Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 04-07-2012, 08:00 AM   #1
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,537
Your next boat?

No Greater Passion for the Craft: LAYLA, a Take On John Alden's "Miniature Ocean-Going Tug"

Probably not enough sail to actually sail, but pretty!!
__________________
Advertisement

FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2012, 11:58 AM   #2
TF Site Team
 
ksanders's Avatar
 
City: SEWARD ALASKA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: LISAS WAY
Vessel Model: BAYLINER 4788
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,956
If we EVER sell our 4788 Bayliner, which is a great costal cruiser, it will be to buy a...

62 Nordhavn
__________________

ksanders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2012, 12:00 PM   #3
Guru
 
Phil Fill's Avatar
 
City: Everett Wa
Country: US
Vessel Name: Eagle
Vessel Model: Roughwater 58 pilot house
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,919
How many times have we discussed motor sailor trawler with sail. With the price of fuel going up the increase demand for full displacement with the option of sails. Some of the trawlers offer sails as an option. Diesel Duch Krogan Nordhavn and others. Sails where added to a 58 Roughwater to increase the range and reduce fuel. I love the old classic motor sailers with tall solon house that looked like a cross between a sail boat and a trawler. The 58 RW originally came with a bow front mast so adding masts would not be that difficult. One of the options to cross oceans.

There will be no next boat.
Phil Fill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2012, 12:11 PM   #4
Guru
 
City: North Charleston, SC
Country: USA
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 4,390
At my age, and with all the personal effort I've put into my boat, I can't see ever having a "next boat".
rwidman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2012, 12:19 PM   #5
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,724
Now that I'm back down south moorage is the big expense and the're will be no "next boat" that needs to be moored. I'll keep my short boat thanks.

Motor sailers are better for range, and are more stable but are false economy for the reason that a 2nd engine is far cheaper than all that rigging. Going to windward under power is anything but economical. If one is far out to sea w a heavy rig I think I'd rather have sail (motor sailer) but along the coast I see the twin diesel boat as best.
Nomad Willy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2012, 12:56 PM   #6
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,537
A second engine just doubbles the maint and increases the fuel burn 50% to 100% as many builders offer the same boat with single or twin using the same engine selection.

This practice guarentees the twins will almost always suffer from under loading almost 100% of the operational time.

Twice the complexity , weight , fuel burn and poorer longevity, half the ER space, , no thanks.

To be a real as defined by windward ability , the proverbial ability to beat off a lee shore , insurance co's had a rule of thumb.

In Skeenes "If the boat has at least the sail area of her load water line squared , divided by two, she qualifies as a motorsailor and gets an insurance cost reduction of 10%."

A 40 ft lwl squared is 1600 , divided by 2 and with 800 sq ft it is a MOTORSAILOR.

Our 90/90 is 28 LWL, and carries 737sq ft of ordinary working canvass.

That's where the first 90 comes from.

FF
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2012, 03:18 PM   #7
TF Site Team
 
dwhatty's Avatar
 
City: Home Port: Buck's Harbor, Maine
Country: USA
Vessel Name: "Emily Anne"
Vessel Model: 2001 Island Gypsy 32 Europa (Hull #146)
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,733
Here's Burma, my favorite motorsailer in our area.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Burma.jpg
Views:	109
Size:	35.9 KB
ID:	10822  
dwhatty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2012, 05:22 PM   #8
Art
Guru
 
Art's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 7,986
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by FF View Post
Fred Early 70's I lived in Rockport ME. Built, owned and operated a restaurant & tavern in adjacent town, Camden. Thanks for posting the link, very cool! Art
Art is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2012, 05:02 PM   #9
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Quote:
Originally Posted by FF View Post
This practice guarentees the twins will almost always suffer from under loading almost 100% of the operational time.
Suffer? How has the twin GB (or any other boat) built in the late 1960s, early 1970s and racked up thousands of hours on its engines over the ensuing decades "suffered?" Assuming proper operation and maintenance, the engines in these boats (we have one) burn no more oil and run just as well as they did when they were installed in the boat.

I can see how running at combustion chamber temperatures that are too low can cause problems, but if the combustion temperature is where it should be, the engine could care less about its loading. I agree one is somewhat tied to the other, but once the proper combustion chamber temperature is reached the engine's happy no matter whether the loading is optimal or not.

Overloading can run the engine temperature up too high, and severe underloading can cause the engine to run too cool, both of which can be damaging. But the specified engine cruise rpm range and prop specifications of a twin--- at least a properly designed and equipped twin--- are such that in the normal cruise range the combustion temperatures are where they should be for proper operation. Twenty, thirty, even forty years of operation in thousands of twin engine boats would seem to bear this out.

I don't think there's any "suffering" involved here at all.
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2012, 09:02 PM   #10
Guru
 
Edelweiss's Avatar
 
City: PNW
Country: USA
Vessel Model: 1976 Californian Tricabin LRC
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,834
My Next Boat and it's associated mooring.

Yes I drained the bottle first. . . very. . . very . . . Carefully!!
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	ship in bottle.jpg
Views:	99
Size:	13.9 KB
ID:	10837  
Edelweiss is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2012, 06:07 AM   #11
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,537
I can see how running at combustion chamber temperatures that are too low can cause problems

Actually its the combustion pressure , not temperature that can cause problems.

Rings seal because the combustion pressure gets BEHIND them , forcing them into the proper contact pressure.

This seals the bore , does not allow too much blowby and the higher pressure keeps the cylinders from being burnished , a polishing action that removes the cylinders hone marks, your oil control.

Twins are great for some , but they can not be the same size as a single for an identical boat.

If the single runs 80% to 90% rated power the twins will be under 50% all the time.

Many singles cruise under 50% of rated power , which leaves same sized twins forever loafing.

Twins used at high power do not suffer , the simplest method is smaller engines on the twin.

Base engine Selection from a taxi or tractor source , rather than an industrial diesel, is a big help to both cost and light load longevity.

But don't EVER try for full rated power for hours on end,with a lawn implement diesel ,

Just an occasional prop check , no more.

FF
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2012, 06:40 AM   #12
Guru
 
timjet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,905
Quote:
Originally Posted by FF View Post
A second engine just doubbles the maint and increases the fuel burn 50% to 100% as many builders offer the same boat with single or twin using the same engine selection.

This practice guarentees the twins will almost always suffer from under loading almost 100% of the operational time.

FF
Well not quite FF. Perhaps in some applications, but in my boat it would not achieve the performance promised by the builder without 2 engines. No problem underloading. Overloading due to improperly pitched or sized props is a distinct possibility however. You did not touch on the safety aspect of 2 engines.

My next boat; a land yacht.
__________________
Tim
Tampa Bay
Carver 355 ACMY Twin Cummins Diesels Sold
timjet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2012, 01:36 PM   #13
Guru
 
Phil Fill's Avatar
 
City: Everett Wa
Country: US
Vessel Name: Eagle
Vessel Model: Roughwater 58 pilot house
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,919
Next boat? Shoot I am not done with the present boat. The up grades and additions/changes I would like to do on the Eagle I will be broke and will not be able to afford another boat. 10 grand inside passage, 20 grand coastal cruising, 30+ grand to cross the ocean.
Phil Fill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2012, 04:46 PM   #14
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Quote:
Originally Posted by FF View Post

Twins are great for some , but they can not be the same size as a single for an identical boat.



FF
Really? Perhaps someone should tell Grand Banks as they and the original company, American Marine, have been doing exactly this with staggering success on a worldwide basis since 1966. And I know the owners of a few of those 1960s twins and guess what? Their original engines are cooking along just fine in 2012.

I've found there is generally a major disconnect between armchair theory and reality.
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2012, 06:06 PM   #15
Senior Member
 
Baggiolini's Avatar
 
City: Monterey, CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Mahalo
Vessel Model: Defever 44
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 398
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Fill View Post
Next boat? Shoot I am not done with the present boat. The up grades and additions/changes I would like to do on the Eagle I will be broke and will not be able to afford another boat. 10 grand inside passage, 20 grand coastal cruising, 30+ grand to cross the ocean.
Ditto.

I do have dreams of a Defever with joystick controls that allow me to move any which way from anywhere on the boat.
Baggiolini is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2012, 10:36 AM   #16
Senior Member
 
City: Maine
Country: USA
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 109
Our next boat will be a sail assisted Diesel Duck. The 46-2 seems to be the one that fits our needs. I like her lines and appointments. I am working on a model to see the effect of bilge keels. I don't care for the look, or the work of using Parevene type stabilizers or thru-hull's either. Bilge keels work great for roll on larger ships, and the increased drag is negligable on a displacement hull, so I hope this holds true when scaling down.
Anthonyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2012, 11:21 AM   #17
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Country: usa
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,380
A few things:

According to Steve Dashew it is a myth that costs are less for blue water intended and well maintained sailboats vs his design of a power boat. Check out his website for the details.

There are several late model diesel ducks for sale, they are not cheap. Given their antiquated (I didn't say bad) design and high build cost I'd guess a well cared for late model Nordhavn would be a better investment and a lot more fun.

FF, the underloaded diesel problem you so often raise is a figment of your DD 2 stroke imagination. Substitute "underused and poorly maintained" for "underloaded" and I agree with you 100%. And please take your theories to Tony Athens, not me, on this issue.
sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2012, 12:11 PM   #18
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,724
FF, Marin,
On the twins I agree w you FF. Marin's going to be fine though as I think he loads them both to 3 gph each. But FF you're right a twin where they use the same engine in the single and the twin like the GB in this day and age the twin will be very underloaded w most boat operators. When I looked at boats this past winter I looked at single engined GBs only for this reason. Only because I could'nt afford to feed two engines. And of course I do'nt like underloading. We've had this discussion several times before and I'm sure GB marketed the boat like 50s and 60s cars. A six cylinder wagon for the family man and a 4 barrel V8 hard top for the single dude about town. A properly designed FD or SD boat should have enough power to drive it to it's operational speed w about 50 to 75% engine load. That is a narrow range of power and a 100% difference in engine power is way beyond the range of power required. Of course it's much closer to good practice in the GBs than it would be in a FD boat. And I'm not condemning GB completely as fuel was much cheaper then and one could stretch a bit and imagine GB selling boats to people that wanted to cruise at 7 knots and others at 10 knots. Kinda like the 6 and V8 cars. But the power requirement is much much wider for cars. The fact that GB sold many more twins than singles shows that buyers wanted speed, extra power and they probably considered the twin as a deluxe model and sought after. But to be sure (in my opinion) the single engined 36 and especially the 42 should have been sold w a FD hull. And the GBs have a hull that is closer to planing than FD. In GBs defense two different hulls would have been expensive but if they were selling them today and offered the FD hull I'll bet it would outsell the twin by at least as wide a margin as the twin outsold the single in the 60s and 70s. I really like the GBs but I'd want to have the pilothouse further aft and change the stern to FD w twin 40 hp engines like my Mitsu.
Nomad Willy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2012, 01:09 PM   #19
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,537
Really? Perhaps someone should tell Grand Banks as they and the original company, American Marine, have been doing exactly this with staggering success on a worldwide basis since 1966

No question , the REASON for the "staggering success"is very simple ,
the engines installed, Ford Econo-Power marinizations or Perkins which have an remarkably high rated power compared to their actual output capability.

No one in their right mind would consider using a tractor or taxi or light truck engine suitable for a constant rated load.

Like your car , it might say 455hp on the air cleaner , but in an earth mover it wouldn't last the day. In your car 200,000+ miles .

Same with tractor or lawn implement takeouts . FAB! for an hour or two on the pin, followed by weeks of plodding at 3 GPH.

A real industrial engine IS useful at 100% load factor , DD's and others do it for tens of thousands of hours in the oil patch hooked to big pumps.24/7/365

For lower noise and good service life , most pleasure boat assemblers use engines that are comfortable at about 75% power , or less.

Genset builders prefer 80% load at 90% RPM, again for longer service life.

Single or twin if 70 hp moves the boat , 135 rated making 70 great , 5 gph and not too much noise , with 2 engines is only 40hp each , not great but still at 3 gph ,not that all that far from what they were built for.

The method of success was engine selection , of an engine with great low power ability to run almost forever.

FF
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2012, 01:26 PM   #20
Senior Member
 
City: Maine
Country: USA
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunchaser View Post
A few things:

According to Steve Dashew it is a myth that costs are less for blue water intended and well maintained sailboats vs his design of a power boat. Check out his website for the details.

There are several late model diesel ducks for sale, they are not cheap. Given their antiquated (I didn't say bad) design and high build cost I'd guess a well cared for late model Nordhavn would be a better investment and a lot more fun.

FF, the underloaded diesel problem you so often raise is a figment of your DD 2 stroke imagination. Substitute "underused and poorly maintained" for "underloaded" and I agree with you 100%. And please take your theories to Tony Athens, not me, on this issue.
Sunchaser, I am not sure I understand why you think Nordhavn's are a better investment. If you are comparing fiberglass to steel, well, I say it depends. Good steel, if well taken care of, will last a long time in saltwater. Using the proper bottom coatings at the right intervals will assure that. Fiberglass that is taken care of will produce similiar results.The 47 Nordhavn has a displacement of 85,000, the 46-2 Duck is 67,500, so the Duck needs less machinery or sail to move her through the water. As I would think any boat owner would know, the purchase of a boat is a large expense, so I value all opinions earnestly. I am not trying to be argumentative, just looking for insight into all schools of thought that will help me decide on the right boat for me. Thanks for the input and insight.
__________________

Anthonyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:49 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012