Newbie Questions-Fuel Consumption and Stabilizers

[GalaxyGirl]

Hello all,

I am in the process of preparing to live aboard with my family. I will be purchasing a Trawler somewhere in the 60-70' range. I have specifically been looking at a 65' steel boat that I found. I was wondering what fuel consumption is considered good on a Trawler that size? The broker says she gets 10 gph at 8 knots, that seems a bit high, or maybe not because of the length, not sure?

Also, this boat does not have stabilizers. I do plan to to do some world cruising at some point. Does every long range boat need stabilizers? Is this something that can be added? Anyone know what the ball park cost on adding them to a 65' would be? Is it a big job?

Thanks for your help. I have so much to learn.

 

[ben2go]

Welcome.Sorry I can't be of any help on a boat that size.Someone will be around to give an opinion stabilizers and fuel burn rates.There is some good info on stabilizers.Shouldn't be hard to find use those search terms with forum search bar.

 

[CPseudonym]

Welcome GalaxyGirl. Been following your thread over at CF. Your a pretty gutsy gal IMO.
Good luck in your quest, I think your grabbing a tiger by the tail but if anyone can pull it off I'm sure you'll find a way.

All boats are compromises. Find the one that checks off the most boxes on your wish list and pull the trigger. Cruising a 65' will most likely involve a captain for insurance purposes at first. You can add stabilizers to the boat and the sky is the limit depending upon system chosen. There's a lot of ways to skin that cat.

Here are a couple threads to get you started.

http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s3/stabilizers-us-6892.html

http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s6/options-active-fin-stabilizers-6441.html

 

[Gene]

Keep it under 65 foot or else you are considered a ship with more requirements to meet.

Keep it under 75 tons or else you limit the number of facilities which can haul you for maintenance and repairs.

Most affordable marinas are limited to 50 feet max.

Most mooring fields are limited to 40 ish feet.

6 foot draft or less is ideal for most cruising grounds.


-----

Gene :^)
Http://www.Strathbelle.com/

 

[FF]

Fuel burn is deterimened by weight and speed.

It takes 3 hp per ton (2240lbs) for fast cruising , about 2 hP per ton at modest speeds, basically the Sq Rt of the LWL.

on many boats about 15 Hp can be put into the water for each gallon per hour of fuel burn.

Why so large a boat? Are you going with a dozen folks.

Just under 65 ft a normal boat will operate at 7K , a great boat at 8K with modest fuel burn.

That's about 170-200 miles per day if the weather is mild, fast enough for most folks on a budget.

Good hunting , but if you are contemplating passagemaking , only one boat in 100 will be built for the job.

Read up , consult a NA .

FF

 

[Phil Fill]

Keep it under 65 foot or else you are considered a ship with more requirements to meet.

Keep it under 75 tons or else you limit the number of facilities which can haul you for maintenance and repairs.

Most affordable marinas are limited to 50 feet max.

Most mooring fields are limited to 40 ish feet.

6 foot draft or less is ideal for most cruising grounds.


-----

Gene :^)
Http://www.Strathbelle.com/

Gene, have not heard from you, and thinking of you time to time as discussions come up. Start a new discussion and bring us up to date. I stil think you are crazy in a nice way of course.

GalaxyGirl, my wife bought the Eagle a 58 ft, 40+ ton, full displacement, single engine long range coastle cruisier, which has made a great liveaboard and very stable. 2 miles per gallon at 8 knot is possible/reasonable, and many full displacements do not have stablization. The Eagle does not have stabilization and been up/down the pacific coast several times by previous owner.

Becareful of steel boats that have been converted from commercial to pleasure as the may be have rust and mold as tbe steel was not prepped and protected on inside. Steel tank and boat rust from the inside out.

It would really help is you told us about your self, location, plans, and the boat.

Anyway post you question

 

[GalaxyGirl]

Keep it under 65 foot or else you are considered a ship with more requirements to meet.

Gene :^)
Http://www.Strathbelle.com/

Hey Gene, thanks for the advice. Would you mind elaborating on this comment a bit. I tried to look it up, but couldn't find anything.

 

[GalaxyGirl]

Gene, have not heard from you, and thinking of you time to time as discussions come up. Start a new discussion and bring us up to date. I stil think you are crazy in a nice way of course.

GalaxyGirl, my wife bought the Eagle a 58 ft, 40+ ton, full displacement, single engine long range coastle cruisier, which has made a great liveaboard and very stable. 2 miles per gallon at 8 knot is possible/reasonable, and many full displacements do not have stablization. The Eagle does not have stabilization and been up/down the pacific coast several times by previous owner.

Becareful of steel boats that have been converted from commercial to pleasure as the may be have rust and mold as tbe steel was not prepped and protected on inside. Steel tank and boat rust from the inside out.

It would really help is you told us about your self, location, plans, and the boat.

Anyway post you question

Hey Phil,

Sorry about that.

I am planning to sell my house and buy a Trawler in a year and some change. I will purchase a Trawler to liveaboard and have been trying to figure out what kind/size? I have 5 kids and my mom will also join us. So, I need something big enough to comfortably fit 7. Four of my kids will be teens when this move happens. I live in New England now, but am considering a relocation to Florida. But, either way I will get the boat. I do not have experience operating a boat, but plan on taking some courses and hiring a captain for trips until I learn. We will live at a marina for about 4 or 5 years so my kids can get through High School, then when most of them are off to college I will take off and cruise. I should be comfortable/proficient by then. In the meantime we can take weekend and school vacation short trips. I am going to get a boat that is strong and seaworthy so that I can cruise the world one day.

Phil,
Do you think a good survey will could determine if a boat has internal rust, or is it just one of those things that there's no way to know???

Thanks for your input.

 

[Phil Fill]

So now tell us about the boat or the boat you think you need/want.

A survey should be able to give a good idea. You should be able to by crawling aroud the bilge/engine room, and what the boat was previuos used for.

Gee, that is a boat load, and age range. Keep in mind you will be a live aboard 100% of the time and cruising a small % of the time. It is easier to be a live a board in warmer climate, and the marine facilities and slip location is equal to the boat. Not many boats can sleep 7 in comfort and give individual room. On a boat all resouces/things are limited, heat,hot water, storage/closet, sanitation, refrgeration, even AC electricity.
You are looking at one heck of a boat.

Be sure to read the past live a board discussions as we have discussed before.

While looking a boats be sure to look at marines, talk to live aboards, and walk through the boat yards. since you are also looking for a stable boat, you also nned to know what they look like below the water line.

 

[Gene]

The actual rule (cut off) is 20 meters, so at 65 ft you are ok, but 66 foot and you are over.

I don't have all the links for you, but a quick google came up with these below.

If you look at this first link about requirements (and others you find on your own) you will notice the requirements stop at 20 meters.

http://boatsafe.com/nauticalknowhow/reqequip.htm

This next one is not an official link but it gives you an idea of what I am talking bout.

http://www.yachtsdelivered.com/over20m.htm

I have actually had a hard time finding a concise list of requirements for over 20 meters and recreational. If anyone can point me to a good source I would appreciate it.

-----

Gene :^)
Http://www.Strathbelle.com/

 

[sunchaser]

You need a boat big enough to comfortably fit 7 - 120 feet or so will work. A major issue you will encounter is holding tank size for that size of group and possibly even a huge grey water tank. Live aboard reality is indeed facing up to waste water management. As crummy as housing prices are in FL why not get a beach front house where you can park your 24' fishing boat?

 

[bluebyu]

As Gene pointed out, lots on the internet about this. I'm Sure Chapmans covers it well.

The rules come from our Uncle Sam (CFR's):

Electronic Code of Federal Regulations:

Hope this helps

Edit; my link just goes to one part. Maybe this will work. Search in parts 125 to 199
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex...5&c=ecfr&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title33/33tab_02.tpl

This is a neat guide about the rules in easy to read form, however it does not cover vessels over 65'. Those rules will be in the CFR's, somewhere.
http://www.uscgboating.org/regulations/federal_requirements_brochure.aspx
Near the bottom is the link to the guide.

 

[Gene]

FYI: many people own boats over 65 feet, I just wanted to make you aware of the extra effort required.

Also be aware of line 2 of my post, most boatyards only have 75 ton or less Travel-lifts. You can quickly limit the choice of repair facilities with weight. Most boatyards with larger capacity do not allow DIY work, so you pay their price or go elsewhere but elsewhere is limited.


-----

Gene :^)
Http://www.Strathbelle.com

 

[Phil Fill]

Went to the Seattle boat show yesterday, visited. and went on some 60+ ft with 7 in mind. At about 70+ had 4 staterooms, ski bridge, and crew quarters. We have used the pilot house as spare bed room. and even tbe back deck. I gree with Gene above 60 ft there is big jump ln availabilty and cost. It gets to a point you do not ask the cost. We have run into that many times.

Also a wide body, no side decks,mor common on 60+ ft boats offers more living area. The Eagle is a wide body and if we bought another body it would be a wide body. So there are boats that could comfortable accomodate 7 people, but you would still be relying on marine facilities.

 

[GalaxyGirl]

So now tell us about the boat or the boat you think you need/want.

A survey should be able to give a good idea. You should be able to by crawling aroud the bilge/engine room, and what the boat was previuos used for.

Gee, that is a boat load, and age range. Keep in mind you will be a live aboard 100% of the time and cruising a small % of the time. It is easier to be a live a board in warmer climate, and the marine facilities and slip location is equal to the boat. Not many boats can sleep 7 in comfort and give individual room. On a boat all resouces/things are limited, heat,hot water, storage/closet, sanitation, refrgeration, even AC electricity.
You are looking at one heck of a boat.

Be sure to read the past live a board discussions as we have discussed before.

While looking a boats be sure to look at marines, talk to live aboards, and walk through the boat yards. since you are also looking for a stable boat, you also nned to know what they look like below the water line.

I agree, I do have a boat load. That's why I've decided to just go ahead and get a big boy boat. I want to be sure that we don't feel cramped, especially since we will be full time live aboard.

You're so right, the marina is VERY important. For us, the top of the list includes pump out at the slip, cable hookup, and a pool. I have actually already located at a couple of marinas that I am interested in. I will probably be looking at 30 bucks a foot, but I'm ok with that. I want to be sure that my kids enjoy this new experience as much as I know I will so the pool is a must have for them.

 

[GalaxyGirl]

The actual rule (cut off) is 20 meters, so at 65 ft you are ok, but 66 foot and you are over.

I don't have all the links for you, but a quick google came up with these below.

If you look at this first link about requirements (and others you find on your own) you will notice the requirements stop at 20 meters.

Required Equipment for Recreational Boats - BoatSafe.com

This next one is not an official link but it gives you an idea of what I am talking bout.

Regs and Misc. for Yachts over 20 Meters in Length

I have actually had a hard time finding a concise list of requirements for over 20 meters and recreational. If anyone can point me to a good source I would appreciate it.

-----

Gene :^)
Http://www.Strathbelle.com/

Thanks for the links Gene,

The requirements don't seem like too big of a deal. Things that a boat that size would probably have anyhow.

 

[GalaxyGirl]

FYI: many people own boats over 65 feet, I just wanted to make you aware of the extra effort required.

Also be aware of line 2 of my post, most boatyards only have 75 ton or less Travel-lifts. You can quickly limit the choice of repair facilities with weight. Most boatyards with larger capacity do not allow DIY work, so you pay their price or go elsewhere but elsewhere is limited.


-----

Gene :^)
Http://www.Strathbelle.com

Yeah, the yard problem I won't be able to get around. thanks for bringing that to my attention.

 

[GalaxyGirl]

Went to the Seattle boat show yesterday, visited. and went on some 60+ ft with 7 in mind. At about 70+ had 4 staterooms, ski bridge, and crew quarters. We have used the pilot house as spare bed room. and even tbe back deck. I gree with Gene above 60 ft there is big jump ln availabilty and cost. It gets to a point you do not ask the cost. We have run into that many times.

Also a wide body, no side decks,mor common on 60+ ft boats offers more living area. The Eagle is a wide body and if we bought another body it would be a wide body. So there are boats that could comfortable accomodate 7 people, but you would still be relying on marine facilities.

Phil, what size is your boat?

You just reminded me of another question that I had. What's the deal with walk around decks. You mentioned that your boat is wide body, so that means that you do not have a walk around, correct? How does that effect docking if at all? I would prefer not having the walk around because I wouldn't want to sacrifice the interior space, but I think I read somewhere that the boat should have it or it is difficult to dock??? What's your take on that?

 

[GalaxyGirl]

You need a boat big enough to comfortably fit 7 - 120 feet or so will work. A major issue you will encounter is holding tank size for that size of group and possibly even a huge grey water tank. Live aboard reality is indeed facing up to waste water management. As crummy as housing prices are in FL why not get a beach front house where you can park your 24' fishing boat?

Waterfront home- Been there/done that.

I think we'll be ok with the wastewater as we will have a pump out at our slip.

 

[Marin]

Walkaround decks can be a real bonus depending on where you boat, the size of your crew, and the characteristics of the boat itself. For this area (PNW) and two people we would not even consider a boat without full walkaround decks. It's one of the things that helped sell us on the idea of a GB even though the boat's design is not one of our favorites.

For a boat with a larger crew or with at least a bow thruster if not a stern thruster as well, and in places where getting a line around a bull rail on float right away is not a common docking requirement, walkaround decks are probably not so important, particularly if there is good access to the dock from the aft cockpit or swimstep.

I'm curious if pumpouts at individual slips is a common thing in some areas. While our 2,000+ boat marina has portable pumpout carts that can be wheeled to one's boat and then returned to the pumpout station for emptying, and at least one marina in this area has a pumpout "barge" that will come to your boat (for a fee), I'm not aware of any marinas in this area that have pumpout equipment assigned or built-in to individual slips.

 

[Phil Fill]

Beware - another long reply

The Eagle is 58 ft, 40+ ton, single engine, full displacement, 3 staterooms, 2 baths so it’s sort of a big boy/girl boat. Well, its bigger than most but not as big as some.

As boats become bigger there are more wide body and/or side deck on one side. Also the boats deck/hull, free board, is high so a person can not step on to the dock, except from the swim platform, or young/spry so you can climb/scurry down the side. I can if necessary, but my wife can not. The Eagle’s bow is 10 ft and the stern is 6 ft off the water. So docking/maneuvering becomes the helms responsibility to get close enough to the dock so a person can step off on to the dock, so side decks become of little use. One of my wife’s requirements was wide body and the railing/sides had to be solid so passenger/crew where protect within the confines of the boat.

A wide body, is only the length of the salon that has not side deck. In the case of the Eagle its about 20 ft. There is usually a side deck to about the middle, pilot house, and the stern of the boat. Control/maneuver the bow and/or the stern and the mid section will follow. Mid spring line and/or the stern line are the first lines secured to the dock, on either of those two lines you can maneuver on. Spring line is preferred.

On bigger boats, at least in the PNW, the command bridge is enclosed and called a ski lounge. Many ski lounges have a bathroom, sitting and some a sleeping area. The Eagle pilot house has a dinette area that can be made in to the bed/sleeping area. Also many have a crew quarters, in the lazaretto, under the stern deck, close to the engine room.

I was very surprised the bank and especially the insurance company did not require a captain/crew when we bought the Eagle as going from a 28 ft, 7 ton boat to a 58 ft, 40+ ton boat is a big step/pucker factor. Be aware that many marines do not accept work/project/ugly boats. The reason we are on the commercial dock is we can get away with more than the fancy pleasure docks.

The marinas we have living in had/have a pump out boat that came to the boat each week to pump the waste for about 15 bucks/week. The new Everett marina has pump out at the slip. If you are in a big marina, a pump out barge/boat can be a good income as most live a board would much rather pay and not worry about it. Pump outs are not my thing. Big mess! I clean/unplug toilets but I do not do pump outs. I mean you have to draw the lines someplace. Oh, maine toilets are a whole discussion by its selve as most dirt people to not know how to use/flush a marine toilet.

Lastly, banks, insurance, and marinas limit and charge higher for live a boards. In the state of Washington 7% of the marina slips can be live a boards, and marinas restrict/limit pets/children. So there are regulations/restrictions in marines, so read the rule/bi law very closely. Before we moved to the Everett marina I talk personally with the port and the marine director about grandchildren, our dog, our boat, the future plans of the marina/dock, and my personal live style before we moved.

Bottom line you do not want to be a live aboard on a bigger than average/normal slip and be giving 30 days notice to vacate, which has happened to many live a boards, including us. So make sure you stay informed as to the marinas plans and change in policy. And you thought being a live aboard was easy?

 

[FF]

I would consider a boat for the first 5 years dockside , and a different boat for actual cruising.

Volume will be required for 7 people , esp 4 teens .

Look in middle America at the great house boats , on the Ten Tom and 'between the lakes" is prime houseboat area. 65 long 20 ft wide and usually 2 stories with top deck too.

No big deal putting down to Fl , after you figure out where you will chose to locate.

Then when you need a cruiser , you will have had the time to study, learn and decide brown or blue water , single or twin , gas or diesel and all the other usual decisions.

A boat is a specialized tool, its always better to drive nails with a hammer than a pair of pliers.

FF

 

[Tom.B]

I don't want to point out the elephant in the room, but does anyone else think that the idea of a FIRST boating experience being 70' to be a bit... umm... out there?

I suppose that if you have the money and can hire a crew and also be a "check writer" for all the regular maintenance than it is an option. However, I would see a 70' first yacht being a toy for a multimillionaire and not someone who wants to completely change their lifestyle to boating. The learning curve is just too steep and you could too quickly become overwhelmed with everything you need to learn about boating to live aboard with five kids and a grandmother.

Maybe it's just me, but I think you are setting yourself up for a major culture shock and certainly turning a large pile of money into a very small one in a VERY short period of time. Be ready for that... That's all I am saying.

Tom-

 

[psneeld]

I don't want to point out the elephant in the room, but does anyone else think that the idea of a FIRST boating experience being 70' to be a bit... umm... out there?

I suppose that if you have the money and can hire a crew and also be a "check writer" for all the regular maintenance than it is an option. However, I would see a 70' first yacht being a toy for a multimillionaire and not someone who wants to completely change their lifestyle to boating. The learning curve is just too steep and you could too quickly become overwhelmed with everything you need to learn about boating to live aboard with five kids and a grandmother.

Maybe it's just me, but I think you are setting yourself up for a major culture shock and certainly turning a large pile of money into a very small one in a VERY short period of time. Be ready for that... That's all I am saying.

Tom-

Maybe not a toy...maybe a fresh start....and if it works great...if it doesn't it may just be a handful of great memories and some that forced her back to land...

It's only money and with enough of it.... anything is possible...

 

[Tom.B]

Fair enough... No offense intended by the way. Just noting my feelings as public record.

 

[Rambler]

....and certainly turning a large pile of money into a very small one in a VERY short period of time. Be ready for that...

Do you know how to sell your boat for a million dollars?

First, buy a two million dollar boat.........

:lol:

 

[Delfin]

Hello all,

I am in the process of preparing to live aboard with my family. I will be purchasing a Trawler somewhere in the 60-70' range. I have specifically been looking at a 65' steel boat that I found. I was wondering what fuel consumption is considered good on a Trawler that size? The broker says she gets 10 gph at 8 knots, that seems a bit high, or maybe not because of the length, not sure?

Also, this boat does not have stabilizers. I do plan to to do some world cruising at some point. Does every long range boat need stabilizers? Is this something that can be added? Anyone know what the ball park cost on adding them to a 65' would be? Is it a big job?

Thanks for your help. I have so much to learn.

That is high fuel consumption. You should be targeting 1.5 to 2 nautical mpg at cruise speeds of around 75%-80% of hull speed. I think your broker may be mistaken, or she has twins or are grossly oversized.

Yes, most people believe that every long range boat needs stabilization. Perhaps a read of Robert Beebe's "Voyaging Under Power" would be of interest to you. He discusses the need for stabilization on ocean going power boats at length. For an install of active fins on a 65' boat I would not be surprised if the entire system cost $75 - $100k, depending on what hydraulics were currently available.

Regarding interior rust on a steel boat, yes a proper survey will discover that. Steel is as dry as fiberglass if properly insulated. Some use foam, in my case, I lined Delfin's hull with acoustic cork, resulting in a zero funk factor.

FF is right that you might consider a different boat for world cruising than for live aboard. They really are two entirely separate missions and by the time you feel you are competent enough to cruise extensively, perhaps some of the teenagers will be off to college, or feel otherwise. As a mother, you already know this, but a child's ability to make everyone in the vicinity miserable is inversely proportional to the distance between you and the child. For live aboards, that argues for a fair amount of space. For cruising, it needn't be, especially if the child is off to school. Plus, when cruising, one's sense of needed space has always shrunk for us, and we have seen families of 5 living quite happily on 38' boats. If you did choose to buy a live aboard optimized boat vs. a multipurpose live aboard/world cruiser, your world of choices open up a great deal. Converted tug boats come to mind. Mechanically capable of going out for weekends, capacious and cheap. Spend some time on Yachtworld.com using their advanced search function and you'll find vessels that might cost $300,000 that could be large enough for your clan. Then when you're ready to push off from the dock for a few years, you will be very knowledgeable on what you need and can pick a vessel with stabilization that will suit the purpose.

Hope that helps, and you have my admiration.

 

[Phil Fill]

Waterfront home- Been there/done that.

I think we'll be ok with the wastewater as we will have a pump out at our slip.

So you already have a slip? What size is the slip?

Do you have a picture or a web site of the boat you are looking at so we have some idea.

Good advise to maybe buy a good live aboard now, and a blue water ocean boat later on. You are probable going to by a lot more for a live aboard which is blue water world cruise capable. Very few people actaully cruise the world and/or cross and ocean. A sail boat is better to cross an ocean than a trawler and cheaper.

 

[Blue Heron]

I would say that most of us didnt know much, when we first started. The learning curve goes up steeply and we all learn as a matter of course. I suspect Gal Girl, will quickly become the expert. I can already "see" a differance in her first post to last. She is hard charger.. her boat will be shipshape and her crew knowledgable... my guess...

 

[greatpapabear]

Hi GalaxyGirl,

My wife and I will soon become liveaboards as well! We have a Fleming 55, and in answer to your fuel consumption question, we get (at 8 knots) 1.4nm/US gallon.

Piers and Lin