View Poll Results: Motor owned, now own, enjoy most, easiest / less costly - multiple choices encouraged
1. Owned diesel boat[s] 65 69.15%
2. Owned gasoline boat[s] 59 62.77%
3. Currently own diesel boat[s] 81 86.17%
4. Currently own gasoline boat[s] 40 42.55%
5. Enjoy using diesel motors more than gasoline 67 71.28%
6. Enjoy using gasoline motors more than diesel 4 4.26%
7. Found diesel motors easier to service/deal-with 48 51.06%
8. Found gasoline motors easier to service/deal-with 13 13.83%
9. Found diesel motors less expensive over the long run 41 43.62%
10. Found gasoline motors less expensive over the long run 11 11.70%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 94. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-13-2016, 11:54 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by kulas44
I've often wondered how a pair of small 4 cylinder inboards, like the Mercruiser 140 hp, ran at displacement speed in a 40ish foot boat would do.
Here is an interesting take, on just that, from the guy so many hate to love; David Pascoe.

Some of it is out of whack but primarily because of it's published date.
Some very good points, though.
Marine Engines : Power Options - Gas Versus Diesel

In an earlier post I commented about a 40 Tolly with pair of 454s capable of drinking 48 USGPH. With 200 US gallon tankage, do the math.

When I used to run all over the BC south coast out of Port Moody with gas and 100 gallon tankage, I needed to plan the route based on gas docks. A run to Princess Louisa Inlet required a stop at Egmont in both directions.

A 34 Grand Banks would take a day or two to travel the 100 NM to Campbell River when I could make the run for Reuben Sandwich, in a 34 Sea Ray. On the other hand, I could troll (not trawl) to CR and enjoy a fresh Blue Back or we could kick it up and the boys could ski along the way. Had to fuel up before heading home though.

All depends, don't it?
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Old 01-13-2016, 12:18 PM   #42
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I've often wondered how a pair of small 4 cylinder inboards, like the Mercruiser 140 hp, ran at displacement speed in a 40ish foot boat would do. They handle very low rpm very well, much better than diesel engines, and could easily make hull speed with low fuel useage and almost no noise. And, they would probably do it just as long as the diesel engine, unless of course the boat explodes
Sweet engines I'm hearing you say. I had that emotional reaction to the sound (whine) of my old 3 cyl Johnson OB at med-light cruise throttle on my 19' OB boat. Still prefer it to my modern 4 stroke Suzuki OB. But at idle I'd take the 4 stroke any time. Just talk'in sound though.

There was a 36GB ob YW that had two JH Yanmars as replacements for FL's. That was a very desirable boat IMO. Who would do it though unless at least one of the FL's was toast. Perhaps adding a friend w a toasted FL in his boat and was offering good money for the remaining good FL.
Two small engines in overpowered trawlers is a good option if it is cost effective and one dosn't need the higher speeds. But money is money.
Marin I'm not say'in the GB36 was overpowered as it was built in it's day and for some like yourself who use that power. Would be nice if the FL's were lighter though. But would it be trawler like then and desirable as trawlers by those that seek heavy boats (trawlers(heavy cruisers))?
However if all the dominoes were to line up ???
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Old 01-13-2016, 11:25 PM   #43
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1098 visitors but only 243 entries... hummmmm

And, with many of the participating persons (if not all) each checking on a few entree lines = most visitors not providing any participation. Reason for that could be many fold. Such as:

- Visitor has had and has no boat?
- Or, visitor simply knows not how to answer some of the selections??
- Or ????
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Old 01-14-2016, 12:28 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Art View Post
1098 visitors but only 243 entries... hummmmm

And, with many of the participating persons (if not all) each checking on a few entree lines = most visitors not providing any participation. Reason for that could be many fold. Such as:

- Visitor has had and has no boat?
- Or, visitor simply knows not how to answer some of the selections??
- Or ????
Wifey B:

A
B
C
D
A+B
A+C
A+D
B+C
B+D
C+D
A+B+C
A+C+D
B+C+D
A+B+C+D
None of the above
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Old 01-14-2016, 01:34 AM   #45
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Would be nice if the FL's were lighter though. But would it be trawler like then and desirable as trawlers by those that seek heavy boats (trawlers(heavy cruisers))?
What's "trawler like" mean? With Nordic Tug and Camano and Ranger talking about "fast trawlers" and Ranger talking about "trailerable trawlers" it seems that weight and speed have squat-all to do with any boat definition, let alone "trawler."

Our PNW boat is what it is because it's what it is. Which sounds silly but isn't. It has heavy engines because that's what boat builders used back then in boats like this. Does it have to have heavy engines to be what it is? Nope. If someone put modern, lightweight engines in it it would still be what it is: a 36' marine version of a motorhome.

Our boat was built with diesel engines. Does that define what it is? Nope. It could have been built with gasoline engines (like Tollycraft did with a about a zillion boats) and it would still be what it is, however you want to name that.

I don't think gasoline or diesel or electric motors define what a boat is, unless you're defining them by what kind of fuel they use. Power is power. What burns (or sparks) to make that power is sort of irrelevant as long as the power and what makes it is matched to the purpose.

Art down there in the SFO Bay area has a cruiser with a couple of gas engines in it. What he does with it is pretty much the same as what we do with a cruiser that probably weighs near twice as much with a couple of big, heavy diesels in it. He might be able to go a little faster if he's in a hurry, although with powerful enough diesels and enough of them I can go just as fast--- or faster--- with diesel fuel.

I don't use the term "trawler" and you don't use the term "cabin cruiser." So let's call the category of boat that Art and I have "ugwhump." We'll define an ugwhump as a boat that is used for recreational cruising in coastal waters at moderate speeds, say 6 to 12 knots. Ugwhumps have one or more cabins, one or more heads, one or more showers, and a galley. In other words, everything one needs to cruise self-sufficiently for extended periods of time.

Is there anything in the definition of an ugwhump that dictates diesel or gasoline power? Not that I can see.

Is an ugwhump powered by diesel any more desirable, to use your word, than an ugwhump powered by gas? Could be, I suppose, if an individual has a personal preference for one over the other. But as far as the boat being a good ugwhump is concerned, I don't think so.

So I fail to see how engine fuel or engine weight have any relationship to whether or not a boat in the general category of ugwhump is a good one. Because whether you insist on calling them "trawlers" or "cabin cruisers" or "ugwhumps," they include such a huge variety of shapes, sizes, weights, configurations and speeds that there is no one-size-fits-all description for the kind of engine they need or is best for them.

For the proof of that you need look no farther than the kind of boats Art and I use to do exactly the same thing.
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Old 01-14-2016, 06:19 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Art View Post
1098 visitors but only 243 entries... hummmmm

And, with many of the participating persons (if not all) each checking on a few entree lines = most visitors not providing any participation. Reason for that could be many fold. Such as:

- Visitor has had and has no boat?
- Or, visitor simply knows not how to answer some of the selections??
- Or ????

I couldn't see the poll on my I pad, I had to use my pc to vote ...


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Old 01-14-2016, 06:23 AM   #47
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I don't use the term "trawler" and you don't use the term "cabin cruiser." So let's call the category of boat that Art and I have "ugwhump." We'll define an ugwhump as a boat that is used for recreational cruising in coastal waters at moderate speeds, say 6 to 12 knots. Ugwhumps have one or more cabins, one or more heads, one or more showers, and a galley. In other words, everything one needs to cruise self-sufficiently for extended periods of time.
.

I like ugwhump. I only have severe difficulties to pronounce it.


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Old 01-14-2016, 08:23 AM   #48
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I like ugwhump. I only have severe difficulties to pronounce it.


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I see that as ug-wh-ump... sounds like a character's clan from Wizard Of OZ. In that: Oh that fellow is part of the Ugwhump clan! Or, don't you think those Ugwhumps are nice to invite us onto their Ugwhump style boat!

Marin comes up with some unusual ones!
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Old 01-14-2016, 11:37 AM   #49
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'Are you having a good time Marin?

We all know what a trawler is and that's that. Ranger and other lightweight boats like outboards don't have the weight to be heavy cruisers. They aren't heavy. They just aren't heavy. Ranger is a slightly odd looking but nice looking cruiser that is probably marketed as a trawler because trawler is vogue now. Boats like Rangers and Camano's aren't 100% trawlers. They are lighter than a trawler and faster than a trawler.

Most of us aren't lost here. We know what a trawler is. A few will be call'in their trawler styled cruiser a trawler all the time they own it. It not only gives the manufacturer increased sales it gives the buyer some status.

But if I paint a black and white picture of this issue I lead you astray. We had road bikes and dirt bikes. Then we had crossover bikes. SUV's and crossovers. A Ranger is very well styled in the trawler image and is probably a very nice boat. But they are only part trawler. Most trawlers are in the grey area. Not 100% trawler. And the buyers of the grey boats didn't want a trawler. They put their money on "part trawler" so we can assume that's what they wanted. They spoke loudly w their money that they wanted a non trawler ... Or part trawler.

A boat that is 100% trawler would also qualify as a heavy cruiser. But there are heavy cruisers that perhaps aren't trawlers because they don't look like trawlers and I'll bet most would agree w me there. The old 40' soft chine wood Monk designed cruisers are probably as much the predecessor of trawler type boats than any other. But I don't think they look like trawlers .. very much. And what boat is 100% trawler? I'd say a older GB is and a CHB 34. But my own boat that is more trawler than many pure trawlers is slightly into the cutesy tug style. And very few tug types look much like tugs. The Krogen 42 isn't a tug nor are they a real passagemaker. They are sort of a crossover between a trawler and a passagemaker. They do well in either role. Could be called either and there's no name for what they really are.

So we all know what a trawler really is but most boats here are in or slightly in a grey area. Nobody's really fool'in anybody. But to call a planing OB boat a trawler is to call an early Ford Mustang a sports car.
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Old 01-14-2016, 12:35 PM   #50
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Eric-- The name of a product is determined by the creators, the manufacturers, of that product. The fact that you as an individual feel a product should be called something is totally irrelevant. In the eyes of the industry and the overall market you are every bit as wrong in defining a trawler as a heavy, slow boat as I am in defining it as a fishing boat.

In the eyes of the manufacturers and their marketing departments a trawler is anything they want to call a trawler. So a Nordic Tug is a trawler, a Camano Troll is a trawler, a Ranger Tug is a trawler, a gas-powered Tollycrft is a trawler, an outboard powered boat can be a trawler, a displacement boat can be a trawler, a semi-planing boat can be a trawler, a planing boat can be a trawler, and so on.

You are tilting at a different windmill than I am, but it's a windmill nevertheless. The only definition that matters to the market is what the people who define and create that market say the definition is. In this case it's the boat manufacturing industry itself. They created the recreational trawler so they get to define it. And, as we all know, they now apply the term trawler to just about every type of recreational cruising boat on the planet. We may not agree with that but our individual opinions don't count.

So your very strict definition and my very strict definition are both wrong in the reality of today's world. Art's Tollycraft, our Grand Banks, our friend's Camano Troll, John's fast Carver, Don's Sabre, and our other friends' Nordic Tug and Ranger Tug are all trawlers because the industry-- and today's market-- says they are. End of story.

Which means that the term "trawler" does not define the kind or amount of power or the kind of fuel.
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Old 01-14-2016, 01:20 PM   #51
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1098 visitors but only 243 entries... hummmmm

And, with many of the participating persons (if not all) each checking on a few entree lines = most visitors not providing any participation. Reason for that could be many fold. Such as:

- Visitor has had and has no boat?
- Or, visitor simply knows not how to answer some of the selections??
- Or ????
Or??? 243 people clicked on the thread 4 times...

4:1 read to participation ratio is an overwhelming success Art. Don't get so wrapped around the axel about numbers until you figure out what they are telling you
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Old 01-14-2016, 01:42 PM   #52
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Or??? 243 people clicked on the thread 4 times...

4:1 read to participation ratio is an overwhelming success Art. Don't get so wrapped around the axel about numbers until you figure out what they are telling you
Heck, Craig - Worry not! Only reason I placed that post regarding number variations was to simply get this thread back onto the up-list on side of TF home page! Didn't have anything bright to say... so figured I'd get a number debate going!

Then there is Eric and Marin segued onto this thread as to debating what is or is not a trawler????!!!! OMG

Last post of Eric's had my eyes crossed and mind twisted regarding what he was really trying to say. Ain't TF Fun!
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Old 01-14-2016, 02:50 PM   #53
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No Marin ..
The name of a product is determined by the users.

Art I'm pleased you actually read my post. I was think'in it was to be one of those too long to read posts. Just after I posted it I realized how off topic it was. Bad man me.

Good thread Art!
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Old 01-14-2016, 03:38 PM   #54
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I obviously have one of the "Grey" vessels.

Eric, Willy looks more like a converted troller although I have
known a similar boat rigged for gillnetting. In the off season it was used
to pull a beamtrawl for shrimp/prawns.

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Old 01-14-2016, 04:13 PM   #55
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No Marin ..
The name of a product is determined by the users.
Sorry, but that's wrong. Someone didn't invent a device for heating and crisping up bread, put it on the market, and the buyers and users decided it was a "toaster."

While there are certainly exceptions, everything that comes to market has a name that was thought up by the creator of the product (or the people doing their marketing).

In fact, this is such a powerful process that sometimes products are brought to market under one name but previous similar products are so dominant that their name is applied to the new product. An example that comes to mind is the iPod, a name coined and trademarked by Apple. When Microsoft belatedly decided to get into that market and make their own Mp3 player they called it the Zune. Not many people bought them, but I know a few who did. And they all referred to their devices as "iPods" even though they weren't

Vacuum cleaners in England, no matter who makes them, are all referred to as "hoovers." In fact "hoover" has been a verb over there forever, as in "I'm going to hoover the bedroom this afternoon." Doesn't matter if what you bought is a Dyson, in the UK most people including the person who bought the Dyson, will call it a "hoover."

One reference I have here at my desk says that the word "trawl" probably originated from the obsolete Dutch word "tragelen" which was first used to describe this type of fishing net back in the 1560s. The same reference says the first use of the word "trawl" was in 1759. (I assume because that's the year attached to the first piece of writing the researchers found with the word "trawl" in it).

So we have no way of knowing how or who created the term "tragelen." Could have been a net maker guy for all we know.

The point is that the names of a new type of product or the name of a specific product are almost always created by the people who created the product, not by the people who buy the product. Because until it hits the market they don't even know it exists, let alone what it should be called.

The old stereotype of the inventor who comes with a new device and excitedly declares in his lab, "I just invented a machine to do X and I'm going to call it a _______ " is actually accurate.

In Hawaii I worked for the then-best commercial film/video production house in the state. Our customers were most of the major ad agencies as well as direct accounts with banks, department stores and whatnot. While I worked in the production side of the business we came to know most of the key players in the agency and marketing world very well and we were often present if not participants in meetings that involved what to call a new product or service.

All these naming discussions involved the client and the agency. The ultimate buyers and users of the product or service were never involved, although sometimes findings from surveys of focus groups of potential buyers was incorporated into the product name strategy sessions.

In the industry I work in now, all the product names with one exception I know of were hatched up by this company. Monomail, Clipper, Superfortress, Stratofortress, Stratoliner, Stratocruiser, Stratotanker, Stratocruiser, Dreamliner, Dreamlifter--- they're all names created by someone or a committee at Boeing or its ad agency.

The one exception I know of is Flying Fortress. At the first flight of the Boeing Model 299, the prototype for what became the B-17, in the crowd watching was a reporter from a local newspaper. The plane had been fitted with representations of turrets. I don't know if they had guns, fake guns, or no guns but when the reporter saw the plane he said, "It looks like a veritable flying fortress" or words to that effect and used the term "flying fortress" in his article. The name stuck.

The application of the word "trawler" to recreational cruising boats was not cooked up back in the 1970s by people who bought and used recreational cruising boats. It was conceived by some individual boat builders and boat manufacturing companies (or their marketing people) as a way of branding their boats in a more appealing, more rugged way.

A modern parallel is Ford. They used to brand their pickup trucks in a pretty generic way. Ford promoted comfort and convenience and various features. Pretty much like they did their cars.

Then Dodge changed the branding game. They took some design elements from semi-tractors, toughed-up the look of their pickups, hung the name Ram on them, and began aiming their marketing squarely at male egos and tough self-images.

Ford was caught flat-footed. As quickly as they could they changed their image, too, the most radical change being their animated truck logo. So today, when I turn the key in my new Ford pickup, the LCD screen in front of me lights up and the first thing that happens is a rugged, tough rendition of the Ford logo flies down past the camera to land on a piece of parched, cracked earth and a big cloud of dust comes up. Only after that happens do I get whatever operational display I've selected to be on the screen.

That's the automotive equivalent of the use of the word "trawler" to describe a recreational cruising boat. And in each case, it was dreamed up by the company that wanted to create this very specific image or their product, not by the people who buy or use the truck or boat.

Not sure how to relate this to the preference of gas or diesel but I suspect---- suspect, I've never read or seen anything to indicate that it's true---- that using diesel engines in recreational boats has an element of that same macho, ego-focused, tough-guy image attached to it. Sure, there are safety issues and fuel efficiency issues and longevity issues attached to the decision.

But how much cooler is it to say when asked about one's boat, "I have a diesel cruiser" or "I have a diesel trawler?"

The same thing happens I bet in a lot of people's minds if they are asked what kind of engines are in their boat. "We have diesels," sounds macho, sound's rugged and reliable and needs no further qualification. In comparison, "It's gas powered" puts it into the same ho-hum image category as a car.

It's significant perhaps that even on this forum, saying one's boat is diesel requires no further explanation. But saying one's boat is gas is very often followed by some qualifiers about how gas is a perfectly good, safe powerplant for a cruising boat and so on.

I don't disagree with that at all. But I think it highlights a difference in branding and perception by the cruising boat market between diesel and gas.
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Old 01-14-2016, 04:27 PM   #56
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Sorry, but that's wrong. Someone didn't invent a device for heating and crisping up bread, put it on the market, and the buyers decided it was a "toaster."

While there are certainly exceptions, everything that comes to market has a name that was thought up by the creator of the product.

The old stereotype of the inventor who comes with a new device and excitedly declares in his lab, "I just invented a machine to do X and I'm going to call it a _______ " is actually accurate.
Thoroughly agreed! My proprietary products carry their trade mark name that I arrived at... sometimes I used focus groups to see reactions and specific group peoples' understanding of the name as it related to the product.
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Old 01-14-2016, 04:50 PM   #57
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No Marin ..
The name of a product is determined by the users.

Art I'm pleased you actually read my post. I was think'in it was to be one of those too long to read posts. Just after I posted it I realized how off topic it was. Bad man me.

Good thread Art!
Eric - Glad you like this thread. I have one excessive compulsive energy in my personal performa format (that I'm aware of - lol) ... i.e., I usually read every word on every copy put before me.
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Old 01-14-2016, 05:56 PM   #58
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Old 01-14-2016, 06:42 PM   #59
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Marin,
Pretty good post #55.
Remember the days when Honda motorcycles were the rage ... the new "thing"? A motorcycle was a motorcycle but they became so popular the general public started calling motorcycles hondas. Hondas were of course just hondas and the name for motorcycles went back to motorcycle. Now if people would stop calling cars "rides" more normality will come to pass.
You put forth a good case (as usual) re the maker of things launching the name for that thing. It does happen but usually things already have very well established names. So most things already having a name makes you wrong.
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Old 01-14-2016, 07:53 PM   #60
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Marin,
So most things already having a name makes you wrong.
How do you come up with that? If a thing has a name it has a name, and the chances are that the name was thought up by the people who created the thing in the first place regardless of how recent or long ago this was.

The fact the first person to combine a motor and a bicycle way back when decided to call it a motorcycle doesn't change the fact that the name was created by the guy who created the product, not the people who subsequently bought and used motorcycles.

How can people (users) who have no clue that a new product is headed their way possibly come up with a name or term to describe it before it shows up, by which point the people who created it will have named it themselves?

This is as true of the fellow who back in God-knows-when first thought to make a device to keep horses' hooves from breaking down on hard or rough surfaces and called his invention a "horse shoe" and the car manufacturer (or its ad agency) who first decided to create a combination of a jeep-type vehicle and a station wagon and came up with the name "sport utility vehicle." Neither the name "horseshoe" or "SUV" was ginned up by the people who eventually bought them.
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