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Old 02-08-2017, 10:45 PM   #21
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Greetings,
"Is there room on a boat for a model railroad?" Sure Mr. mp. Put it on your fly bridge...wait, what? Nice work. You do that yourself?
Yes I did. But regarding the fly bridge ...

I think not.



Maybe if I had Pres. Roosevelt's boat ...

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Old 02-08-2017, 10:47 PM   #22
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We living since 10 years on different trawler wonderful magic for us, with 2 kids...
We notre travelling we working and kids going at school.

one room for guest are really nice, 2 head good idea (especially if one are temporary out or order, stand up engine room I can't imagine to crawl on my boat (I'm doing all day long on other boat, so at the end of the day when I'm coming back home that not to do again...)
size depend to you, we did 48, 72 85 look like difficult to go down today, but we little crazy that lot of work a 85'...

Hugues
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Old 02-09-2017, 09:42 AM   #23
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You can quickly price yourselves right out of owning a boat by adding too many "requirements". Two heads? Many older homes have only one bathroom. I remember growing up with two parents and two brothers in a one bathroom home.


Multiple staterooms? How often do you plan on having overnight guests on board? More importantly, how much extra are you willing to spend for this capability? On many boats, something can be converted to extra sleeping room.


Stand up engine room? Now you're talking about a seriously big boat. To get 6' or more of headroom in the engine room, either the hull has to be deeper or the deck has to be higher.


You have to se a realistic budget for buying and maintaining a boat first and then look at the compromises you have to make to stay within that budget.
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Old 02-09-2017, 11:42 AM   #24
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3rd liveaboard....11 years total.
1st 30 foot sailboat in Ft Lauderdale.
2nd 37 foot sportfish, Chesapeake and NJ.
3rd 40 foot Albin, NJ summers, FL winters, passing 12,000 miles this year.

Liveaboards I have met are generally 2 kinds. Been doing it while young and still working and older, retired folk. The younger ones have a fairly high rate of continued liveaboard for decades. Often, less fortunate, sailor types, but love life. The older couples I would say do it for less than a decade on average, often medical or family pulls them back , or after a couple years cruising or a loop plus.....they realize it was more dream than lifestyle.

The more hobbies you have, the bigger the boat. My 40 is too small for me (and I am pretty minamalist) with a companion. Just the fishing and dive gear takes up a lot of storage as does the dingy pieces and parts. Add a couple bikes, grill, personal momentos, linens for 4 (guests), long term food and then the increase for guests......and you run out of storage quickly.

Definitely a second storage area...whether ever used as a stateroom or not, if you have guests bunk in the saloon. We call the vee berth the garage till guests come...then it is a scramble to find nooks to re-stow everything up there.

Second head...well can be a PIA if the only one breaks. Plus with guests...really cuts anxiety down. Many get by with one....till they have a boat with 2 and generally they become converts. Can be used for other things when guests aren't on board.

Stand up engine room to me is less important than a well laid out one and everything is accessible. In one year, good chance you are gonna have to get to many if not all the items. My engine is so low everything in the engine room is below knee level so I cleared all around everything so I wind up laying down for much of the maintenance anyhow. Or the whole deck comes up if need be and I can stand anyway.

The smallest boat that you can make work isn't necessarily dirt free live aboard advice. It has its place, but not for people like me.

There are 2 kinds of liveaboards. Those with a dirt addresses and those without. Make sure you talk to those that are closer to your desires for many things.

But most of all...after reading as much as you can....go spend a good bit of time with someone living on a boat similar to your circumstances and in your financial situation.

2 liveaboards can be lightyears apart in so many ways...but will have an appreciation for the other type. You will also learn more in a couple hours or days than you will from books, posts, training, etc.....
This is a very very VERY good summation of your questions. One of the things I would like to emphasize is STORAGE!!! I know others have said it but I will go further and say TYPE of storage. If you notice, PSNeeld, when confronted with visitors, he has to make his forward stateroom livable by cleaning out all of the stuff in there and finding "nooks" to store everything. Many boats will claim "tons of storage" but you will find out that all of that "storage" is nooks and cubby holes. Not really useable when one sock/underwear drawer turns into 4 cubby holes spread out all over the boat. My point here is to have big deep drawers and nice hanging lockers. Something not always found on mainstream mass produced boats because the marketing department was trying to maximize space. Hatteras always did a very good job of providing lots of big drawers even on their "smaller" aft cabin motoryachts. Present did an excellent job as well on the Present 42.

I lived on a Prairie 29 for 5 years...3 of those with girlfriend. But the prairie had 3 GIANT DEEP drawers and 2 normal sized drawers along with a hanging locker that was much bigger than most boats of that size....probably a 3-4 foot hanging rod. It makes life so much easier when you can store your stuff just like you do at home....in drawers and hanging up!

2 heads vs 1.....I used to think another head on a boat was a waste of space....until I owned a boat with 2 heads. All I can say is WOW!!! Is it a necessity...No it is not. But it almost is and if not necessary, it is a wonderful luxury. I am taking a big (bachelorette) party out on Saturday and as of yesterday, my forward head is acting up. I may get it fixed before then...I may not. But I have another that will suffice. So the show goes on. Also, as others have said, it is quite nice to be able to use the restroom without having to chase your partner out of the other one while she is getting ready. We will do "dress up" things from the boat and she needs her space!!!

As far as visitors and other staterooms, just beware of choosing a boat based on the 3% of the time you want to have visitors aboard. You will likely have less visitors than you think. Everyone says they will come visit, but actually doing it is a completely different thing. It requires significant time and money to visit you and many people cannot find that.

One final thought...my "fear" for you and people like you is the "dream vs reality". Right now you really don't know the reality of what you are getting into...hence your very good questions. ANd really the only way to figure it out is to GO DO IT. Most of us have spent significant time on boats and many of us have bought many different boats trying to hone down our choices for the "final trawler" as you say. Buying the "final trawler" as your first trawler is quite a task when many have owned numerous boats for numerous reasons and hoping to find the "final trawler". Just a warning....keep the dream and reality as close to each other as possible. The farther they are apart, the more likely for failure. Since you are attempting the final trawler as your first trawler, I would go bigger just in case. Kinda like boobies. I know a plastic surgeon. He has yet to have a girl come back and say "I wish I would have gone smaller". But half of his business(literally) are girls that are coming back because they want bigger ones. SO as some people have said on here and what you are trying to do is, buy your second trawler...first!!! Go beyond on all topics than what you think you need. More length. More staterooms. More heads. Big galley. Big storage. Nice engine room.
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Old 02-09-2017, 12:32 PM   #25
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Your purchase budget and annual maintenance budget may answer a lot of your questions on size and make.
For 2 staterooms, take a hard look at your bed. If it's not center beam, make sure you love it!!!
2 heads - especially if someone smells funny or is sick.
Engine room - have excellent lighting is a must to keep everything clean.
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Old 02-09-2017, 02:01 PM   #26
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I'm not as qualified to address living aboard as many of the posters above since we're only out around 4 months during the summer. One basic thing, though, comes to mind and that's long term compatibility in close quarters of you and your partner. Interpersonal stuff isn't easy in a big house and it's much harder on a boat where there's a distinct shortage of elbow room. Having empathy for the other person's wishes (."...Gee honey, could we have a down day today and not travel or fish") or (...."you know, the weather report is iffy and I'm just not up for getting up early and getting thrashed around today"). Physical space also works well, taking off in the dingy while the other person reads a book. These sorts of things pay big dividends in having peace and harmony aboard. On the other end of the scale, we know couples that can barely tolerate each other rather than enjoying each others company, which is a sure recipe for unhappiness living aboard.
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Old 02-09-2017, 03:26 PM   #27
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Something I have not seen mentioned is the accommodations out of doors. You will probably spend more time outside than inside, disregarding sleeping. Imagine where you will sit and entertain guests with snacks and an adult beverage. No one will want to be inside on a beautiful day or evening, when they can be outside enjoying the air.

Imagine your significant other preparing dinner or snacks to go along with the adult beverages - how far is the galley and fridge from where the action is? Where will your new friends sit? What about the guitar players?

Gordon
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Old 02-09-2017, 03:40 PM   #28
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Something I have not seen mentioned is the accommodations out of doors. You will probably spend more time outside than inside, disregarding sleeping. Imagine where you will sit and entertain guests with snacks and an adult beverage. No one will want to be inside on a beautiful day or evening, when they can be outside enjoying the air.

Imagine your significant other preparing dinner or snacks to go along with the adult beverages - how far is the galley and fridge from where the action is? Where will your new friends sit? What about the guitar players?

Gordon
For a liveaboard, I see a flybridge as a near necessity. It's your yard, your patio. You're aboard a boat to enjoy the water and the great outdoors. Great to grill on your rooftop patio. Great to watch the sun set. Great to sit under the stars at night. Also addresses the issue of separate living areas. Nice aft and even bow areas are good but a flybridge increases your area of enjoyment significantly.
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Old 02-09-2017, 03:46 PM   #29
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Not sure indoors/outdoors is a simple answer.

Some people bake in the sun, others avoid it like the plague.

My concept is living where the climate is comfy indoors or out, so the layout for me didn't maximize either, it maximized my hard requirements.

In a perfect world...in temperate climes you can always spend time outdoors, not NE essarily on the boat.

But certain personal activities you want the room onboard that is private from the outside world....it's all a balancing act.
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Old 02-10-2017, 11:45 AM   #30
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Another big question is cockpit or no cockpit.

To me, a cockpit is a great place to socialize at the marina, and a necessity if you're into fishing. We don't have one.

The flybridge is definitely our "patio." That's where we'd do our outdoor entertaining. Not as convenient to folks walking by on the dock, but we're not at the dock a lot.

If it's just us and a guest or two, and we really want to be outdoors, we can set some comfy folding chairs up on the trunk cabin overhead (sometimes called a sundeck, or as we call it, a moondeck.)

We can fish off our small aft deck, but we're not big-time fishermen so a big cockpit isn't a huge requirement for that reason.

Every boat is a compromise. I'd rather have more "indoor" space and forego the cockpit. A lot of people wouldn't. You decide what's right for you.
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Old 02-10-2017, 02:33 PM   #31
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Some of the last few posts are about space. I don't mean having a 20'x20' master stateroom or having enough space for storage, which is VERY important, but having different spaces for people to use on the boat.

My father had a 33 foot sailboat back in the day and we sometimes would have as many as five adults on the boat. That was kinda tight but we were lucky in that the weather was always good and we somehow found a space place to get out of each other's way. This worked for a week but for more than a week, or with bad weather, this would NOT have worked at all.

The boat designs we like, and want, have quite a few spaces. Engine room, pilot house, galley, saloon, forward cabin(s), master stateroom, cockpit and maybe a fly bridge. Some of the spaces can be quite small by modern house standards, or even boat standards, but they are still usable and allow people there own space.

One does not need space to only get away from others but the more spaces on the boat makes the boat feel bigger.

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Old 02-10-2017, 04:23 PM   #32
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Some of the last few posts are about space. I don't mean having a 20'x20' master stateroom or having enough space for storage, which is VERY important, but having different spaces for people to use on the boat.

My father had a 33 foot sailboat back in the day and we sometimes would have as many as five adults on the boat. That was kinda tight but we were lucky in that the weather was always good and we somehow found a space place to get out of each other's way. This worked for a week but for more than a week, or with bad weather, this would NOT have worked at all.

The boat designs we like, and want, have quite a few spaces. Engine room, pilot house, galley, saloon, forward cabin(s), master stateroom, cockpit and maybe a fly bridge. Some of the spaces can be quite small by modern house standards, or even boat standards, but they are still usable and allow people there own space.

One does not need space to only get away from others but the more spaces on the boat makes the boat feel bigger.

Later,
Dan
A space that brings a lot of debate is bow space. Some now use it for sun pads and some have a seating area. It comes in quite handy if you're docked stern in or stern to. It also serves as another sitting area and if there's more than one couple on board, one couple can sit there and relax as the sun sets. Even the sun pads are nice for lounging. This is a space that just isn't used on a lot of boats.
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Old 02-10-2017, 05:51 PM   #33
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Is there room on a boat for a model railroad?
Now you're talking. This is my other bad habit, and no they won't run on a boat. At least they won't stay on the tracks.

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Old 02-10-2017, 07:41 PM   #34
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Great questions, and although the answer to each is very much an individual preference that you will ultimately have to answer yourself, I think it's good to hear what trade-offs other have made, and why.

We are not live-aboards, where "I have no other home" is the definition of live-aboard. But we are on our boat for months at a time. 95% of the time it's just the two of us, and 5% with 1-3 guests. We also spend 80-90% of our cruising time at anchor, so want complete self sufficiency.

As to over-all size, we had a 47' Grand Banks for a number of years adn loved it for coastal cruising, but for months at a time we found it a bit too tight. The 60' boat we have now is a good compromise for us between space and the work involved in keeping it all clean and operational.

Two heads are mandatory for us. We just don't like to have people lining up, like the redundancy of two heads, and like having an ensuite head for us, which also means we don't want people traipsing through our stateroom to use it if it can be avoided. When we have guests, they can have their own head.

Same for staterooms. Two is a minimum. We want our guests to be comfortable, and we don't want them taking up the salon or other common space. It makes it more comfortable for everyone.

Another aspect of the heads is the shower setup. A separate shower is also mandatory for us. We don't want to deal with a wet head. Been there, done that, and prefer not o deal with it.

Another thing that's mandatory for us are full function washer and dryer. We had a Splendide combo on the Grand Banks and it certainly worked, but separate units, fully vented makes laundry so much more convenient.
I think the bottom line is that when we are on our boat for multiple months, we don't want to be camping. And we don't want guests to feel like they are camping. We want to feel like we are at home. It's a small home, but just as comfortable.

For me, and stand-up engine room is really not the important objective. Accessibility is what really matters. I'd much rather bend over and be able to get to everything, than be able to standup in the middle, but not have access to half the equipment. Our "standup engine room" probably have 1 sq foot where it is stand up, and the rest is bend-over. But that's fine because I can get to everything. I prefer not to be crawling, but bending over is fine. But at the end of the day, accessibility is the most important things to me.

as for size, that's a tough one. I think around 40'-45' the features that matter to us start to be available. From there it's over just about elbow room. I'm pretty big, so definitely like to have some elbow room. That put us in the 55'-60' range. But I've got a bit of Nordhavn 68 envy, mostly because of the extra space.
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Old 02-10-2017, 08:17 PM   #35
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Another aspect of the heads is the shower setup. A separate shower is also mandatory for us. We don't want to deal with a wet head. Been there, done that, and prefer not o deal with it.

Another thing that's mandatory for us are full function washer and dryer. We had a Splendide combo on the Grand Banks and it certainly worked, but separate units, fully vented makes laundry so much more convenient.
I think the bottom line is that when we are on our boat for multiple months, we don't want to be camping. And we don't want guests to feel like they are camping. We want to feel like we are at home. It's a small home, but just as comfortable.

.
I definitely see it as a second home and needing the basic conveniences of one. We second, third and take to infinity your comments on dry vs wet shower. I see most small boats today having separate stalls, but in past years some large boats didn't. To add to that it must be large enough to fit comfortably, to fit normal and above normal sized people.

I also agree strongly with your Splendide comments. If you must have a combo and no other choice on a boat, pull the Splendide out and replace with Miele. They have approximately double the capacity. Our last boat came with a Splendide combo and we immediately replaced it. Now, we did some movement of walls to fit regular equipment in. Stacked, even full size units don't take up that much more room.
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Old 02-10-2017, 09:19 PM   #36
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Questions would be:
-How long does the average couple actually spend in the live aboard and cruising lifestyle, 2 years, 6 years, 15 years, all of the above?

All of above, I have 35 years living, working and cruising and my family, 5 and we're not back at a house never, ever in our life...


-For couples who actually do this successfully for many years, is there a minimum and maximum size boat that you typically see them in? The minimalists, such as Captain John, advise “buying the absolute smallest boat that you can live with”. However, he does not boat with a spouse who also has to be happy with the accommodations, and seems to rarely have guests. On the other side, the “bigger is better crowd” advocate buying for comfort and accessibility. However, it seems that the extremists on that side often spend most of their time in marinas, actually cruise very little, may have more boat than 2 people enjoy handling, and may have difficulty finding slips when they do travel. So what size range of boat do you typically see successful liveaboard cruising couples in?

Something between 40 to 60 feet are perfect for mostly people who want to liveaboard and cruising. I'm not going below 40' for any reason

-One stateroom or two? Does a second full sized stateroom make it more likely that family and friends will come to visit for a week or weeks, or does the second stateroom wind up being just used as extra storage space?

Second stateroom is perfect for summer family vacation or ocasional crew or visit friends or.. endless possibilities

-One Head or Two? Does a second head provide a worthwhile more enjoyable experience with guests, act as a good emergency head, or is it really unnecessary?

Definitely 2 heads is a really good idea...

-Is a stand up engine room worth it, especially as we age, or is putting on a pair of knee pads, opening a hatch in the floor, and climbing down a short ladder not really that bad? For stand up thinking KK44, Defever 45 aft, Great Harbor 37, 47. For less height in the engine room thinking Helmsman 38E, 44, or Swift 34, 44.

YES! Unless you're have enough money to keep paying for your mechanic, better a huge engine room

Any other things that should be considered by someone who has not yet taken the plunge from those who have?

Be confortable.. not just with the boat, with the marina, your neighbors, the parking, winters on board.. there are thousand of little things you need to be confortable in order to spend a life at the water.. good luck!!

Thanks very much.

Your welcome!
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Old 02-10-2017, 11:07 PM   #37
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Kaz,
Your questions can be answered by hundreds of folks on the forum. I would recommend you look into the MTOA forum and AGLCA forum for more answers. For us, we attended a lot of boat shows, climbed on a lot of boats and one day looked at each other and said "Yes". We have lived aboard 9 yrs and when we will move back to land - who knows. For US, we wanted a boat we could live in - not camp. We ended up with two queen size berths, household appliances including an apartment size stacked washer dryer and three heads (we have had all three not working...long story). I could not recommend a boat for my best friends any more that I could pick carpet, wall paper or drapes for their house.
We made a list of Must Have, Likes, Dislikes and used that list when shopping for a boat. Some items changed over time, and one boat that I said I would never own, I changed my mind on after talking with owners and spending a week on one.
I wish the best of luck in your search.
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Old 02-11-2017, 12:55 AM   #38
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-How long does the average couple actually spend in the liveaboard and cruising lifestyle, 2 years, 6 years, 15 years, all of the above?

We are in year 5 of living and working aboard 24/7/365. No dirt address (I don't count the storage unit...). We have no idea how long we will go, but we do wonder if our daughter will leave this watery nest or a dirt one when she goes off to college. She just turned 2 when we moved aboard, and will be 7 in a couple months. We know many couples/families/singles who have been living aboard for 10, 15, 20 years or more. And we're talking happy liveabaords who continue to love the lifestyle. We know probably the same number who tried it and didn't last more than a few years. But of all those that tried and found it wasn't for them, I don't think any of them regret giving it a whirl.

-For couples who actually do this successfully for many years, is there a minimum and maximum size boat that you typically see them in? ...what size range of boat do you typically see successful liveaboard cruising couples in?

Seems to me the "average" liveaboard would be in the 40-50' range. Not too big to singlehand if necessary, yet still provide enough room for the aforementioned "spaces" each of you can retreat to if need be.

-One stateroom or two? Does a second full sized stateroom make it more likely that family and friends will come to visit for a week or weeks, or does the second stateroom wind up being just used as extra storage space?

If you have a second stateroom you will likely end up using it for either temporary or "can't-find-anywhere-else-to-put-this" storage. And should guests enter the equation, you will find yourself locating all sorts of temporary-temporary places to put stuff in order to accommodate a few more people. I'll also echo what others said in terms of storage, in that it will fill up rather quickly. Good storage is vital for the liveaboard.

-One Head or Two? Does a second head provide a worthwhile more enjoyable experience with guests, act as a good emergency head, or is it really unnecessary?

You've heard the old saying: "Two heads are better than one"!

-Is a stand up engine room worth it, especially as we age, or is putting on a pair of knee pads, opening a hatch in the floor, and climbing down a short ladder not really that bad? For stand up thinking KK44, Defever 45 aft, Great Harbor 37, 47. For less height in the engine room thinking Helmsman 38E, 44, or Swift 34, 44.
Any other things that should be considered by someone who has not yet taken the plunge from those who have? Thanks very much.
We have a full height stand up ER and I every time I step in there I am so thankful!
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Old 02-11-2017, 08:19 AM   #39
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For me, and stand-up engine room is really not the important objective. Accessibility is what really matters. I'd much rather bend over and be able to get to everything, than be able to standup in the middle, but not have access to half the equipment. Our "standup engine room" probably have 1 sq foot where it is stand up, and the rest is bend-over. But that's fine because I can get to everything. I prefer not to be crawling, but bending over is fine. But at the end of the day, accessibility is the most important things to me.

Very well-stated distinction. "Accessibility" -- to all portions of machinery and systems that need maintenance -- is the key. "Stand-up" may or may not provide that.

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Old 02-11-2017, 08:58 AM   #40
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Great questions, and although the answer to each is very much an individual preference that you will ultimately have to answer yourself, I think it's good to hear what trade-offs other have made, and why.

We are not live-aboards, where "I have no other home" is the definition of live-aboard. But we are on our boat for months at a time. 95% of the time it's just the two of us, and 5% with 1-3 guests. We also spend 80-90% of our cruising time at anchor, so want complete self sufficiency.

As to over-all size, we had a 47' Grand Banks for a number of years adn loved it for coastal cruising, but for months at a time we found it a bit too tight. The 60' boat we have now is a good compromise for us between space and the work involved in keeping it all clean and operational.

Two heads are mandatory for us. We just don't like to have people lining up, like the redundancy of two heads, and like having an ensuite head for us, which also means we don't want people traipsing through our stateroom to use it if it can be avoided. When we have guests, they can have their own head.

Same for staterooms. Two is a minimum. We want our guests to be comfortable, and we don't want them taking up the salon or other common space. It makes it more comfortable for everyone.

Another aspect of the heads is the shower setup. A separate shower is also mandatory for us. We don't want to deal with a wet head. Been there, done that, and prefer not o deal with it.

Another thing that's mandatory for us are full function washer and dryer. We had a Splendide combo on the Grand Banks and it certainly worked, but separate units, fully vented makes laundry so much more convenient.
I think the bottom line is that when we are on our boat for multiple months, we don't want to be camping. And we don't want guests to feel like they are camping. We want to feel like we are at home. It's a small home, but just as comfortable.

For me, and stand-up engine room is really not the important objective. Accessibility is what really matters. I'd much rather bend over and be able to get to everything, than be able to standup in the middle, but not have access to half the equipment. Our "standup engine room" probably have 1 sq foot where it is stand up, and the rest is bend-over. But that's fine because I can get to everything. I prefer not to be crawling, but bending over is fine. But at the end of the day, accessibility is the most important things to me.

as for size, that's a tough one. I think around 40'-45' the features that matter to us start to be available. From there it's over just about elbow room. I'm pretty big, so definitely like to have some elbow room. That put us in the 55'-60' range. But I've got a bit of Nordhavn 68 envy, mostly because of the extra space.
If those are the "requirements", you've just priced most folks out of living on a boat.

Just as in living on land, different folks have different requirements or expectations based on their available income and lifestyle. In my part of the country, there are people (families) living in $30K mobile homes and there are folks living in $30M mansions. I know of a guy who used to live on a 26' former sailboat anchored in the harbor who commuted to his job in a canoe. I doubt he had a shower and I suspect his head was a bucket that was dumped at night. No washer or dryer.

If someone wants to live on a boat, their financial reality will determine how many staterooms, how many heads, how much storage space, etc. It's not "one size fits all".
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