Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 03-10-2014, 08:38 PM   #21
GFC
Guru
 
GFC's Avatar
 
City: Tri Cities, WA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Beachcomber
Vessel Model: Sea Ray 550 Sedan Bridge
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,688
John, IMO adding weight to a boat that already rolls a lot, even at deck level, would add to the rolling. It would likely change the amount the boat rolls (the angle of deviation from straight up) plus the "roll rate". That's the 'frequency' of the roll if you can think of it that way.

One thing to look at in the design of a boat that will have a significant effect on the roll is the shape of the chine. Many trawlers have rounded ("soft") chines as opposed to the hard ("rounded") chines found on planning hulls. Soft chines will allow a boat hull to roll more easily than a hard chine because the hard chines don't allow water to pass by as easily.

Here's an example of a round or soft chine....


and another of a hard chine....
__________________
Advertisement

__________________
Mike and Tina
Beachcomber 1995 Sea Ray 550 Sedan Bridge
GFC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2014, 08:49 PM   #22
Moderator Emeritus
 
jwnall's Avatar
 
City: St. Marks, Florida
Country: US
Vessel Name: Morgan
Vessel Model: Gulfstar 36
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 3,621
Quote:
Originally Posted by GFC View Post
John, IMO adding weight to a boat that already rolls a lot, even at deck level, would add to the rolling. It would likely change the amount the boat rolls (the angle of deviation from straight up) plus the "roll rate". That's the 'frequency' of the roll if you can think of it that way.
Yes, seems that way to me also. This Gulfstar rolls about as much as any boat that I have ever seen, and I find it hard to believe that they are all that like that! Not really a problem for me personally, because although not a dock queen I am a river rat (and thus no wave action 99% of the time). But just seems as if the weight on either side at deck level would be an issue.
__________________

__________________
John
jwnall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2014, 10:48 PM   #23
Guru
 
Dougcole's Avatar
 
City: Carrabelle, FL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Morgan
Vessel Model: '05 Mainship 40T
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 800
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwnall View Post
Doug, I was wondering (during my periodic periods of idly wondering, while sipping on an evening glass of wine) whether or not putting those new fuel tanks up near deck level on Morgan (the Gulfstar Morgan), when the original fuel tank was down at the bottom, might contribute to the excessive rolling that you (and I) experienced??? Seems to me that would affect the center of gravity. Thoughts?
Possible, I guess, but personally I think it is more hull shape. It is a really rounded chine design. I know a lot of people on here will scream about this and say how a soft chine boat does not "snap" and has a gentler motion, but I don't know. What I do know is that the new boat (hard chine) rolls a LOT less (about 2/3 less) than the old one and it has a ton of weight up high with that big FB.

I don't want to rip my old love though, she was a very good boat for us for a long time.

Those tanks are about 2 to 3 feet higher than the old tank. At 240 gallons total they likely weigh about 2,000 pounds full (including the weight of the tanks). They are not always full and I never noticed a difference in the roll when they were closer to empty. Someone on here can likely do the math and tell us. I had a post on the old PM forum about adding ballast, and IIRC the consensus was that it would not help much.

Also, it is not like the old tank is now completely empty and weightless. I used to store all our extra beer down there for a 4 to 6 week Bahamas trip. That's a lot of weight.
Dougcole is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2014, 11:50 PM   #24
Guru
 
hollywood8118's Avatar
 
City: Port Townsend Washington
Country: USA
Vessel Name: " OTTER "
Vessel Model: Ocean Alexander Europa 40
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,482
Quote:

Without painting with TOO broad of a brush, Caribbean island-hopping is far more in the realm of the sailboat. Not that it CAN'T be done with a powerboat, but most of the island-hopping powerboats we've encountered are super and mega yachts. Little boats like ours (and the people aboard them) aren't really meant for the open ocean that you'll find between many of the Caribbean islands and would be pretty lousy in a pop-up squall.

wow... don't tell that to any of the folks here with Nordhanv, KK, Selene's or any of the other numerous trawlers that have and are doing the Caribbean or are doing it right now....
Also don't tell the owner of the boat that I just got back from the BVI about it... It has only gone from Northern B.C. to the BVI in the last year

Just because you don't want to do it doesn't keep it from happening on a regular basis..

HOLLYWOOD
hollywood8118 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2014, 07:36 AM   #25
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,892
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dougcole View Post
Possible, I guess, but personally I think it is more hull shape. It is a really rounded chine design. I know a lot of people on here will scream about this and say how a soft chine boat does not "snap" and has a gentler motion, but I don't know. What I do know is that the new boat (hard chine) rolls a LOT less (about 2/3 less) than the old one and it has a ton of weight up high with that big FB.

I don't want to rip my old love though, she was a very good boat for us for a long time.

Those tanks are about 2 to 3 feet higher than the old tank. At 240 gallons total they likely weigh about 2,000 pounds full (including the weight of the tanks). They are not always full and I never noticed a difference in the roll when they were closer to empty. Someone on here can likely do the math and tell us. I had a post on the old PM forum about adding ballast, and IIRC the consensus was that it would not help much.

Also, it is not like the old tank is now completely empty and weightless. I used to store all our extra beer down there for a 4 to 6 week Bahamas trip. That's a lot of weight.
Some might but I won't scream ...you have to remember some of those folks only "think" they understand hull design. Yes I know a picture (usually their determination of your boats performance and stability) is worth a thousand words...but usually isn't worth one performance curve image.

In addition to the shape of the hull, weight placement is important and does affect roll. By having the heavy flying bridge...it slows the roll...you just don't want it so slow you can't hold your breath underwater long enough till it comes back up....
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2014, 10:39 AM   #26
Guru
 
windmill29130's Avatar
 
City: Little River SC
Vessel Name: JAZ
Vessel Model: Ta Chaio/CT35
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 716
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlowery View Post
I really appreciate all of your suggestions. After considering all of your suggestions I realized that it may be 5 years before we are able to leave work long enough to visit the Caribbean islands. Until then it will be short hops around St. Pete and occasionally to the Keys.

A Carver 406 Aft Cabin or Sea Ray 42 Aft Cabin may be my best bet. The 43 Mainships that I reviewed on Yacht World were over my budget.
Thanks again for your help!
The Sea Ray 42 Aft Cabin is a nice boat, I looked at them extensively. When I found out about the cored hull below the waterline and all the moisture and water problems I decided that I wasn't willing to have that issue ever lingering in the back of my mind. Peace of mind is important when owning a boat.
windmill29130 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2014, 12:51 PM   #27
Guru
 
caltexflanc's Avatar
 
City: North Carolina for now
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Small Incentive
Vessel Model: Boston Whaler 130 Sport
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,792
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlowery View Post
I really appreciate all of your suggestions. After considering all of your suggestions I realized that it may be 5 years before we are able to leave work long enough to visit the Caribbean islands. Until then it will be short hops around St. Pete and occasionally to the Keys.

A Carver 406 Aft Cabin or Sea Ray 42 Aft Cabin may be my best bet. The 43 Mainships that I reviewed on Yacht World were over my budget.
Thanks again for your help!
It would help us help you if you tell us a bit about your boating experience (boats owned/rented/cruised as guest; and where, that kind of thing), and what boats you and yours have been on so far in the course of your quest. And that ladder thing.... is there an agility issue? Some of the boats you name require a pretty spry person to get around on them.

Dollar-wise. initial buying of the boat is one thing, have you a budget for operating costs? Are you handy at boat-related repair and maintenance?

I really encourage buying Pascoe's book; it will really help you evaluate things for you to weigh based on your personal preferences, budget and abilities. But again just focus on the first two thirds; I think his discussion about different makes of boats and engines is a little over wrought for reasons discussed earlier.
__________________
George

"There's the Right Way, the Wrong Way, and what some guy says he's gotten away with"
caltexflanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2014, 04:19 PM   #28
Guru
 
AusCan's Avatar
 
City: Adelaide
Country: Australia
Vessel Name: Kokanee
Vessel Model: Cuddles 30 Pilot House Motor Sailer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,095
mlowery - There aren't any "bad" brands out there, although lots of bad boats that have been poorly maintained.

Regarding seaworthiness - IMO, the boat is seldom the limiting factor when crossing rough water. It is usually the captain and crew's comfort level.
Some people don't mind strapping everything down and riding it out. Others turn back when drinks are getting spilled.

Hull shape plays a part in determining comfort level, but without hydraulic stabilizers, paravanes, or sails, any hull will still roll like a #@$& in a big beam sea.

Personally - I'd rather be in a well maintained Carver than a poorly maintained Marine Trader when doing a major crossing.
AusCan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2014, 04:42 PM   #29
Senior Member
 
bobsyiruncle's Avatar
 
City: Winnipeg
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Brass Ring
Vessel Model: 38 bayliner
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 147
Mr Mlowery liked
"Gulfstar, Nova, Heritage East, Marine Trader, Present, and a couple of others." at 90 to 150 or so
I might be a minority but I thought those were pretty rational choices as I liked them all myself but I did think they might close slightly cheaper
bobsyiruncle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2014, 05:52 PM   #30
Senior Member
 
Bilgewater's Avatar
 
City: New Bern, N.C.
Country: USA
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 257
I have to chine in again with the mantra that was given to us when we were shopping.

"Don't buy the biggest boat you can afford, buy the smallest you can live on."

Ownership costs go up exponentially with size, mostly in length. Make a Want / Need list. Then be brutally honest with yourselves about so-called Needs. Many Needs become Nice To Have with a little thought. A friend down the dock from me just put a new glass radar/nav/gps/ring for a beer system on his boat. He spent more on that than I did for my boat. Fine if you have the bucks and want to do it. Seems I spend more time underway than he does, but to each his own. I'm a big fan of simplicity. I want to own the boat, not the other way around. Best of luck in the hunt!
__________________
Bilgewater
"Keep putting off till tomorrow, and you'll end up with a lot of empty yesterdays" Prof. Harold Hill
Bilgewater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2014, 07:04 AM   #31
Guru
 
ranger42c's Avatar
 
City: Maryland
Country: USA
Vessel Model: 42' Sportfish
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 3,159
Quote:
Originally Posted by kthoennes View Post
I don't mean to get all defensive just because we own a Carver - and now we're in the process of making an offer on a 3807 -

You'll hear people say over and over again that Carvers (and some other production boats) are not seaworthy, but I'm not doing a transatlantic either. From my perspective you get a lot of boat for the money in that class, they're not a million dollars, and I've found maintenance to be relatively easy except for engine bay access sometimes).

We don't like SeaRay (poor layout and use of space), Silverton really is cheap and flimsy, older Marine Traders seem to have port and seam leakage problems like crazy - but that's all just our own opinion and our own experience - have fun and spend time forming yours.

In my experience, there's no significant difference in build quality between Carver and Silverton (and Luhrs, and Mainship), Cruisers, Sea Ray, etc. They're all decent Chevies -- or Fords, or Dodges, whatever you like.

-Chris
__________________
South River, Chesapeake Bay
ranger42c is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2014, 07:28 AM   #32
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,892
Quote:
Originally Posted by ranger42c View Post
In my experience, there's no significant difference in build quality between Carver and Silverton (and Luhrs, and Mainship), Cruisers, Sea Ray, etc. They're all decent Chevies -- or Fords, or Dodges, whatever you like.

-Chris
Tend to agree...big mistake by many is comparing different year or size groups...jump a few model years and there can be some vast differences even in quality.

Sometimes even which factory location has an effect on quality.
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2014, 01:25 PM   #33
Guru
 
ranger42c's Avatar
 
City: Maryland
Country: USA
Vessel Model: 42' Sportfish
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 3,159
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
Tend to agree...big mistake by many is comparing different year or size groups...jump a few model years and there can be some vast differences even in quality.

Sometimes even which factory location has an effect on quality.

Yep, those too. Certainly a '90s or '00s boat is likely to have improvements over a '70s version of roughly the same boat from the same builder.

-Chris
__________________
South River, Chesapeake Bay
ranger42c is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2014, 04:35 PM   #34
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,892
Quote:
Originally Posted by ranger42c View Post
Yep, those too. Certainly a '90s or '00s boat is likely to have improvements over a '70s version of roughly the same boat from the same builder.

-Chris
Seems like the mid-90s brought the biggest improvements on all levels.
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2014, 05:58 PM   #35
Member
 
City: Tacoma
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Fjord Explorer
Vessel Model: Bayliner 2452
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 5
Thanks for the discussion folks! My dream is to retire in 5 years, sell the house and buy a 45'-50' boat to cruise Alaska & BC 6 months out of the year. Then either live aboard at a marina or stay at my girlfriends house in Federal Way, Wa.(although the dream of wintering in the Mexican Riviera sure has appeal, tough slog to get down there tho..). The worry is maintenance cost. 7-10k/year might be doable, and I'm pretty mechanically inclined. Then of course fuel and moorage for 6 months. Does this sound like a pretty realistic picture of ongoing costs?
whirrr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2014, 06:28 PM   #36
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 13,146
Quote:
Originally Posted by whirrr View Post
Thanks for the discussion folks! My dream is to retire in 5 years, sell the house and buy a 45'-50' boat to cruise Alaska & BC 6 months out of the year. Then either live aboard at a marina or stay at my girlfriends house in Federal Way, Wa.(although the dream of wintering in the Mexican Riviera sure has appeal, tough slog to get down there tho..). The worry is maintenance cost. 7-10k/year might be doable, and I'm pretty mechanically inclined. Then of course fuel and moorage for 6 months. Does this sound like a pretty realistic picture of ongoing costs?
Obviously there are many variables, one being what condition the boat is in when you buy it. For most years 7-10k would seem doable. It might even be a bit high. However, the other part is being ready for major work. The biggest is an engine going on you but even things like generators can get expensive. When purchasing you need to make sure you save enough of your available funds to do those things you see an immediate need for but also to handle a major surprise.
BandB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2014, 07:59 PM   #37
Dauntless Award
 
Wxx3's Avatar
 
City: New York, NY
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Dauntless
Vessel Model: Kadey Krogen 42 - 148
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,313
Welcome.

Great Avatar
Sorry i did not think of it
__________________
M/Y Dauntless, New York
a Kadey Krogen 42 Currently https://share.delorme.com/dauntless
Blog: https://dauntlessatsea.com
Find us: https://share.delorme.com/dauntless
Wxx3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2014, 06:36 AM   #38
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,525
He rarely has a good thing to say about them, and that flies in the face of thousands of very satisfied SR owners

Every boat is simply a TOOL to do a job , perhaps Pascoe has a different idea of what the job of Boat is from the thousands of SR owners..
FF is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2014, 09:57 AM   #39
Guru
 
caltexflanc's Avatar
 
City: North Carolina for now
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Small Incentive
Vessel Model: Boston Whaler 130 Sport
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,792
Quote:
Originally Posted by FF View Post
He rarely has a good thing to say about them, and that flies in the face of thousands of very satisfied SR owners

Every boat is simply a TOOL to do a job , perhaps Pascoe has a different idea of what the job of Boat is from the thousands of SR owners..
Couple things. First that is a mischaracterization of Pascoe on SeaRays. he reviewed a few he liked. In his book, he calls them the most frustrating brand to figure out: some boats very good, some very bad, some a mix of both, some just mediocre. GM and Ford have made millions of cars... with the same mix of issues. Second, having witnessed many thousand of SeaRay owners in action, I would have to say I would not take their overall "vote" all that seriously. Just like the boats, there is a real mix, but they do market primarily to the first time buyer and casual user. I'd say each SeaRay needs to be evaluated on its own merits, which is Pascoe's ultimate conclusion as well.
__________________
George

"There's the Right Way, the Wrong Way, and what some guy says he's gotten away with"
caltexflanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2014, 02:41 PM   #40
Guru
 
healhustler's Avatar
 
City: Longboat Key, FL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Bucky
Vessel Model: Krogen Manatee 36 North Sea
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 4,181
Even in boats with quality reps, there are many differences. We have a saying at Krogen about "If you've seen one Krogen, you've seen one Krogen". In a boat, huge consequences come from slight over-sights. I've not found any huge mistakes anywhere in my boat, but an inadequate fastener and questionable welding, you bet. Art Kadey couldn't be there to watch everything on every boat. Jimmy Krogen (James Krogen's son) couldn't control every aspect of every detail. Sometimes an extra crew was needed on a Friday afternoon to do hardware installation...you know what I mean. To maintain consistency in the quality of one item has become nearly impossible since "global" marine construction began. Trying to do it with 10,000 items from companies that are doing what they can to squeeze-out enough profit to please stockholders or survive a downturn.....well.
__________________

__________________
Larry

"I'd rather be happy than dignified".
healhustler is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:29 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012