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Old 10-05-2012, 09:30 PM   #21
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Just installed a Wallas 40DT and the fuel pump ticking noise is easily cancelled by any airflow noise (intake or heated)...you would have to have your pillow on it to hear it...

Another vote for a Wallas forced air heater and their design...though I wanted a boiler setup....I couldn't justify the expense (probably easily over $7000 while the Wallace was a little over $3000.)
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Old 10-06-2012, 11:40 AM   #22
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Comparing a 10,000 btu system to a 100,000 btu thats one of our exchangers?

To be clear I am discribing the Webasto 2010 and 2020 which are the size required and recommended for live aboard 24/7. An air system will not provide enough btu, unless multi units are used. So make sure you are comparing like bto system and/or model.
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Old 10-06-2012, 03:46 PM   #23
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Comparing a 10,000 btu system to a 100,000 btu thats one of our exchangers?

To be clear I am discribing the Webasto 2010 and 2020 which are the size required and recommended for live aboard 24/7. An air system will not provide enough btu, unless multi units are used. So make sure you are comparing like bto system and/or model.
I ended up with three smaller air furnaces. Two Wallas 30DT units and one 22DT. We have a total of 27K BTU of capacity, and that provides more than enough heat for our 47' pilothouse.

I really don't see an issue with using dedicated smaller furnaces to heat specific areas on the boat.

One could make an argument that this type of system costs more in maintenance, that might be true. On the flip side if any of my three furnaces goes out the entire boat is not cold.

Using this approach allows us to zone our heat, much like a boiler system, but without the short cycling that a large boiler does during "cool" weather, vs "cold" weather.
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Old 10-06-2012, 07:43 PM   #24
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The link below for the Dashew fpb64 heating system might be off interest. They went for the Kabola heating system

http://setsail.com/domestic-heating-hot-water/
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Old 10-06-2012, 11:12 PM   #25
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The link below for the Dashew fpb64 heating system might be off interest. They went for the Kabola heating system

SetSail Ľ Blog Archive Ľ Domestic Heating & Hot Water
What I'm taking from this is,


Webasto,
  • needs regular maintenance
  • Requires less space
Kabola,
  • runs cleaner and therefore needs less maintenance
  • requires more real estate for installation
  • is more costly
I can see where the Webasto could be installed on Play d'eau, but can't see where the Kabola could go.

However, this is where I start asking the UK suppliers, so let's see where this goes.

Thanks for all the help. So appreciated.

Piers and Lin
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Old 10-07-2012, 01:54 AM   #26
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I just installed a Webasto hydronic diesel furnace. I had it professionally installed by a gentleman in the Vancouver area that has been doing it for 35 years. He did an awesome job. It was 10k well spent. I helped a bit, but he did 90% of it. It took him about 30-35 hours.

I don't find the unit noisy, as my engine room is well insulated. The is some noise on the outside of the boat from the exhaust, but cruising at times where you need it, most other boats are making the same noise anyways.

I have two zones as my salon and cabins are well separated by the raised pilothouse. I will probably have the unit serviced every two years, as I am not a liveaboard. I chose Webasto after months of research, speaking with many other PNW boaters and based on the fact I had an installer I was confident in based on price and recommended performance. I think in the end however, any diesel heat is better than no heat if you want to extend your boating season.
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Old 10-07-2012, 11:45 AM   #27
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To clarify a couple of things.

No matter what system we would have I would have it service each year. So the Webasto prbable needs no more sericing than othere brands.

The Webosto burns very clean, no soot or fumes. Most years the service was a inspection and brushing/vacumm of the burn tube.

We have a Ever Hot water heater for an unlimited supply of hot water. There is a 3way valve so only the ever hot is heated.

So I hope I did not give the wrong impression.
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Old 10-07-2012, 02:36 PM   #28
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For a cruiser that is small or where REAL -10F winter is contemplated a system that uses zero electric would still be first choice.

When a severe storm hits the Marina is way way down on the totem pole of power restoration.

Have a fortnight of batterys ?
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Old 10-07-2012, 06:37 PM   #29
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For a cruiser that is small or where REAL -10F winter is contemplated a system that uses zero electric would still be first choice.

When a severe storm hits the Marina is way way down on the totem pole of power restoration.

Have a fortnight of batterys ?

If the shore power goes out, why not just start the generator.
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Old 10-08-2012, 06:13 AM   #30
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"If the shore power goes out, why not just start the generator."

Depending on weather the noisemaker intake is low enough in the hull to not be ice blocked, it might work , IF you have the fuel..

IN the NY area (not very cold) I have had 10 inches of ice some winters.

Where is your intake?
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Old 10-08-2012, 07:32 AM   #31
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"If the shore power goes out, why not just start the generator."

Depending on weather the noisemaker intake is low enough in the hull to not be ice blocked, it might work , IF you have the fuel..

IN the NY area (not very cold) I have had 10 inches of ice some winters.

Where is your intake?
I live in Alaska and keep the boat in salt water.

We get sometimes a couple of inches of ice for short periods of time. Mostly rain that hasn't mixed yet.

While I agree with your previously posted concept that the best heating system does not require electricity, it is just not practical for most recreational boats. Many of the installations look for lack of a better word "jethro". .

The reality is that for most, no almost all of us, a permenantly mounted, functional diesel generator is part of our boat, and is always available if need be.

Fuel is the same issue. My generator burns something around 8-10 gallons of diesel per day if run 24x7. If you're on the boat keeping it warm you could run the generator less than 1/2 that time to avoid having to re-winterize it. Even at 10 GPD I could go a very long time with the fuel onboard. A week or two which is the Maximum you'll see a power outage and then only rarely would be a complete non issue to all but the most unprepared person who is staying on their boat.
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Old 10-08-2012, 11:37 AM   #32
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We have gone for several weeks with below freezing temps with out AC power, water, sanitation pump out, the marina frozen over, and several inches of snow. The Webasto uses an average 20 amps DC, with a house bank of 600 ah, we can/could make it though the night, and we carry about 600 gallons of diesel. Running the gen several time per day, during that time, I gang charged the batteries, in that each house battery has its own 60+ charger, so by the time we go to bed the batteries are fully charged for the night.

The only AC we used during that time is the micro wave, and TV/entertainment as the Webasto also heats the hot water. We hold 400 gallons of water, and during that time we use the marina facilities so the 45 gallons holding tank lasts. We could go for over a month, with little discomfort. If a person makes it though the first year or two, then they know what to expect and prepare for it. Itís the first year newbies that the boat and/or they are not prepared that get surprised and/or move off the boat. We move off the boat the first couple of years drung the temps dropped below freezing.

So what ever heating system you install make sure parts and service are available in your area, and/or have spare parts on board.

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Old 10-08-2012, 12:14 PM   #33
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We have gone for several weeks with below freezing temps with out AC power, water, sanitation pump out, the marina frozen over, and several inches of snow. The Webasto uses an average 20 amps DC, with a house bank of 600 ah, we can/could make it though the night, and we carry about 600 gallons of diesel. Running the gen several time per day, during that time, I gang charged the batteries, in that each house battery has its own 60+ charger, so by the time we go to bed the batteries are fully charged for the night.

The only AC we used during that time is the micro wave, and TV/entertainment as the Webasto also heats the hot water. We hold 400 gallons of water, and during that time we use the marina facilities so the 45 gallons holding tank lasts. We could go for over a month, with little discomfort. If a person makes it though the first year or two, then they know what to expect and prepare for it. Itís the first year newbies that the boat and/or they are not prepared that get surprised and/or move off the boat. We move off the boat the first couple of years drung the temps dropped below freezing.

So what ever heating system you install make sure parts and service are available in your area, and/or have spare parts on board.
Phil, are you sure about the 20 amps @ 24v? That seems awfully high. Our 65,000 btu Kabola uses less than 7.
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Old 10-08-2012, 12:40 PM   #34
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Phil, are you sure about the 20 amps @ 24v? That seems awfully high. Our 65,000 btu Kabola uses less than 7.
No - 12 volts. We only have 12 volts on the boat.
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Old 10-09-2012, 06:01 AM   #35
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The smaller boat (say under 40 ft) can be heated with one of the Dickinson ranges.

They will run without electric and do a fine job of cooking and baking.

In summers a stove top camping stove can be used for a quick breakfast , tho turning the Dickinson on is easy , its 15 min before it is up to heat.

The Dickinson is about 20,000 BTU or at least 3 , perhaps 4, 1500w electric heaters.

IF the boat will stay liveable at low temperatures , adding electric , that may not always work is fine.

Folks that want to contemplate a live aboard in real winter might contemplate a co generation setup.

The heating water could come from a furnace OR from the noisemaker OR both..

With keel cooling it would only be a couple of valves to throw .

A number of mfg sell fans that will circulate heat , powered from sitting on a hot surface .
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Old 10-11-2012, 02:18 AM   #36
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Dickinson stoves can be purchased or retrofit with a water coil heater as well. I don't have one yet, but it is on the list...
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Old 10-12-2012, 06:29 AM   #37
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"Dickinson stoves can be purchased or retrofit with a water coil heater as well."

The problem is older Dickinson use copper for the coils 1 or 2 or 7 turns .

The 1 or 2 were for heating domestic hot water in a usually overhead tank.

The 7 turn was installed in the Antartic to use for hydronic heat.

With copper the entire system must be operating for the heater to function.

For a while they use a SS coil which could operate sans water.

No idea what is installed today.

On out 90/90 we were able to install hydronic heat by carefully running of all the piping with a slope and using sweeps , not elbows at any turns.

The 7 turn coil heats 8 ft in the engine space and 16 ft of 3/4 baseboard heat in a fwd cabin. The circ temp is a constant 135F during most any winter weather.

The heater output is manually set , but that's the price of a no electric all gravity heating system.

In a vessel with WT doors and 4 compartment subdivision it was a good solution.
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Old 10-12-2012, 09:36 AM   #38
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Greatpapabear

It is all about teh quality of the install and materials used, on your lovely vessel especially. A correctly installed Kabola or Hurricane would be my choice. This is based upon my experience in the PNW. Don't go cheap, Wallis, Dickenson or forced air. Stick with a hydronic unit located where Fleming normally places them and probably 5 zones using Real brand HX/fan units. I suggest Fleming owners and installers as your best bet for advice, Contact Tony, he'll give you some good advice too.
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Old 10-12-2012, 10:14 AM   #39
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Going forced air for many isn't the "cheap" way to go...the engineering on some of the "cheap" products you mentioned is pretty refined....it was the "practical" way to go fo some of us.

Different needs for different folks...
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Old 10-12-2012, 12:03 PM   #40
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psneeld

I did not mean to imply forced air was cheap. I had an "or" in my sentence which was easy enough to overlook.

In my vessel, forced air would have been almost the same $$ as the Hurricane hydronic system. The Hurricane ITR HXs are pure junk - two of my 5 units having cratered and leaked badly and all the others having a leak prone copper tube to hose connection without "expander" ring- I (and others)have switched to Real HXs.

Two other nice things about hydronic systems, if you are in cooler climates, are:
  1. You can route the hose/pipes through the bottom of closets, drawers, storage areas, bilges and other nooks and crannies to provide passive heat where it helps to keep things dry. Not unlike many homes where hydronic heat is utilized.
  2. With the diesel boiler off and engine(s) running, engine coolant can be tapped to heat the hydronic system. For WA, BC and Alaska cruising throughout the year (yes, 12/24/7) this really is a nice feature.
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