Liveaboards in south Florida - What are our rights?

[JoeKel]

Hi! We're new to the forum and are hoping our fellow boaters can give us more information.

We just moved to a new marina after being kicked out without notice from the Safe Harbor Regatta Point in Palmetto where we had signed an annual contract. Fees were automatically paid on time every month and we had no issues with anyone - or so we thought. We had a golf cart and scooter parked in the parking lot, and two limos that were legally parked away from the marina on city property (police verified). We were six months into the lease when the dockmaster gave us a notice from a lawyer to leave without cause. Since we were planning on looking for a more "tropical island" vibe anyway, we just decided that it made us move sooner than we planned. However, it was a huge pain even trying to find anywhere that allows liveaboards.

We actually didn't even find one - we went for one month to the Bradenton Beach Marina where you can stay 8 nights per month. However, we actually live on the boat. I rent a room in a house and have a new motorhome, so I have a physical mailing address. However, Joe has been living on the boat for years. We both just came over from Fort Lauderdale last January.

We just moved to the Seafood Shack Marina in Cortez (Bradenton Beach) after waiting for a slip for a month. They know that we are liveaboards, and have others here who do...along with some derelict boats that are in disrepair and never attended to. We got here on the 1st and have a great relationship (so we thought) with the dockmaster. We parked our one car, two golf carts and two scooters exactly where he told us to; he even told us where to charge the carts.

However, the day we arrived some other assistant dockmaster started giving us a hard time, first telling us to clean up our boat (which isn't bad but could be painted - we've actively been working on that), and then telling us to move the boat to another slip. It progressed to a point where he started telling us that "the big boss" (unknown and he won't name) said we have to move the golf carts and scooters completely off the property or they would be towed in a matter of hours, and even that we had to leave with our boat by the end of the night! There is no reason - we've complied with everything the dockmaster has said, and even what this new unknown guy said!

So our question is basically - what are our rights as liveaboard boat owners in Florida (Manatee County)?! Can any marina just up and kick you out without notice and without reason? We're the largest boat in the marina so we figured we should be their best customer, since we're paying the most rent by the foot. However, it feels like we're being harassed and discriminated against, and it's causing a ton of stress and anxiety, not to mention time and expense as we search for a place to live.

Any help, insights, information or stories will be greatly appreciated!!!

Thanks in advance

 

[Don L]

I think asking legal advise on a boat forum is silly

But you probably have little rights against a marina

 

[mvweebles]

I assume you signed a contract of some sort. You probably have a better idea of where the marina(s) claim you went sideways. Could be some sort of oblique/vague clause, but you have a contract.

If you are asking about possibility of tennant/eviction rights that might flow-down to a liveaboard boat, my understanding is that is a dead end. Your rights and remedies are described in your contract.

The above said, I feel your pain. Sounds like you're vested in the liveaboard lifestyle. Unfortunately, current times are not in your favor.

Best of luck -

Peter

 

[JoeKel]

I think asking legal advise on a boat forum is silly

But you probably have little rights against a marina

I'm not asking actual legal advise, Don - I'm a notary public and paralegal. I don't know the law myself! I was just asking if anybody had any ideas, or had been through a similar situation.

I find it crazy that we have such strong tenant rights for people in homes, but not for people who live on boats - particularly in our state. It takes a lot of work and a long time to evict someone (usually), but you can just evict a liveaboard boat owner from their "home" (power and electric, at the least) without notice or cause. It's so hard to find an actual liveaboard marina anymore, and with the costs of rents and physical houses, etc., it just further hurts the residents of Florida. :-(

 

[tiltrider1]

I am not a Florida lawyer so some details of Florida law could be lost on me.

In General Marinas are commercial properties and come under commercial rules. This means all the tenant laws do not apply to you. You have pretty munc no rights in a month to month rental situation. No reasons are needed to end the agreement at the end of the rental period.

A actual lease gives you all the rights included in the lease. One would need to read the lease to see what your rights are. Of course the lease was written by the landlord so you probably have no rights.


In short, you are upset because the landlord is not interested in doing business you. Look at from his prospective, you show up with 4 permanent vehicles associated with one slip rental. The landlord has an expectation of less than one vehicle per slip rental and you show up with 4. This is your first problem. The key to being a liveaboard is to be unnoticeable.

 

[mvweebles]

....The key to being a liveaboard is to be unnoticeable.

There is a lot of truth here. I have not considered myself a liveaboard for the last year, but I have been --- in Ensenada, now Mazatlan. These marinas are fine with liveaboards. They charge a few bucks extra for the privelage.

The US is different. Marinas are often attached to other land-based attractions and want a storybook vista. Liveaboards with dusty cars serving as ad hoc storage units doesn't fit the image so legal liveaboard, always difficult, have become rare as hens teeth. Ive spent about 7-8 years of the last 30-years as a liveaboard, always a sneak-aboard except for this last year in Mexico. Sneak-aboard with full wink-wink permission of the harbor master. My boat and vehicle was indistinquishible from any other boat in the marina. And I used it a bunch - turns out harbor masters have a soft spot for people who use their boats as boats.

But it sounds like you've committed to be fully liveaboard. Sneakaboard isn't really in the cards for you so you'll have to do it straight-up. You are looking for a marina that charges a liveaboard fee plus a parking fee (maybe some other requirements). It may not be convenient, but somewhere, there is bound to be a place for you.

Best success

Peter

 

[kapthook]

I understand the 2 scooters, but do you really need 2 golf carts and 2 limo's? I think you are going to have a problem anywhere you move to. You might want to look at a storage unit.



I assume the limos are the 1990s variety? Or are you running a business out of the marina?

 

[BruceK]

There is some helpful analysis above.
I`m not sure you were evicted. You were told to leave, it seems without it being related to your occupation Agreement, and you did. If you wanted to test your rights you could have held firm and waited for developments.

Obviously there needs to be a third occupancy shortly but unfortunately, you are building a history which may precede you to the next marina. One marina getting it very wrong is possible, 2 getting it wrong in a short period raises questions.
You have a "legal" background, be sure to read the next Agreement and assess how it stands with what you need in terms of accommodation for the boat, yourselves, and everything else.

 

[Slo-Mocean]

Any slip availability in SW Florida is at a premium since the hurricane wiped out a couple thousand slips with many of them being live aboards at older marinas that are not being rebuilt.

All my friends lived on their boats at Salty Sam's across the channel from Fort Myers Beach, which was a great marina with quality floating docks that were destroyed and are still a year out from being replaced.

But even they had a strict 1 vehicle per a boat as parking is a problem everywhere.

 

[Benthic2]

I find it crazy that we have such strong tenant rights for people in homes, but not for people who live on boats - particularly in our state-(

I think eviction is hard for land based landlords because landlords might get too greedy and evict a person who has no where else to go, no access to a lawyer, no friend with a spare room, no car to sleep in and could be easily taken advantage of. I'm not saying landlords are evil or anything, but an eviction for a person on the low end of the economic spectrum could be devastating.

Boat owners, actually with liveaboards it is usually Large Boat owners, are not generally thought of as the "little guy" that needs protection from "the system"

You have money and work with lawyers and you came here for help? Even if someone here could tell you a Florida statute that helped you out, you can't go to the marina and say: "well this guy on this forum said you can't do this.." You are going to need a lawyer at some point. If they can't help you it won't cost more than a half hour or so. If they can help you, it will be more and you'll have to figure out if that is the route you want to take.

I would insist that all communication be in writing.

I would un-bundle your land and sea vehicles. Learn to live with one space at a marina and rent some parking off site for the rest of the fleet.

Are you hoping to repair your relationship with Marina #2, or looking ahead for what your rights will be at Marina #3?

I have to admit something seems missing. "Perfect tenent gets kicked out of marina for no reason----TWICE!" It just doesn't pass my logic test. Either you have with held some details, or you really managed to piss off 2 separate marinas without knowing why. If it is the latter, you need to figure out what you did before you do it again.

Then you'll have to come back here and ask how big an anchor is required for a 60ft boat that will be permanently anchored in the hurricane capital of the world.

 

[Miz Trom]

It's possible that your slip at The Seafood Shack might be a case of bad timing.


The Shack was put up for sale this year. If the owner signed a sale contract after the date listed in this article, you might have snagged that slip just as the sale was about to close.


https://www.islander.org/2023/05/seafood-shack-hits-the-market/


And if the new owners are looking to put up condos, all the boats will be chased away.


Good luck finding a spot to land,
Mrs. Trombley

 

[CharlieO.]

Maybe you should purchase a slip?

 

[psneeld]

Maybe you should purchase a slip?

This may be the last and only route for liveaboards (at least in high demand areas).

My experience as a liveaboard at Ft Pierce City Marina showed me a couple things about marinas (not all but many)

1. You really aren't or can't become invisible. Some try hard and are almost successful (more so accepted vs unknown) , but many are a PIA to the marina in other ways and constantly on their radar.

2. People that work at marinas all aren't smart, but they are observant when
they want to be. Thus they pretty well know your actions/habits. If nothing
else, other boaters rat you out (whether fully true or not).

3. You can become friendly with some workers, but never think that they can
really sway management.

4. Even decent liveaboard marinas in Florida are under pressure from all
sides to limit or eliminate liveaboards even though it makes no sense to
boaters.

5. The rules and fees for liveaboards generally have changed a lot in the last
4-5 years and seem to have accelerated (demand for slips after
hurricanes?)

6. Legally, it seems there are way more laws against liveaboards than to
protect them.

7. Between all the above and the insurance changes/difficulties.... added
greatly to the reasons to give up being a liveaboard after 3 times totaling
15 years.

 

[twistedtree]

Given the pattern of eviction, I think you need to take a hard look in the mirror to see how you might be contributing to the situation.


If the boat looks shabby, it drags down the appearance and appeal of the whole marina, and marina owners and other tenants aren't going to want that.


Do you have stuff that spills out onto the dock, or are you 100% contained in the boat?


Do you have music or other "noise" going all the time or frequently during the day? And anything in the evening or night? That will generate complaints.


Does the boat look like a boat, or does it look like a home? Plants outside? Stuff piled up in the cockpit and on the decks?


What about these limos? Are they part of a working limo business, or are they your personal vehicles? If they are part of a working business, then it might appear you are running a business out of the marina. Or are they mobile storage units, piled full of stuff?



What about the golf carts? Do you actively use them, and if so, for what? Presumably they are not street legal? Are you really just storing them at the marina?


And what about the scooters? Are they registered and used for daily transportation? If so, that seems ligit, but it really depends on how they are used, or not used.


If nothing else, it seems you are taking up way more than a normal share of space at the marina with 6 vehicles. And if your stuff is spilled out onto the dock, it all contributes to a very large "footprint" at the marina.


Are you coming and going at all hours of the day, or odd hours of the day?


These are some things that come to mind, that I think will generate issues with a Marina, and generate complaints from other tenants. For whatever reason, these marinas are deciding they want you gone, and I think you need to reflect on what those reasons might be.

 

[DBG8492]

The key to being a liveaboard is to be unnoticeable.

I agree with this and some of what Psneeld said later in his post.

It's difficult to become invisible. Marina management and employees will be aware of you and everything you do. And other boaters will rat you out. However, there are steps you can take to make your presence something other than a detriment.

The absolute best thing you can do is keep the lowest "bad" profile possible - keep your boat and the dock around you clean and tidy; if the boat needs work, do it - but keep the work in your area as much as possible and clean up when you're done - including other areas or boats if you affect them; keep your noise levels down; if you use marina facilities, clean them up when you're done; keep the number of vehicles to a minimum and park as far away as you can so there's less visibility.

The next thing to do is start cultivating relationships with everyone you can - other boaters, dock workers, management, and if you can - the owners. Offer to help whenever possible with anything you can. Make yourself useful to anyone and everyone for pretty much anything.

When you do these things, you become a valuable asset to the community, and everyone (including the workers and management) will be far less likely to want to see you leave. And if you leave of your own accord, everyone will notice because the community will be worse off for it.

It's funny - these principles don't just work in marinas - they work pretty much everywhere.

 

[Larry M]

Our home marina in Jacksonville didn’t allow live-a-boards but did allow “full time cruisers”. There were about 40 “full time” cruisers living on their boats.

 

[ksanders]

My key takeaway from the OP's post is that they have been asked to leave two marinas.

Solve the reason why, and you solve your problems.

 

[Osprey69]

At this point it all begins and ends with the contract. The breach(?) of which may be instigated by many external (marina being bought?) or internal (too many vehicles?) forces. Have it reviewed. And try to get an annual contract next time, it is better for the marina and better for you. And when shopping for your next marina, show up in person. IMHO it makes a world of difference in getting a yes.

 

[psneeld]

Not sure I would compare S. Florida to any other place except high slip demand areas.

The old standbys on the East Coast were always Newport, Annapolis and Ft Lauderdale.

While the whole east coast seems to be in extraordinary high demand, but it does seem some places are almost locked up tight.

 

[kthoennes]

I work in a legal environment too, but as soon as you have to start citing, debating and demanding compliance with the terms of a contract with a marina, it's not going to be a happy relationship. As a practical matter I'm trapped in the marina we're using now -- almost zero competition geographically and of course FL couldn't be more different with marina availability. But even so, even in FL, if you start quoting contract terms to the marina and demanding legal compliance you're in for a confrontational situation. Like a number of other posters have said, I'd go at it from a different, more cooperative angle.

 

[BroadCove]

Here's a link to slips for sale at Riviera Dunes Marina, near where you are. Not inexpensive for sure, but I spent several months there and came to know many liveaboards. Note that not all slips allow liveaboards, so you would need to inquire if the slips which are for sale and would work for you (three of them it looks like) have liveaboard rights as part of the deed. https://rdmarina.com/slips-for-sale/

 

[BobMc]

Maybe you should purchase a slip?

And make sure your contract enumerates how many land vehicles you can have on the premises. There's obviously an undercurrent of unknown and undisclosed facts here which suggest for those of us who like to assume facts not in evidence that there's a heck of a lot more to the story of your eviction.

 

[Invincible Summer]

All Safe Harbor marinas do not allow live-aboards - the clause is in their contract. So, that legal issue is quite cut-n-dry. If you signed the contract, you are subject to it. Not sure about the other marina you referenced, but you might want to check the contract there as well. If you're a paralegal, then you should know about contracts. All of that said, our boat is moored at a Safe Harbor Marina in the Midwest and we live on our boat for 3 months during the summer. Safe Harbor has never said a thing about it. Then again, our boat is keep in shipshape and Bristol fashion. At the end of the day, marinas do not want boats that are derelict and may cause an issue for them or others. So, if the dock master is telling you that your boat needs work, that is a HUGE red flag to me. If our dockmaster would have to tell a boater in our marina that their boat needs work, I'll guarantee you they'd be walking the plank and fast.

 

[rwaldrop13]

Hi! We're new to the forum and are hoping our fellow boaters can give us more information.

We just moved to a new marina after being kicked out without notice from the Safe Harbor Regatta Point in Palmetto where we had signed an annual contract. Fees were automatically paid on time every month and we had no issues with anyone - or so we thought. We had a golf cart and scooter parked in the parking lot, and two limos that were legally parked away from the marina on city property (police verified). We were six months into the lease when the dockmaster gave us a notice from a lawyer to leave without cause. Since we were planning on looking for a more "tropical island" vibe anyway, we just decided that it made us move sooner than we planned. However, it was a huge pain even trying to find anywhere that allows liveaboards.

We actually didn't even find one - we went for one month to the Bradenton Beach Marina where you can stay 8 nights per month. However, we actually live on the boat. I rent a room in a house and have a new motorhome, so I have a physical mailing address. However, Joe has been living on the boat for years. We both just came over from Fort Lauderdale last January.

We just moved to the Seafood Shack Marina in Cortez (Bradenton Beach) after waiting for a slip for a month. They know that we are liveaboards, and have others here who do...along with some derelict boats that are in disrepair and never attended to. We got here on the 1st and have a great relationship (so we thought) with the dockmaster. We parked our one car, two golf carts and two scooters exactly where he told us to; he even told us where to charge the carts.

However, the day we arrived some other assistant dockmaster started giving us a hard time, first telling us to clean up our boat (which isn't bad but could be painted - we've actively been working on that), and then telling us to move the boat to another slip. It progressed to a point where he started telling us that "the big boss" (unknown and he won't name) said we have to move the golf carts and scooters completely off the property or they would be towed in a matter of hours, and even that we had to leave with our boat by the end of the night! There is no reason - we've complied with everything the dockmaster has said, and even what this new unknown guy said!

So our question is basically - what are our rights as liveaboard boat owners in Florida (Manatee County)?! Can any marina just up and kick you out without notice and without reason? We're the largest boat in the marina so we figured we should be their best customer, since we're paying the most rent by the foot. However, it feels like we're being harassed and discriminated against, and it's causing a ton of stress and anxiety, not to mention time and expense as we search for a place to live.

Any help, insights, information or stories will be greatly appreciated!!!

Thanks in advance

There's a similar issue happening here in Ft Myers

https://winknews.com/2023/12/08/marina-boat-owners-downtown-fort-myers/?mibextid=zoDNOU

 

[STB]

St Pete allows liveaboards for a small fee. They have a waitlist. You can get on it. Your name will come up eventually.

But, like everyone says, you do want to figure out how to use very little beyond your slip and a single parking space and to make sure the boat looks clean, uncluttered, and seasworthy.

 

[ssobol]

You need to think of a slip as a parking place for your boat, not a home. The fact that your home is parked there is immaterial.

 

[Shaunc]

Ofter reading a couple of the responses to the threads and your initial post, I can definitely say that the excess vehicles use of parking is definitely a problem.

The Marina I am in eventually put up gates and signs saying no golf carts allowed.on the property.

They are very restrictive to one vehicle per slip And were even more restrictive until I purchased my own slip. This definitely does give me some leeway. Also, you need to check the state statute on liveboards. There’s a lot of out-of-state owners who are not aware of the Florida statutes.

Even if you are a liveaboard in so-called allowed liveaboard marinas it’s always best to fly under the radar with very little abuse or excess use of other privileges, like parking, etc..

 

[mvweebles]

.....Also, you need to check the state statute on liveboards. There’s a lot of out-of-state owners who are not aware of the Florida statutes.....

Can you provide a link or something here; and what rights are inferred or conveyed? The only statutory reference to Liveaboard in the Florida codes I am aware of is definitional, specifically (HERE):

(23) “Live-aboard vessel” means:
(a) A vessel used solely as a residence and not for navigation;
(b) A vessel for which a declaration of domicile has been filed pursuant to s. 222.17; or
(c) A vessel used as a residence that does not have an effective means of propulsion for safe navigation.
A commercial fishing vessel is expressly excluded from the term “live-aboard vessel.”​

Note the "or" (versus "and") before the last paragraph (highlighted for convenience). This means that only one of the conditions need be met to be considered a liveaboard.

In short, related to Liveaboards, the Florida codes are used to define when a boat can be considered part of an unwanted category and thereby subject to enforcement activity - meaning no one wants to be considered a liveaboard so they skirt the definition. I could find no reference that conveys protections or desireable status to a liveaboard (such as tennants rights in eviction proceedings), the OP's question.

Did I miss something?

Peter

 

[psneeld]

However, liveaboard for marina use is much broader.

They sometimes just use overnights ler week or month.

 

[PierreR]

I have encountered places where "Live Aboard" was defined as someone who did not have a legitimate dirt home address where they owned the home.