Heads Pong

[Comodave]

Yes, venting properly will remove the need for chemicals in the holding tank. In a previous boat we had a horrible smell from the holding tank. Tried a lot of different chemicals, no help. Installed a Groco Sweetank that pumps air into the tank and no more smell for the 8 more years we owned the boat without any chemicals at all.

 

[Riverguy]

Greetings,
Mr. R. REALLY old school is a well vented and aerated tank with NO need for any chemicals, environmentally friendly or not. NONE, NIL, NADA!

Sorry, but not in Florida where an untreated tank will smell up an entire marina in a week or so...

 

[Riverguy]

Yes, venting properly will remove the need for chemicals in the holding tank. In a previous boat we had a horrible smell from the holding tank. Tried a lot of different chemicals, no help. Installed a Groco Sweetank that pumps air into the tank and no more smell for the 8 more years we owned the boat without any chemicals at all.

In Michigan, maybe. In Florida...no way.


That said, the cost of the Groco Sweetank system is more than the cost of 10 years worth of Campa-Chem. And, for many of us (like in both our boats), there simply isn't access to get in there and install this thing.



https://www.groco.net/products/marine-sanitation/sweet-tank-odor-prevention


For the 95% of boaters who rely on chemical odor control, formaldehyde is still the answer.

 

[Bacchus]

My fish tank bubbler at about $30 works like a charm!
No formaldehyde for me.!

 

[Riverguy]

My fish tank bubbler at about $30 works like a charm!
No formaldehyde for me.!

Yep, I can believe that's true in upstate NY. Not in Florida though...

 

[Comodave]

Well the boat I was referring to was kept in Southern California. For most of the time it was in an area that was pretty hot. Maybe not quite as hot as Florida but pretty close.

 

[HeadMistress]

Yep, I can believe that's true in upstate NY. Not in Florida though...

It's true anywhere. Bio-physics 101: When organic matter (in this case sewage) breaks down in anaerobic (without oxygen) conditions, it generates hydrogen sulfide and sulfur dioxide (toxic and very smelly) gasses and methane, which is odorless but flammable. But when organic matter breaks down in aerobic (oxygenated) conditions it converts to CO2, which is odorless...Iow, aerobic conditions PREVENT odor from occurring. It's the reason stagnant ponds and swamps stink and running streams don't.

Which is why aeration works. However, it may not even be necessary to aerate the tank contents...in most cases just improving the ventilation to the tank, along with a tank product that works WITH nature is enough to do the job.

--Peggie
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't completely understand it yourself." --Albert Einstein

 

[Phil23]

Hi Peggie gonna haul that sucker out of the line tomorrow!!! BTW on the hull exterior I have a fine mesh grill over the intake Through hull about the size of a bathtub drain hole so should have stopped the ingress of live thingies so hoping it is stagnant water as a result of this one way valve.
Phil

 

[Comodave]

Yes on the boat I installed the Sweetank there was no way to either increase the size of the vent or add a second vent on the other side of the boat. On my next boat I replaced the entire head system and while doing it I put in 2 1” vents, one on each side of the boat and had no smell issues. So far on my current boat I have not had any smell issues but if I ever do then the Sweetank will go in promptly.

 

[Phil23]

Peggie tried to procure distilled vinegar to no avail up here a bit of a back water for some stuff, can I use ordinary white vinegar as a line flush??

 

[BruceK]

Peggie tried to procure distilled vinegar to no avail up here a bit of a back water for some stuff, can I use ordinary white vinegar as a line flush??

How about Italian balsamic vinegar, preferably from Modena?

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. R. We ARE in FL and have been for the last number of years! NO chemicals AND NO smells.

 

[Bacchus]

It's true anywhere. Bio-physics 101: When organic matter (in this case sewage) breaks down in anaerobic (without oxygen) conditions, it generates hydrogen sulfide and sulfur dioxide (toxic and very smelly) gasses and methane, which is odorless but flammable. But when organic matter breaks down in aerobic (oxygenated) conditions it converts to CO2, which is odorless...Iow, aerobic conditions PREVENT odor from occurring. It's the reason stagnant ponds and swamps stink and running streams don't.

Which is why aeration works. However, it may not even be necessary to aerate the tank contents...in most cases just improving the ventilation to the tank, along with a tank product that works WITH nature is enough to do the job.

--Peggie
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't completely understand it yourself." --Albert Einstein

As always... agree w Peggie
She's the basis for trying the DIY bubbler.
I have wondered if just injecting the air above the liquid would work just as well... why not if adequate venting works. I had a spare plugged drain low in the tank so opted to bubble it.
I have since (at fall haul out) finally installed a larger vent but it is fairly long and will experiment some to see if it alone is adequate or need the bubbler.
For anyone with inadequate venting having difficulty adding more or enlarging existing I'd encourage trying the bubbler approach... pretty EZ if you can get to any surface of the tank and can get minimal 12V power to the pump. I think draw is fractional amp.
Write up w details & picture on Bacchus website - Projects section.

 

[Bacchus]

Yep, I can believe that's true in upstate NY. Not in Florida though...

My thinking is similar to Peggie's that the biology applies everywhere... and in fact likely just works faster at elevated temps (like chemistry).
Result is either the beneficial (aerobic) or bad / smelly (anaerobic) process just works faster (but I'm no biologist so will defer to Peggie's knowledge... it's always been excellent).

 

[Sea Q]

Phil Johnston
at Loopy Kiwy product carries the Noflex digester and he is a wealth of knowledge in New Zealand

cjenergy@xtra.co.nz

 

[HeadMistress]

BTW on the hull exterior I have a fine mesh grill over the intake Through hull about the size of a bathtub drain hole so should have stopped the ingress of live thingies so hoping it is stagnant water as a result of this one way valve.
Phil

That will block animal and vegetable sea life, but sea water--especially in coastal waters--is full of bacteria and other micro-organisms that stink just as much when sea water sits in the intake line and pump. So get that check valve out of there!

Peggie tried to procure distilled vinegar to no avail up here a bit of a back water for some stuff, can I use ordinary white vinegar as a line flush??

"Ordinary" white vinegar IS distilled white vinegar...available in most grocery stores.

Bacchus, you're correct that all bacteria multiply faster in warm water than cold. They start to slow down at about 70 F, becoming increasingly sluggish as temperature drops...and become pretty much dormant at 40 (which is why I keep my refrigerators at 38 F...fresh produce, milk etc last MUCH longer).

--Peggie

 

[Phil23]

Peggie hauld that "sucker" out today and pumped 2 gallons/9 litres of distilled vinegar 50/50 with water throught the intake hose, let it sit for about 20 minutes and pumped through throughly will let you know how it goes in a week or so.
Kind regards
Phikl

 

[Phil23]

Thank you Sea Q

 

[NightCrawler]

+1 for NoFlex. Our vent line looks like a roller coaster at Six Flags. NoFlex keeps it all fresh.

 

[Auspicious]

Peggie tried to procure distilled vinegar to no avail up here a bit of a back water for some stuff, can I use ordinary white vinegar as a line flush??

"Ordinary" white vinegar IS distilled white vinegar...available in most grocery stores.

I haven't shopped in NZ but have no reason to think there are that many differences between what you have and the bits of the world I have shopped in. Ordinary white vinegar is cheap everywhere in 1 gallon or 4 or 5 liter jugs. Every boater should have two or three jugs as part of normal provisioning. It is the cleaner and degreaser of first resort for just about anything.



I always make sure we have plenty on board for deliveries and use it for a good scrub of the galley, including cookware, plates, bowls, cups, and flatware, the heads, mirrors, and anything else that won't just hose off. Sometimes a commercial product is in order (better living through chemistry!) but there is no reason to turn nuclear weapons on every little thing.


I'd like to add my voice to the others who have pointed to Peggie. Peggie Hall is truly one of the unsung heroes of the boating industry. Anyone who does not have a copy of her book should stop now and get one. Go ahead. We'll wait. ... Peggie built and ultimately sold a business based on this material and even after selling has hung around to help us all out of the goodness of her heart.



Love you Peggie,


dave

 

[GB3295]

Awesome book, every boat owner with some sort of toilet with tanks should have it! The Pong Bible!

 

[HeadMistress]

Awwwww...shucks, guys.

I have wondered if just injecting the air above the liquid would work just as well... why not if adequate venting works.

It's been done many times...just requires two vent lines--one with a fan in it that PULLS air through the tank. Success depends on the depth of the tank. If it's deeper than about 20", air above the surface can't reach contents below that depth very well...causing 'em turn anaerobic by necessity. Aeration is the only solution in deep tanks.


And btw, Phil...SeaQ is Dave Strank, CEO of Zaal Premium Products, who make No-Flex.

--Peggie

 

[OldDan1943]

Hmmmm, either AT (fresh water flush) has whipped the problem of I have gone "noise blind."
I am NOT bragging, that would break the magical spell. I am merely making an observation. SMILE

I never had a smell on my N46 (sea water flush) either.

No one ever complained. SHRUG Maybe they knew I will throw them over the side.

 

[Phil23]

HI peggie and team at this stage although it is early days I seem to have slain the dragon with the stinky breath!!.
Flushed raw water/salt water inlet hose out with copious amounts of white vinegar, as a "belt and braces" approach I have also installed a strainer at the passive end of the line.
I won't say I have created a rose garden but has absolutely no "PONG"/stink anymore on flushing.
I bow my head to Peggie thank you so much.

 

[greatpapabear]

You need a book by our esteemed member "The Headmistress",aka Peggie Hall, who knows about everything about boat dunnies(another Aussie word). She may chime in, otherwise,try searching.

Agreed. It's superb.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1892399784/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

[HeadMistress]

How about Italian balsamic vinegar, preferably from Modena?

Wonderful in marinades and salad dressings (spend the extra money for the best), but not in your sanitation plumbing because it's sticky...it'll trap every grain of salt and mineral that passes through your hoses instead of washing it out. Even cider isn't the best choice for the same reason, though not nearly so much as balsalmic.


A cupful--no more than two--of white vinegar flushed all the through the system once a week followed by a a quart of clean FRESH water after 45-60 minutes will prevent mineral buildup in the toilet discharge line. Do NOT leave vinegar sitting in the bowl...that will destroy your joker valve, 'cuz when soft rubber is left to sit and soak in vinegar, it swells and distorts.




--Peggie

 

[OldDan1943]

The problem I have with my VacuFlush is that bit gasket between the ball valve and the bowl. Sometimes the round toilet brush clears it, other time I must put on a rubber glove, get a green pad to clean and both the ball and the edges of the gasket. SHRUG

 

[HeadMistress]

And it's just gonna get worse if you keep using a toilet brush to clean it, 'cuz the bristles are scratching the rubber gasket and the ball. They're made to clean porcelain, not rubber and plastic. Depending on how long you've been using it, replacing the gasket--and maybe the ball too if it's collecting waste. Use a bit more water when you flush...clean a little more often using a glove, dishwashing liquid (Dawn) and material that can't scratch anything...maybe a Scotchbrite pad A regular application of little veggie oil on the gasket should help prevent the buildup.


--Peggie

 

[OldDan1943]

And it's just gonna get worse if you keep using a toilet brush to clean it, 'cuz the bristles are scratching the rubber gasket and the ball. They're made to clean porcelain, not rubber and plastic. Depending on how long you've been using it, replacing the gasket--and maybe the ball too if it's collecting waste. Use a bit more water when you flush...clean a little more often using a glove, dishwashing liquid (Dawn) and material that can't scratch anything...maybe a Scotchbrite pad A regular application of little veggie oil on the gasket should help prevent the buildup.
--Peggie

Thanks Peggie. I'll give it a shot of veggie oil.
I've been using the green ScotchPad and vinegar
Maybe it is time to change the ball.

 

[Benchmark]

As a recent convert to Zall NoFlex, I can attest to it's effectiveness in odor control. Reading the Material Data Safety Sheet, it is mostly composed of Hydrogen Peroxide, H2O2......basically water with extra oxygen. Holding tanks have 2 types of narurally occuring bacteria....anaerobic and aerobic. The anaerobic type does not need oxygen to thrive.....in digesting tank contents, they produce sulphur dioxide.....the stinky smell we dislike. Aerobic bacteria need oxygen to live, and their byproduct is carbon dioxide, which is odorless. So.....the way NoFlex works is by boosting the aerobic bacteria, which eventually overwhelm the anaerobic.

All that being said, you may want to first change your water feed to the head to fresh water, even for a test period to confirm the source cause of the pong.