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Old 06-21-2013, 11:38 AM   #41
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how can anyone even remotely make an educated assessment from those photos?
Specifics?
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Old 06-21-2013, 10:00 PM   #42
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1. Believe that broker comments on ad made years ago.

2. Fact - the broker I called sounded almost languid if not complacent. He honestly said that the boat does not match the pics and that due to
Owner's declining health, boat had serious needs. So he did not blow sunshine up my stern.

3. My pics were yesterday. Boat is beautiful - for potential - but pictures on ad do not represent today's boat. I did not want to climb up (it was high and likely trespassing) to see inside or on deck.

4. Boat could be a great buy for someone with a bit or more if time.

Depends on your point of view. But they really should update their pics to reality. Size-wise, boat is as big as the ad pics. But condition is much to be desired.
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Old 06-24-2013, 09:03 AM   #43
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Loved the original ad pics, and as you said Ben, a boat with a lot of potential. Maybe its my inexperience with the construction mentioned, but I would be far less scared of a true fiberglass, or true wood construction. Its the combo that scares me. I think about all the places water can collect between the two materials, and wood rots when that happens. That's a shame for such a pretty boat. Unfortunately, I think the true value of that boat is less than $40,000...let alone asking price. Not to mention the need for probably $100,000 in reserve for refitting as a starting point.

Still, I don't think you should discard the idea of a liveaboard. Maybe that boat isn't the right one...maybe your marine trader isn't either (though you could do an update of systems - a/c, head, galley etc - to make her more comfy and reliable). But maybe the boat that would be a home and a vacation spot at the same time is out there. There are a LOT of boats on the market, and some are projects, while others have had money poured into them and are immaculate.

The way I see it...there are two kinds of people. The first says, "yes, I thought about trying that." The second says, "I tried that." I believe we only live once, and at 46 I am still trying new things.

P.S. - I just bought Belladonna and am preparing her for living aboard.
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Old 06-24-2013, 10:15 AM   #44
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We've learned that it is important to have a clear understanding with marina management as to your personal lifestyle preferences. Our harbor master historically parked all "full time" slip boats in a group that was separate from transients. His thinking was that he would get less noise complaints as a result of party-hardy transient boaters. No problem with that if the full time slip occupants were weekend only types. But two full time live aboards in side by side slips or even worse, sharing the same finger pier, can get very old very quickly...especially if privacy is high on your list of priorities. We arrived this year to discover that another sundeck boat of the same size as ours was to be parked next to us...full time live aboards....same pier. That meant that we'd be on the sundecks together, and that we'd block the sun and the sky from one another for the entire season...a permanent fiberglass canyon on the adjoining side...virtually living in the same space. We explained to the management that we much preferred transients parked next to us over another full time live aboard. Life for all of us improved considerably. We're still friends with our former slip mates, but all agree that a little less closeness is a good idea. Depends on your druthers, but this is something to take into consideration.
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Old 06-24-2013, 10:24 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by skidgear View Post
We've learned that it is important to have a clear understanding with marina management as to your personal lifestyle preferences. Our harbor master historically parked all "full time" slip boats in a group that was separate from transients. His thinking was that he would get less noise complaints as a result of party-hardy transient boaters. No problem with that if the full time slip occupants were weekend only types. But two full time live aboards in side by side slips or even worse, sharing the same finger pier, can get very old very quickly...especially if privacy is high on your list of priorities. We arrived this year to discover that another sundeck boat of the same size as ours was to be parked next to us...full time live aboards....same pier. That meant that we'd be on the sundecks together, and that we'd block the sun and the sky from one another for the entire season...a permanent fiberglass canyon on the adjoining side...virtually living in the same space. We explained to the management that we much preferred transients parked next to us over another full time live aboard. Life for all of us improved considerably. We're still friends with our former slip mates, but all agree that a little less closeness is a good idea. Depends on your druthers, but this is something to take into consideration.
Well spoken, sir! Highly accurate and correct- something many liveaboards never consider...
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Old 06-25-2013, 11:08 AM   #46
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I second Peter! The wife & I are in final stages of preparing to move aboard ours with the intent to cruise until we get bored of it. There are some great points raised here that I had not thought of concerning the liveaboard scene. I'm wondering with those who are living aboard and not cruising, are there preferences between a covered slip or not? Are those that are cruising keeping a "home" slip permanently available so to speak?

Regarding the magnificent ship that this thread has revolved around, I think Aronhk's estimate would be remarkably close to true value and "starting" repair reserves required. Unfortunately by the time you get everything done there will be little respite until you have to start all over again. I have quite a few battle scars from the wood boat era so I admit I'm probably a little jaded (OK maybe a lot jaded) but the beauty of this vessel is the only reason it exists today while thousands of others of similar construction, but less pretty, are long gone. It's her beauty which saves her but she is an evil temptress that will suck "breathtaking" amounts of money from your wallet to just keep her afloat let alone in bristol condition. I know nothing of composite boats built recently with today's space-age materials but back in the 1970's there was a lot of experimentation during the evolution from wood to glass in an attempt to marry the two materials. Most failed miserably. Fast forward 40 years and guess what, much of the serious expensive repairs in today's modern fiberglass boats involve ripping out rotted wood.

Time heals all wounds and with that poke in the eye to wood boats I confess I still to this day look over and drool over my neighbours boat with its magnificent teak decks and gleaming brightwork. My boat by comparison looks like a piece of tupperware.
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Old 06-25-2013, 08:13 PM   #47
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[QUOTE="Capt Kangeroo;164872"]It's her beauty which saves her but she is an evil temptress that will suck "breathtaking" amounts of money from your wallet to just keep her afloat let alone in bristol condition./QUOTE]

Wow. That's deep. Also sounds like my ex-wife.

These fingers which type the reply are linked to the same eyes that saw the real boat.

Yes, she's a beauty - an old girl who's seen better days. She needs a lot of love she does. Still, if the problems are limited to carpentry - I doubt it - this beauty could be restored.

Life is really, really short - and even more so for my gene pool. That's what makes this babe so attractive.

But sometimes wanting is better than having.

Sometimes
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Old 06-25-2013, 08:39 PM   #48
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Perhaps 60-70% of my dock mates are woodies and many of them look like furniture. A couple do not. It's those that do not that keep me from going down that route. FlyWright was my confidant when I was closing in on our purchase, he had to talk me back from the edge of wood boat ownership a couple times. They sure are tempting though.
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Old 06-26-2013, 10:00 AM   #49
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GOOD LORD MAN, SNAP OUT OF IT!
Hey Craig, If your anywhere close give Ben a slap. He's wood waffling! She's baiting the hook Ben. You have been up close and personal with her and she is whispering in your ear. She's saying "it's just a bit of carpentry Ben, I can be restored, life's short you deserve me, all your TF buddies will be green with envy.... think how proud you would be at my helm.... Thats it, you've had it Ben, get your wallet out there's no use fighting it.

Kidding aside, if you bought this for 40K, did cosmetic repairs only, then took it out and sunk it in 10 years your capital cost would only have been 4K a year. That is a fraction of what you would loose in depreciation on a new boat. If you stripped her and sold off all the equipment before you sunk it you could probably drop the capital cost to 2K per year. hmmmm.. where did you say this gorgeous vessel was located?
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Old 06-27-2013, 11:25 AM   #50
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The problem with doing as Cpt Kangaroo says and just investing $40,000 for a 10 yr period while accepting that she'll end up under water is.....

...without the maintenance and repairs it needs only someone omniscient could know when it will slip under the surface.
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Old 06-27-2013, 01:10 PM   #51
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I've owned two woodies and the fact is there are so many good epoxies that penetrate and seal wood that owning a wood boat now isn't the curse of death it used to be. Epoxy is 99.4% waterproof. Polyester resin is 87% waterproof. The University of Washington took a brand new 30' fiberglass boat and weighed it, then launched it for a year and weighed it again. The boat had gained 1000 pounds of water weight. They left it on the hard and in about 6 months it was back to the original weight.

If you are a DYI guy, there are lots of ways to fix wood permanently.
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Old 06-27-2013, 01:36 PM   #52
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I don't think I'd be as afraid of a wood boat. But when wood its 'glass over wood...
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Old 06-27-2013, 01:39 PM   #53
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I don't think I'd be as afraid of a wood boat. But when wood its 'glass over wood...

Couldn't agree more.
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Old 06-27-2013, 02:15 PM   #54
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modern strip planked, sheathed with epoxy and glass is a totally different animal than an ancient wood carvel/lapstrake boat with some glass over it to extend it's life.

Many multi-million dollar boats are constructed this way every year...
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Old 06-27-2013, 02:57 PM   #55
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I still wouldn't choose one. Theres a good reason that Chris Craft boats from the late 60's and early 70's are still around and many are in excellent condition...thick glass, and thick gel coats. No wood. Give me a Chris Craft Commander from that era any day and I'd be happy.

All wood kept well is a good choice, as long as the buyer knows what it takes to maintain it.

But any construction that has wood over glass offers water a place to collect (understand...this is my opinion only). The glass isn't structural...the wood is there for structural strength. I agree....a boat with glass applied over it to extend the life of the hull is nothing compared to a boat engineered well with the construction you mentioned. But still, I wouldn't choose it, because too many times I have seen what actually happens to those hulls over time.
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Old 06-27-2013, 05:08 PM   #56
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Kidding aside, if you bought this for 40K, did cosmetic repairs only, then took it out and sunk it in 10 years your capital cost would only have been 4K a year. That is a fraction of what you would loose in depreciation on a new boat. If you stripped her and sold off all the equipment before you sunk it you could probably drop the capital cost to 2K per year. hmmmm.. where did you say this gorgeous vessel was located?
I think like you do. I math it all out. But it's not 40K, it's 140K, but I would low ball. The man or estate will want to dump the boat. This is a fantasy scenario. We're going to buy a house in Wilmington. Keep our trawler at the local marina. I would live aboard rather quickly if my wife punched me to do it or I were single, but mama is looking at the "cute" old houses in town. And if mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy.

But she was willing to look, did so, and saw the same boat I did. Dang.
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Old 06-28-2013, 10:42 AM   #57
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I feel your pain Ben. I suppose the other thing one must consider is the costs of just keeping such a large boat, the hauling & slip fees for a 60+ would be brutal in many upscale marinas.

Incidentally, Wilmington is a nice place. I was fortunate for the opportunity as an unruly teenager to run rampant among the bars there for a short spell. The nightlife got old quickly but I never tired of the many great seafood restaurants. Certainly no shortage of quaint old houses for the wife to choose from.
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Old 06-28-2013, 09:18 PM   #58
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Boats love to be used daily. It's the boats that sit around NOT being used that have more problems.
I totally agree & mine hasn't been getting used enough this year. In a normal year I put on 100 to 130 hours, this year I've been helping a friend work on a boat he bought in MN. We've about got it ready to splash & make the 508 mile trip down the river, I did just finish getting my radar mounted & wired up, it works great. I've only been out twice this year probably less than 10 hours running time.
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Old 06-29-2013, 01:14 PM   #59
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I'd agree if a little used boat is also neglected from a maintenance perspective. But our boat (and every other one on the Great Lakes) typically sits unused for eight months through the winter season. For the past couple of years our boat has also spent a lot of time at the dock during the four month boating season. I have never, ever had a problem arising from limited usage. It always lights off at the first touch of the starter in the Spring, and all systems are just as I left them in terms of operating capability. Maintenance is the issue. I'd take a little used, but well maintained Great lakes boat in a heartbeat over one that has been around the loop three times.
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Old 07-01-2013, 10:11 AM   #60
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An interesting report I read by a marina owner in Washington was the opposite. He had owned the marina over 40 years and has boat owners who live in Chicago and other cities east. He said his locals who came down weekly or several times a month, started and ran their engines in the slip and other things on the boat vs. the back east owners who only came once a year and went on two week trips after cleaning the boats and provisioning, had absolutely no difference in mechanical failure or breakdowns. That was his observation after 40 years of ownership.

In my marina there was a boat that wasn't touched in 17 years, the new owner came in, new batteries, started the engine (it was a sail boat) and took it out with no problems other than clogged fuel filters. He ended up doing a fuel polishing, which BTW was 700 gallons (yes a huge sailboat square rigger three masts) and changed the oil.

I've seen it all. My personal habits is to run my boat as much as I can, however.
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