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Old 07-28-2014, 09:10 AM   #61
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Search the mfg literature before purchase to find out what is required to winterize the unit .

Some might be easier than others.

The most modern clothes washers and dish washers have computers that might not like an inverter , and most require a very long time for the operation.

The computer boards on the clothes washers and dish washers are sensitive to inverters. This is not only an issue for modified versus true sine wave but the true sine wave output of the various models of the same manufacturer. If possible try to find another boater who has run the intended dish washer off the same model inverter you have. Of specific concern is the peak power needed to start the motors on the clothes and dish washers. This peak power requirement may be multiples of the rated wattage for the unit.
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Old 07-28-2014, 10:52 AM   #62
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Search the mfg literature before purchase to find out what is required to winterize the unit .

Some might be easier than others.

The most modern clothes washers and dish washers have computers that might not like an inverter , and most require a very long time for the operation.
A pure sine wave inverter will run a washer or anything else just fine.

If I had a dishwasher I would probably not run it off of the inverter though. The reason is simply that it, along with the hot water it uses are fairly high energy loads. Because of this I prefer to manage these types of loads by running from generator power.
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Old 07-28-2014, 01:25 PM   #63
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A pure sine wave inverter will run a washer or anything else just fine.

Be careful, the "pure sine wave" converters do have a variance in both the sine wave and the "peak" power. This has been a problem for certain units with computer control boards. The inverters do not duplicate the power coming from a generator or a utility company.
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Old 07-29-2014, 06:16 AM   #64
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>The inverters do not duplicate the power coming from a generator or a utility company.<

Just as tiny noisemakers (under about 10KW) do not duplicate shore power.
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Old 07-29-2014, 07:07 AM   #65
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No problem running our dishwasher while underway off the 3kW inverter. I let the alts come out of Bulk charge mode first though.
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Old 07-29-2014, 07:55 AM   #66
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Be careful, the "pure sine wave" converters do have a variance in both the sine wave and the "peak" power. This has been a problem for certain units with computer control boards. The inverters do not duplicate the power coming from a generator or a utility company.
In what way does a properly sized sine wave inverter not duplicate the power coming from a generator or a utility company?
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Old 07-29-2014, 08:51 AM   #67
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Unfortunately, I am not an electrical engineer to be able to explain it. When I went through this with my clothes washer and inverter, I was shown screen shots of the wave pattern from an oscilloscope. The wave pattern had differences from a comparison to the wave pattern from an utility. One solution to the wave pattern (not the peak power issue) is to use a run capacitor.
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Old 07-29-2014, 09:29 AM   #68
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A couple of things --

Many houses and buildings are off the grid using inverters to convert stored energy to normal uses including dishwashers, washers, dryers etc. Living in AZ shows a plethora of solar based companies supplying parts and pieces for this endeavor. Twisted on this Forum has provided some information on how he does it. I could easily go off the grid where we live, just too much capital to justify it but not uncommon in our area.

Nordhavns made during the past decade are standard with grey water tanks as their vessels routinely travel to areas where grey water discharge is not permitted. Ditto other yacht builders. Washers and dishwashers use soaps that are not always Eco friendly. With many yacht basins and marinas having little flushing capacity, it makes sense to regulate grey water. It is not politics, it is good sense. I am reminded of this every time I clean out the shower sump.
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Old 07-29-2014, 09:52 AM   #69
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I can agree to gray water holding the very minute every road, parking lot, roof etc...that surface drains into those sale waters is collected and properly disposed of.

Where I boat in the summer, the sheer numder of bathers, tubers, skiers, kneeboarders, windsurfers, small boaters who hop over the side, ad nauseum so clearly outweigh the boat gray water that it's mind boggling. Their body oils, effluent, suntan oils, har stuff, etc...etc probably creates a bigger slick than if I drained my oil straight into the water.

All that said...I try to be eco friendly...as I was at an environmental school and stuying the environment back in the mid-70's. Reality just caght up sooner or later. I would gladly pay for every marina to have pumpout at every slip...easily done compared to the required installed fuel systems many have.

But until all of it is reasonably regulated and everyone complies to even the most basic levels...even many small confined water areas are less threatened from boaters that the rest.
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Old 07-29-2014, 09:58 AM   #70
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I can agree to gray water holding the very minute every road, parking lot, roof etc...that surface drains into those sale waters is collected and properly disposed of.

Where I boat in the summer, the sheer numder of bathers, tubers, skiers, kneeboarders, windsurfers, small boaters who hop over the side, ad nauseum so clearly outweigh the boat gray water that it's mind boggling. Their body oils, effluent, suntan oils, har stuff, etc...etc probably creates a bigger slick than if I drained my oil straight into the water.

All that said...I try to be eco friendly...as I was at an environmental school and stuying the environment back in the mid-70's. Reality just caght up sooner or later. I would gladly pay for every marina to have pumpout at every slip...easily done compared to the required installed fuel systems many have.

But until all of it is reasonably regulated and everyone complies to even the most basic levels...even many small confined water areas are less threatened from boaters that the rest.

great post!
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Old 07-29-2014, 11:00 AM   #71
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At one point the federal government was going to require all boaters to get a permit for rainwater that landed on our boats and drained into the waterways.

BoatUS stepped in and helped squash that brilliant idea.

With people washing their boats while in the water, why single out "grey" water for regulation or containment? Is anyone suggesting we have our boats hauled just to wash them?

There are far too many government regulations as it is. Let's not ask for more.
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Old 07-29-2014, 12:46 PM   #72
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What would you pick? Cambria Lady
That is a silly question with an easy answer, it would depend on the man and if he was willing to do his own dishes.
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Old 07-29-2014, 07:37 PM   #73
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Never occurred to us to put the DW on the inverter, for the simple reason that we like the heated dry function. None of our wide variety of "computerized" stuff that was hooked to the magnum MS4024 inverter ever had a problem. Not to say someone elses might not.

A good less than 10kw generator puts out very nice utility grade power. My experience is with a 9kw Kohler on a Mainship and a small 5kw Northern Lights on a GB. If you are paranoid, power conditioning equipment is available.
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Old 07-29-2014, 07:51 PM   #74
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Unfortunately, I am not an electrical engineer to be able to explain it. When I went through this with my clothes washer and inverter, I was shown screen shots of the wave pattern from an oscilloscope. The wave pattern had differences from a comparison to the wave pattern from an utility. One solution to the wave pattern (not the peak power issue) is to use a run capacitor.
A sine wave is a sine wave. If what you were shown was not a sine wave then it was not the output of a sine wave inverter.
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Old 07-29-2014, 09:27 PM   #75
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A sine wave is a sine wave. If what you were shown was not a sine wave then it was not the output of a sine wave inverter.
Well, not exactly Ron. Last February and onward Marty posted a long series of articles on T&T about the issues he had getting a Magnum inverter (a smaller version of mine, but the same sort of circuitry) to interact with his Splendide washer dryer. You could go back to the archives there; a long list of posts including these:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/trawlers-and-trawlering/magnum$20splendide/trawlers-and-trawlering/Jd7Jlq3ylTg/vN9DX9cysM8J

The Magnum puts out a beautiful sinewave, normally, but it did not like the Splendide. I am over summarizing it.

Correction, I guess it was Al Thomason's thread, could have sworn Marty was involved along the way.
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Old 07-29-2014, 11:30 PM   #76
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The Magnum puts out a beautiful sinewave, normally, but it did not like the Splendide. I am over summarizing it.

Correction, I guess it was Al Thomason's thread, could have sworn Marty was involved along the way.
Actually both Al and I had the same problem. Al was able to correct his issue with the "sine" wave from the Magnum with a run capacitor. I corrected it with a change in models from Magnum (complements of Magnum). Other brands of inverters were able to run the washer dryer. Al posted photos of the readings from the inverter.
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Old 07-30-2014, 07:57 AM   #77
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If a manufacturer describes their inverter as a "sine wave" output and it is not, that's false advertising or fraud. The term "sine wave" describes a particular waveform. If the output does not match that waveform, it is not a sine wave. You can several find pages of descriptions of a sine wave with a web search.

If one model from the manufacturer did not operate the product and the next one did, there was a problem with the first one. Perhaps at an extreme load the inverter could not produce a true sine wave. Or the output voltage dropped.
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Old 07-30-2014, 08:29 AM   #78
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Ron

I think you have addressed a real issue. Inverters are sold as either modified or true sine wave. From what I have been led to believe the true sine wave inverters vary from the engineering standard slightly but are still sold as true sine wave. I could be wrong. And I admit to having no engineering experience.
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Old 07-30-2014, 09:15 AM   #79
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PSneedl.....You nailed it. Here in Stewart Fl some of the most beautiful coastal areas in the USA is at risk because of pollution benefiting a handful of sugar plantation barons, Barrons that are not even cooperative in correcting, all the while lined up at the federal agriculture subsidy gravy train. The effulant from Lake Ochoachobee (or however ya spell it) is ruining the Indian River system. Also a big factor is the tens of thousands of septic tanks along the system. AND we worry about grey water from small boats. Kindda like stomping piss ants in the middle of an elephant stampede.
Why you ask.....could it be....maybe because of the lobbying power and the prior purchase of elected officals....Naaah that could not be it. Could the fact if those tens of thousands of septic systems are brought to heel the the voters in the area will revolt...perhaps.
I do not think I will hang my hat on the pollution problems being fixed by heavy handed over regulation of small boats just yet.
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Old 07-30-2014, 10:39 AM   #80
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Ron

I think you have addressed a real issue. Inverters are sold as either modified or true sine wave. From what I have been led to believe the true sine wave inverters vary from the engineering standard slightly but are still sold as true sine wave. I could be wrong. And I admit to having no engineering experience.
Reading just a bit from the link above, it appears that the reactive load is affecting the output waveform of the inverter. I would call that a defect in the design or the inverter. The manufacturer should consider what the consumer might choose to power from the inverter and either design it to handle those loads or warn the potential buyer what cannot be powered by it.
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