Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 09-02-2015, 05:00 PM   #41
Senior Member
 
BrianSmith's Avatar
 
City: Wherever Smartini is
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Smartini
Vessel Model: 2002 Kristen 52' Flybridge Trawler
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry M View Post
Brian: Maybe I missed it but what's your budget complete? (water maker, solar, etc.)
Larry,

No, you didn't miss it - I didn't post it yet. My bad - it's a pretty important part of the equation!

It's going to be very hard to justify more than $400K, all in, for something we don't expect to own for more than 3 years. We'd love to find something for less than $300K that doesn't need more than about $50K in repairs and upgrades.

Hope that helps.
__________________
Advertisement

BrianSmith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2015, 05:02 PM   #42
Senior Member
 
BrianSmith's Avatar
 
City: Wherever Smartini is
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Smartini
Vessel Model: 2002 Kristen 52' Flybridge Trawler
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by angus99 View Post
A Defever 49 (or 44 +5) cockpit motor yacht also would seem to meet many of your criteria. Huge outdoor spaces, full master stateroom, cockpit for fishing/snorkling etc., spacious ER and often more affordable than a KK of similar size.
We've looked at one, and everything you say is true. The interior living space seemed a bit limited for a full time home... but I have a feeling we'll look at one again, and re-evaluate that.
__________________

BrianSmith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2015, 05:08 PM   #43
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 13,111
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianSmith View Post
Based on another thread here on TF, I ordered it two days ago!
Wifey B: And only $9.99 on Kindle or $26.96 on tree.

Or $159.37 - $722.67 Spiral Bound.
BandB is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2015, 11:43 PM   #44
Senior Member
 
IntervaleII's Avatar
 
City: Tokyo, Japan / Tampa, Florida / Washington, Virginia
Country: Japan / United States
Vessel Name: Mondai Nai
Vessel Model: Nordhaven 55 - 45
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 271
Send a message via Skype™ to IntervaleII
A Hatteras 48LRC would work great, done it many times. Has great range and blue water capabilities. Can get a up dated one for under $300,000.


Sent from my iPad using Trawler Forum
Capt. Don
IntervaleII is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2015, 12:14 AM   #45
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 13,111
Quote:
Originally Posted by IntervaleII View Post
A Hatteras 48LRC would work great, done it many times. Has great range and blue water capabilities. Can get a up dated one for under $300,000.


Sent from my iPad using Trawler Forum
Capt. Don
Any Hatteras would do it well.
BandB is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2015, 01:58 PM   #46
Dauntless Award
 
Wxx3's Avatar
 
City: New York, NY
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Dauntless
Vessel Model: Kadey Krogen 42 - 148
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,312
Kevin gave some good advice.
What about a boat like his?

Also, my strong recommendation would be to find the boat with virtually everything you need on it already.

The more the PO used the boat as you intend to use it, the less costly it will be to make it do what you want it to do.
__________________
M/Y Dauntless, New York
a Kadey Krogen 42 Currently https://share.delorme.com/dauntless
Blog: https://dauntlessatsea.com
Find us: https://share.delorme.com/dauntless
Wxx3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2015, 10:20 AM   #47
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,515
"lso, my strong recommendation would be to find the boat with virtually everything you need on it already.

The more the PO used the boat as you intend to use it, the less costly it will be to make it do what you want it to do."

SPOT ON!!


It takes huge time , bucks and effort to take a marina spec boat and use it as an extended cruiser (no marina for most time , )

The boats will be outfitted totally different.

For an inshore cruiser with no expectation for weeks on the hook , its a lot less costly conversion.
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2015, 10:10 AM   #48
Senior Member
 
BrianSmith's Avatar
 
City: Wherever Smartini is
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Smartini
Vessel Model: 2002 Kristen 52' Flybridge Trawler
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by BandB View Post
Any Hatteras would do it well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IntervaleII View Post
A Hatteras 48LRC would work great, done it many times. Has great range and blue water capabilities. Can get a up dated one for under $300,000.

Capt. Don
We have looked at many Hatterases (Hatteri?) online, and we like a lot about them. However, most of them seem to have really big engines - 500HP each, up to 850HP each, most of them turbocharged. They're obviously outfitted that way so that you can get up and go (most advertise cruise speeds in the low to mid teens, and top speeds in the upper teens), but we're just not interested in going fast, because of the fuel cost. (On a very long journey like we're planning, the difference between .3 nmpg and .9 nmpg will result in a much, much larger expenditure for fuel over the life of the journey - tens of thousands of dollars.)

Of course, you can run any boat at idle, or just above that, to keep speeds down, but that can't be good for a diesel engine - to run it so slow for so much of the time. And I doubt the fuel economy at that really low speed is going to be all that great, as that's just not the RPM range those big turbocharged motors are designed to run at. (I recent read that most diesels are most fuel efficient at about 80% of the RPM at which they make their maximum HP. I'm assuming that's at least in the ballpark?)

I'd love to get input from anyone who has experience with a pair of big, turbocharged engines, and also a concern for fuel economy. How do you balance those two? Or do you?
BrianSmith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2015, 10:33 AM   #49
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 13,111
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianSmith View Post
We have looked at many Hatterases (Hatteri?) online, and we like a lot about them. However, most of them seem to have really big engines - 500HP each, up to 850HP each, most of them turbocharged. They're obviously outfitted that way so that you can get up and go (most advertise cruise speeds in the low to mid teens, and top speeds in the upper teens), but we're just not interested in going fast, because of the fuel cost. (On a very long journey like we're planning, the difference between .3 nmpg and .9 nmpg will result in a much, much larger expenditure for fuel over the life of the journey - tens of thousands of dollars.)

Of course, you can run any boat at idle, or just above that, to keep speeds down, but that can't be good for a diesel engine - to run it so slow for so much of the time. And I doubt the fuel economy at that really low speed is going to be all that great, as that's just not the RPM range those big turbocharged motors are designed to run at. (I recent read that most diesels are most fuel efficient at about 80% of the RPM at which they make their maximum HP. I'm assuming that's at least in the ballpark?)

I'd love to get input from anyone who has experience with a pair of big, turbocharged engines, and also a concern for fuel economy. How do you balance those two? Or do you?
Well, at Hatteras 60 with twin 1135's will get 0.83 nmpg at 10 knots, 1.2 nmpg at 7 knots. As to running it at that speed, most would recommend speeding up at least a couple of times a day. With small hp engines like 500 or 850 it will be even better. Then there are the times you'll be very happy you have the extra speed available. Now, will they ever quite get the economy of a full displacement hull with a 120 hp single? No. But they can be reasonably economic.

Fuel is only one aspect of economic. Keep that in mind. A relatively small part of it for most users.

Now many of the other boats mentioned would be excellent, from the Defever's to the KK's. You are right that compared to the Hatteras they tend to have less living space but still good space. Probably more than you want to pay but a Fleming 55 would be great.

On the other hand a GB in the 50' range would handle things well. Not as well as a Nordhavn in the same size, but well enough for the purposes of most cruising those areas.
BandB is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2015, 10:40 AM   #50
Guru
 
City: Satsuma FL
Country: United States
Vessel Name: No Mo Trawla
Vessel Model: Hurricane SS188
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,672
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianSmith View Post
We have looked at many Hatterases (Hatteri?) online, and we like a lot about them. However, most of them seem to have really big engines - 500HP each, up to 850HP each, most of them turbocharged.
Limit your search to the Long Range Cruiser (LRC) version of the Hat. They will typically have smaller HP engines and greater fuel capacity.
Donsan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2015, 10:46 AM   #51
Senior Member
 
BrianSmith's Avatar
 
City: Wherever Smartini is
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Smartini
Vessel Model: 2002 Kristen 52' Flybridge Trawler
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by ragin cajun View Post
You might have this already but I would highly recommend "Gentleman's Guide to Passages South". This book will give you information on distances between islands as well as prevailing sea conditions for each time of year. Available anchorages through out the islands, etc. This book can really help define the boat you need for this adventure. Sailors can be your best friend and source of info in doing the Caribbean loop, they been doing it for generations in relatively smaller vessels than what you have in mind.
I've been reading this for about a week, and while there is certainly a lot of good information in it, here's what I'm finding:

1. Unless you are a pretty experienced sailor (i.e., sail boats), you practically need an interpreter to understand a lot of what he writes, because of all the jargon. (I'm not, so I'm sure I'm missing may of his points, because I don't know the sailing jargon.)

2. His writing style seems more conversational than instructional. Many, many places where he describes a situation he's been in, but doesn't explicitly tell you the lesson he's trying to get across, so again, I'm left guessing.

3. Although he switched from sails to diesel in the latter part of his cruising, it seems as though he wrote the book while still sailing, so the vast majority of it is sailing-specific. (Yes, I know the wind affects all boats, but it affects trawlers and motor yachts very differently than it does sailboats that are trying not to use their motors very much.)

4. Finally, the edition I have, which is the last one, I think (10th Edition) was published in 2012, which means it was probably written in 2011. So I wonder about some of the location-specific info, about Customs and marinas and such - are they still accurate?

There's enough in it to be useful, for sure - but I'm not sure how useful it will be in helping us decide what kind of boat we should buy, since it's NOT going to be a sailboat.
BrianSmith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2015, 10:58 AM   #52
Senior Member
 
BrianSmith's Avatar
 
City: Wherever Smartini is
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Smartini
Vessel Model: 2002 Kristen 52' Flybridge Trawler
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wxx3 View Post
Kevin gave some good advice.
What about a boat like his?
I just looked at several on Yachtworld. Nice layout (for our purposes), but:
- Looks like the engines are accessed by lifting the salon floor, with practically no space above them once you'r down there. That's what we have now, and I really want more engine room than that. I'll be doing every bit of work I'm capable of, and I want some room in which to operate.
- At 30,000 lbs for a 48' boat, it seems a little light for a "blue water" boat - doesn't it? Might it not get tossed about pretty badly in the 4' - 5' seas that, despite all efforts to avoid, I'm sure we'll find ourselves in from time to time?
- No offense to Kevin or anyone else intended, but as long as I've been around boats, I've always heard Bayliners described as "entry level" and "production boats", with fit and finish, construction methods, and materials that just aren't up to, say, a Hatteras or Defever. Is that reputation unfair? I really have no idea - I've never owned one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wxx3 View Post
Also, my strong recommendation would be to find the boat with virtually everything you need on it already. The more the PO used the boat as you intend to use it, the less costly it will be to make it do what you want it to do.
Amen to that! The more a boat is equipped the way we want it, the higher it ranks on our list of boats to seriously consider.
BrianSmith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2015, 11:16 AM   #53
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Country: usa
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,360
Brian

Seems like you are on the right track. Suggest you avoid vessels with DD 2 cycles that are in the 400+ HP range, as you say you just don't need that HP and possible issues that could arise from idling along at 7 or 8 knots. The DD 4-53s are generally good motors but like the Lehmans, old. This is a great time and opportunity for you to get something newer with current century engines.
sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2015, 11:17 AM   #54
Senior Member
 
BrianSmith's Avatar
 
City: Wherever Smartini is
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Smartini
Vessel Model: 2002 Kristen 52' Flybridge Trawler
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by BandB View Post
Well, at Hatteras 60 with twin 1135's will get 0.83 nmpg at 10 knots, 1.2 nmpg at 7 knots. As to running it at that speed, most would recommend speeding up at least a couple of times a day. With small hp engines like 500 or 850 it will be even better. Then there are the times you'll be very happy you have the extra speed available. Now, will they ever quite get the economy of a full displacement hull with a 120 hp single? No. But they can be reasonably economic.
If that's true, then that's OK. I'm not expecting to get 2 nmpg - but I sure don't want to get .5, either. Anything in the neighborhood of 1.0 at 7 - 8 kts is going to get serious consideration. As long as running at that speed isn't going to increase the maintenance costs of the engines, or seriously shorten their life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wxx3 View Post
Fuel is only one aspect of economic. Keep that in mind. A relatively small part of it for most users.
I'm sure there are other things that are more expensive, but fuel economy would seem to be the biggest factor in the VARIABLE expense category, is it not? Assuming two boats making the same 1,000 mile island hopping journey over a 6 month period (just as an example), both staying in marinas or at anchor the same amount, with the same eating habits for the crew, and no damage repairs - what else will even come close to the dollar difference between one of them at .5 nmpg and one at 1.0? (The difference is $4,000 for $4 per gallon gas, $5,000 for $5 gas, etc.)
BrianSmith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2015, 11:21 AM   #55
Guru
 
cardude01's Avatar
 
City: Victoria TX
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Bijou
Vessel Model: 2008 Island Packet steadysailer
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,166
Blue Water Boat and the Caribbean

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianSmith View Post
If that's true, then that's OK. I'm not expecting to get 2 nmpg - but I sure don't want to get .5, either. Anything in the neighborhood of 1.0 at 7 - 8 kts is going to get serious consideration. As long as running at that speed isn't going to increase the maintenance costs of the engines, or seriously shorten their life.







I'm sure there are other things that are more expensive, but fuel economy would seem to be the biggest factor in the VARIABLE expense category, is it not? Assuming two boats making the same 1,000 mile island hopping journey over a 6 month period (just as an example), both staying in marinas or at anchor the same amount, with the same eating habits for the crew, and no damage repairs - what else will even come close to the dollar difference between one of them at .5 nmpg and one at 1.0? (The difference is $4,000 for $4 per gallon gas, $5,000 for $5 gas, etc.)

I would say the biggest expenses will be repairs, maintenance and upgrades, so the emphasis should be on finding a well maintained, already updated boat. IMO.
cardude01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2015, 12:04 PM   #56
TF Site Team
 
ksanders's Avatar
 
City: SEWARD ALASKA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: LISAS WAY
Vessel Model: BAYLINER 4788
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,952
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianSmith View Post
I just looked at several on Yachtworld. Nice layout (for our purposes), but:
- Looks like the engines are accessed by lifting the salon floor, with practically no space above them once you'r down there. That's what we have now, and I really want more engine room than that. I'll be doing every bit of work I'm capable of, and I want some room in which to operate.
- At 30,000 lbs for a 48' boat, it seems a little light for a "blue water" boat - doesn't it? Might it not get tossed about pretty badly in the 4' - 5' seas that, despite all efforts to avoid, I'm sure we'll find ourselves in from time to time?
- No offense to Kevin or anyone else intended, but as long as I've been around boats, I've always heard Bayliners described as "entry level" and "production boats", with fit and finish, construction methods, and materials that just aren't up to, say, a Hatteras or Defever. Is that reputation unfair? I really have no idea - I've never owned one.
Brian, while i would not hesitate to take my Bayliner into the Caribbean, it would not be my first choice if that were my only operating area.

As far as engine room access be very careful about that. If you cannot stand up pretty straight in your engine room, it can be much more comfortable to remove the floor panels, allowing unlimited ability to work on the engines. I was recently on a friends boat and while his engine room seemed nice and tall, when you actually got inside you were still stooping more than you'd think, and his floors were not removable, making it actually less fun than my engine room.

As far as fit and finish goes, it is not on par with say a Grand Banks, but is pretty much the same as other production boats I've seen, from a visual perspective.

From a mechanical and materials perspective The Bayliner 4788 lacks nothing, and even has some advantages over some other boats. The main advantage is engineering and longevity of the production run in terms of numbers built and to some extent time.

There are allot of boats on the market that while the base design was done by a famous name Naval Architect, the actual construction, and many of the decisions regarding materials were in the hands of the ship yard over seas that interpreted the design, and actually built a boat.

Bayliner with the 4788 assembled a team of Naval Architects and other engineering professionals who not only designed the boat, they mocked every piece up, and optimized the design. They then oversaw production, making a constant series of improvements during the production run.

The result of this is why you see very few long term problems with the large Motoryachts, especially as you near the end of the production cycle.

As far as materials, well it's the same stuff you'll find with any other boat. My boat has Cummins engines, and hurth transmissions, PSS shaft seals, 2" shafts, and Nibrial props. The generators were westerbeke, the sea strainers and other hardware is Perko, all standard stuff.
__________________
Kevin Sanders
Bayliner 4788
Seward, Alaska
www.mvlisasway.com
ksanders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2015, 01:26 PM   #57
Senior Member
 
BrianSmith's Avatar
 
City: Wherever Smartini is
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Smartini
Vessel Model: 2002 Kristen 52' Flybridge Trawler
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Donsan View Post
Limit your search to the Long Range Cruiser (LRC) version of the Hat. They will typically have smaller HP engines and greater fuel capacity.
GREAT INFO! We hadn't really noticed that distinction before. The 48 LRC looks promising, and the 58 LRC looks awesome! Will look for as many examples of these as we can find.
BrianSmith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2015, 01:34 PM   #58
Senior Member
 
BrianSmith's Avatar
 
City: Wherever Smartini is
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Smartini
Vessel Model: 2002 Kristen 52' Flybridge Trawler
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by ksanders View Post
Brian, while i would not hesitate to take my Bayliner into the Caribbean, it would not be my first choice if that were my only operating area.
Kevin - since the Caribbean IS going to be our only operating area - I'm curious why you say that about your Bayliner? What WOULD be your first choice? (Assuming it would do some things, or somehow be, different from your Bayliner - knowing those things might be very helpful to me.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ksanders View Post
As far as engine room access be very careful about that. If you cannot stand up pretty straight in your engine room, it can be much more comfortable to remove the floor panels, allowing unlimited ability to work on the engines. I was recently on a friends boat and while his engine room seemed nice and tall, when you actually got inside you were still stooping more than you'd think, and his floors were not removable, making it actually less fun than my engine room.
Agree completely on the need to be able to actually stand up! But, I really hope I don't have to remove the salon floor to do that. That's what I've got with our Gulfstar, and quite frankly, it's a real PITA to remove all 4 panels and stow them somewhere.
BrianSmith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2015, 02:20 PM   #59
TF Site Team
 
ksanders's Avatar
 
City: SEWARD ALASKA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: LISAS WAY
Vessel Model: BAYLINER 4788
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,952
My first choice would be a stabilized vessel. Just for thecomfort of roll dampening, not the safety.

While you could add fins to a 4788, and they have been done with great results, you can buy something that already has stabilizers.

The next time my boat makes it to Anacortes I'll probably add fins. If I had it to do over again I would have added them during our refit.
__________________
Kevin Sanders
Bayliner 4788
Seward, Alaska
www.mvlisasway.com
ksanders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2015, 07:56 PM   #60
Guru
 
City: kemah
Country: USA
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 997
the gulfstar 45' has a nice layout and a walkin engine room.

like this one...

1986 Gulfstar by Viking Yachts 44 Motoryacht Fleming Island FL for Sale 32003 - iboats.com
__________________

what_barnacles is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:05 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012