later proved to be a problem. Fast setting and resetting don't mean much if the anchor can't be trusted to stay set. And this was with a 7:1 scope of all-chain.

A lot of boats use Bruce anchors with great success, and I realize that under the right--- or wrong--- conditions, any anchor short of a 4,000 pound concrete block can drag. But based on our experience and the experience of a few other people we know, the Bruce is more inclined to drag if the conditions are not absolutely ideal.

The Bruce is much better for the range of bottoms around here than something like a Danforth, but these days there are much better anchors on the market than the "big three" traditional configurations of Danforth, CQR, and Bruce. And while the Bruce may have once been the best-setting anchor configuration, it's not anymore.
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Old 07-31-2009, 07:33 PM   #26
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RE: anchor chain/gypsy size

"I had gotten the impression from an earlier post that you use a combination rode and so were interested in a windlass that would haul one in via remote control."

Marin, the original poster that started the thread, ( I appologize I forgot the name) intends to run his windlass from the flybridge, anchoring and retrieving remotely. And that is exactly what Muir leads you to believe can be done. I'm skeptical of getting the rope to fall into the locker, but I think our original poster has promised to tell us how it works when he gets his setup complete and working.

Ken
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Old 07-31-2009, 08:28 PM   #27
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RE: anchor chain/gypsy size

We have a remote switch at the upper and lower helm and foot switch at the bow. We have no problem raising the anchor from either helm until the anchor gets to the bow roller. If the anchor comes up right it will come up on the roller with no problem. But sometimes it comes up upside down and gets sideways in the roller and needs to be turned by hand to get it oriented right. A lot will depend on the roller set up and type of anchor. No issue at all with the rode and chain falling into the locker. Chuck
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Old 07-31-2009, 10:44 PM   #28
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RE: anchor chain/gypsy size

Marin,
It reached 90 here in Thorne Bay this week but I'm glad We're not down south now. Yes** ..* a 33# is right for our Willard 30. I want the small one just to experiment with. I want to cut 6 - 8" off the shank to see if it will still set well. I'd experiment w a Spade or a Rocna but it would cost too much. What I see in the Bruce is dependability, consistency and economy. I wonder what size of chain I would need to match the working strength of 1/2" nylon. The cost of ground tackle up here should be low due to all the logging debris on the bottom. I know people here that know where there is logging equipment on the bottom such as yarders or skidders** ..* about the size of a very large truck.

Eric Henning
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Old 07-31-2009, 11:42 PM   #29
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RE: anchor chain/gypsy size

Well, I'll grant you the consistency and economy but not the dependability, at least not in our experience. Debris on the bottom is why we generally use a buoyed trip line.
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Old 08-01-2009, 12:16 AM   #30
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RE: anchor chain/gypsy size

It must be years ago by now that Practical Sailor did an anchor test resulting in the conclusion that a Bruce would set first and release first.* Over the years since that I have been paying attention, more stories from firends have confirmed that conclusion.
As for the rode falling properly, I have a similar problem with mine.* It piles up if allowed, and then the first time you hit something rough the pile falls over and traps the chain so you can't lower your anchor without going below and pulling the pile apart in order to free up the trapped chain.* I tried pulling all of the 200 feet of 3/4 nylon from under the chain, to see if a 300 ft all chain rode would work better.* Marginally better, as now the chain is in the narrows of the funnel shaped locker instead of standing on the rope and being over a foot higher up.*
What I have to do now is to use the windlass handle, reach down the hole and push the incoming chain alternately to one side or the other so as to prevent it piling up.* This requires me to be down on the foredeck in all but he shallowest anchorages, operating the windlass with my thumb on the foot switch and banging away at the chain as it comes in with the other hand.* Not elegant, but it works. The geometry is a straight fall through a 2" ABS pipe of about 12 in to the middle of a funnel shaped locker.
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Old 08-01-2009, 09:56 AM   #31
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RE: anchor chain/gypsy size

Eric:

Our boats are of similar size and weight and I had a 33 lb. Bruce as my main anchor. Although it was quick to set, it also was quick to release. I stumbled on a killer deal on a polished SS knock off of the Bruce but this one is 44 lbs. Not only does it hold better, but it looks so nice on my bow! <grin>
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Old 08-01-2009, 11:28 PM   #32
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RE: anchor chain/gypsy size

Hi Walt,
Indeed it does look nice and even if it were a piece of scrap metal at 44# it should hold hold my boat well. I have a small forjord. I may practice w it as I think it's performance will be very similar. I intend to label my line so I can see how easily the anchors pull out at 3-1 and then 2 to 1 scope. I'll need to find a good concistent bottom. The 44 is just another 10lbs* ..* what the fluck. If I got the drum winch @ the 44 w 15' of 3/8 chain and the 350' of 5/8 Brait I already have** ..* could be a very good system. Also the Bruce would work well w the anchor retrieval ring (oval) that I saw on a web site. Murray Pacific (Ketchikan's Fisheries Supply) even stocks a Bruce kno-off. Some Bruce knock-offs are supposed to not work as well as the original. Any truth to this and if so which are the bad claws.
Last week I became the "Bad Eye". I fell w out arms as landing gear on a rock in my back yard* .. SMACK* .. really hard on my right eyebrow. I'm still quite disfunctional w many other cuts and bruises plus a fractured wrist. I am glad your'e still speaking to me Walt.

Eric Henning
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Old 08-02-2009, 04:35 AM   #33
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RE: anchor chain/gypsy size

"Some Bruce knock-offs are supposed to not work as well as the original. Any truth to this and if so which are the bad claws. "


I believe ALL the knock offs are a poor choice for a cruising boat , that may end up in indifferent anchorages.

Yes REAL CQR ,and Danforths cost $$$ , but sleeping at night is worth some $$$.

Perhaps IF I had a superb anchor retrival setup , I might contemplate a 125lb Chinese CQR , which costs about 1/2 a real 60lb CQR, but mostly for anchoring in such a foul area that I might loose it.

So far a trip line has always done the job.

In principal the Bruce and Danforth are the same , just a different shape .

There is a difference with a fly weight , the Danforth may plane , the Bruce wont.

Anchoring in FL during most summer months means THUNDERSTORMS , so a breeze far beyond a "named storm - 35K" can happen 3X a day for weeks . Thunderstorms frequently run 50-70K and sometimes have a wind reversal at the end.

The simple solution is full sized REAL anchor gear (not Chinese knock offs) , and the techniques , stern anchor ,to handle the conditions.
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Old 08-02-2009, 07:42 AM   #34
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anchor chain/gypsy size

Eric:

As you well know, there are numerous ways to mark the rode on your boat. Since I have all chain (238 ft.) I use red, white & blue wire ties. (plastic) I have red at 50 ft, white at 100 ft and blue at 150 ft. Beyond 150 is red, white and blue at 200 feet. using the colors of our flag is easy to remember. Also, 238 ft is a lot of chain. (weight) I probably don't even need an anchor. <grin> Guys that use all chain rode and talk about the great holding power of their various anchors, should give a little credit to the 100+ lbs of chain that rest on the bottom. On my fishing trips to your part of the world, the guides use a set up such as you describe (chain, line and drum) almost exclusively on the 32' aluminum boats. In some cases, they anchor in 300 ft. of water when fishing Halibut.

It's interesting to me to see the various anchoring techniques, as they vary so much by by local. The guys in the Baja approach it quite differently. Different strokes for different folks?

Sorry to hear about your "fall." It happened to me last April and resulted in broken ribs. Man, it takes a long time to heal these days. (8 weeks for me!)

Walt

-- Edited by SeaHorse II on Sunday 2nd of August 2009 07:50:20 AM

-- Edited by SeaHorse II on Sunday 2nd of August 2009 08:03:20 AM
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Old 08-02-2009, 07:16 PM   #35
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anchor chain/gypsy size

I have heard the same sort of thing that Fred mentioned---- the only thing that performs like a Bruce (assuming you feel a Bruce has performance) is a Bruce. But..... I have never heard or read why a genuine Bruce has better characteristics than a knock-off Bruce. The only person who ever told me anything concrete was Bob Hale (the publisher of the Waggoner Guide) and who used to be the Bruce distributor/representative for this area years ago. He said that the knock-offs do not have the same geometry of the genuine Bruce even though they appear to be the same. Things like fluke curvature, the angle of the edges of the flukes, and so on, are just enough different that they don't give the knock-offs the same kind of setting and re-setting characteristics of the genuine article. This is what Bob told me---- I have not done any comparisons myself of a genuine Bruce and any of the knock-offs.

As to marking our rode, we initially used color combinations of red, white and blue to mark the chain, following someone's recommended pattern. But we could never remember what "three blues" meant or a "red and blue." So we scrapped the whole idea and on someone else's recommendation simply tied a wire tie to a link every ten feet. We did not trim the wire ties, and we put them all on the same side of the chain so that as it's running in or out the wire ties don't come in contact with the wildcat. Granted, the long tail of a tie could get snagged down in the chain locker and break off, although we haven't had that happen yet, so we keep a ready supply of new ties to replace any that lose their tails. We use white ties so they will show up better.

So when we deploy the anchor, whichever of us is operating the windlass (usually me) we simply count out the wire ties as they run out to the end the pulpit. I don't even have to see the ties if I'm looking at something else--- I can put my fingers on the chain (after the wildcat ) and count them as I feel them. If we want to put out a hundred and ten feet of rode, it's just a matter of counting out eleven ties.

When the anchor is set we just stick a piece of blue painter's tape on the cable raceway between the lower and upper helm stations and write how many ties are out.

-- Edited by Marin on Sunday 2nd of August 2009 07:20:07 PM
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Old 08-02-2009, 10:32 PM   #36
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RE: anchor chain/gypsy size

Red, white and blue is easy to remember. Red is 25 feet, white is 50 feet, blue is 75 feet and red/white/blue, is at each 100. (assuming you can remember if you already have 100 feet out or not) Even during the off season the sequence is easy to remember and with 250 feet of chain (which I have) it's hard to get confused. 25 feet is an easy marker for me. I notice Marin marks at 10 foot increments which is too precise for me. My general system is to lay out a reasonable 3-5 to 1 scope, depending on the weather. If heavy weather is predicted I'll lay out more, but for the average night at anchor 3-1 works really well and I sleep as well as I do anywhere else. (there is a story about sleeping the way I do, and why)

Some folks state that their ties get broken off and lost. That's not my experience, although I tuck my tails into the chain to avoid the flag sticking out and hanging up as the chain goes thru my labyrinth hawse into the locker. It's easy to miss a marker if you cut them short, but tucked/weaved into the chain, they are easy to count.

Kenz
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Old 08-03-2009, 05:34 AM   #37
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anchor chain/gypsy size

"I have not done any comparisons myself of a genuine Bruce and any of the knock-offs."

The only difference is the Bruce are claimed to be forged,

the Chinese I have seen are simple cast iron from sand castings.

Your decision,



-- Edited by FF on Monday 3rd of August 2009 05:35:29 AM
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Old 08-03-2009, 10:18 AM   #38
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RE: anchor chain/gypsy size

There is a short discussion on the T&T list right now about using Rescue Tape as markers on chain rode. Apparently the proponents wrap thin lengths of the tape in various colors around one side of a chain link. The only negative anyone has mentioned to this is that the tape on the first twenty or thirty feet of chain gets worn off pretty quickly as the chain drags around on the bottom.
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Old 08-04-2009, 07:17 AM   #39
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RE: anchor chain/gypsy size

So, as promised, I replaced my old rusty chain on Saturday with 100' of 10mm (3/8") plus 100' of 16mm 3-strand nylon rope. Put my back out in the process, but all's well that ends well!

My Muir Atlantic windlass (vertical) handled the cross-over from chain to rope perfectly, and reeled in the rope equally well. Worked on Saturday, worked on Sunday, all good so far. As described by Ken, it's fitted with a fixed peeler utensil which peels the rope off as it comes around the gypsy. A spring-loaded finger guides the rope into the chain pipe.

The rope looked to be well squashed in the inner rope jaws of the gypsy but it appeared to go in and come out smoothly. Dunno how long rope can survive that kind of treatment, but I take comfort from the fact that 90% of my anchoring will be will 100' of chain only. The rope is there for the rare occasion when I need more scope.

I'm very happy!
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Old 08-04-2009, 09:37 AM   #40
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RE: anchor chain/gypsy size

Thanks for the update. Congratulations on devising a working system.

Good luck on your back,

Ken
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