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Old 04-14-2012, 03:02 PM   #21
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FF, Marin,
On the twins I agree w you FF. Marin's going to be fine though as I think he loads them both to 3 gph each. But FF you're right a twin where they use the same engine in the single and the twin like the GB in this day and age the twin will be very underloaded w most boat operators.
Eric-- I don't argue the fact that a couple of FL120s in a boat like ours are not going to taxed very much. I'm not sure I'd use the term "under-loaded" but I suppose one could. I'm only saying that it's not bad for them. A bazillion GBs (and other makes) have pretty much been proving this since the mid-60s. Now I don't think an FL120 should be cruised at anything under 1500rpm because at that point and slower the engine can start running cooler than it should. We cruise at about 1650. I say "about" because the old SW tachs are nothing to write home about in terms of accuracy..

In talking to old-timers with a ton of experience with the Ford Dorset diesel-- in boats and in industrial/agricultural service in the US and UK-- they all say that engine is happiest in the 1500-1800 rpm band. Faster they say shortens their life and slower runs them too cool.
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Old 04-14-2012, 04:26 PM   #22
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You said it, steel. The issue is not are steel vessels good or bad, the issue is people tend to steer away from buying used steel vessels in the 50' range thus the poorer investment potential. (One of the nicest trawlers out there is Delfin, a steel vessel in the PNW). With over 60 Nordhavn 48's plying the world's oceans, the standard has been set for blue water trawler style MVs under 50', in fact not too many years ago the N46 was every bit as popular.

One of a kinds and few built are a very hard re-sell, and that is the Diesel Duck. I have been on both them and the N47. I give my nod to Nordhavn for design, fit, finish, equipment, comfort and fun. Plus the N47 has a capable get home engine.

In no way do I denigrate the Diesel Duck. They are a purpose built boat for serious blue water voyagers. Their start was "you could build it your backyard" and some did. So no argument from me on what you choose to buy, but for me keeping popularity and resale time in mind is important.
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Old 04-14-2012, 05:11 PM   #23
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There's more than a few out there that think once a 4-stroke diesel is broken in, underloading is running it at any RPM not in gear. But if the engine is IN gear...even at idle...there's enough of a load on it it won't be harmed if you ran it like that forever.

Disagree if you want...get in line and there are two lines of thought on the subject....
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Old 04-15-2012, 05:23 PM   #24
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Sunchaser, thanks for the input. I completely agree with you about the steel. If I had the cash and was looking to maximize every penny back out of it, I would make the boat aluminum. Strength to weight ratio is the best. The expense however would be through the roof and most don't like the ride or sound of aluminum. I also agree with you about custom jobs. I generally don't even consider them. The Duck seems to be gaining a little ground though. More are built each year. Defever was our first choice until the wife and I thought we should try to get something better suited for Bluewater. We'll see, maybe I'll be able to sort through all the great information when we are ready to buy. Thanks again.
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Old 04-15-2012, 05:49 PM   #25
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Has anybody actually experienced engine failure do to under loading. I personally haven't heard of anybody having this kind of failure. I've seen engines ruined with improperly designed exhaust systems, cooling issues , oil pump failure, spring plate failure, contaminated fuel and injector problems, I haven't heard of any dieing from chronic under loading. There is so much written about this it must of happened sometime. On the subject of twins vrs singles. I have lost an engine at sea and I was damn thankful I had two, it was rough and I can't even imagine trying to make repairs without the stability of one engine maintaining almost cruising speed while crawling around in the bilge replacing a lower cooling hose. I was a big advocate of single engine efficiency until then. You may have noticed Kadey Krogen, Salene , and Sea Horse are all offering and showing twins. Get home engines only work in calm conditions with little current, a band aid concession to not have a second engine. I personally want redundant security, two engines , two generators, four fuel tanks and three water tanks. Because no matter how old or new your boat sometime somewhere something is going to fail. It's no big thing if Vessel Assist is an hour away, but what if it isn't.
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Old 04-15-2012, 05:58 PM   #26
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Has anybody actually experienced engine failure do to under loading. I personally haven't heard of anybody having this kind of failure. I've seen engines ruined with improperly designed exhaust systems, cooling issues , oil pump failure, spring plate failure, contaminated fuel and injector problems, I haven't heard of any dieing from chronic under loading. There is so much written about this it must of happened sometime. On the subject of twins vrs singles. I have lost an engine at sea and I was damn thankful I had two, it was rough and I can't even imagine trying to make repairs without the stability of one engine maintaining almost cruising speed while crawling around in the bilge replacing a lower cooling hose. I was a big advocate of single engine efficiency until then. You may have noticed Kadey Krogen, Salene , and Sea Horse are all offering and showing twins. Get home engines only work in calm conditions with little current, a band aid concession to not have a second engine. I personally want redundant security, two engines , two generators, four fuel tanks and three water tanks. Because no matter how old or new your boat sometime somewhere something is going to fail. It's no big thing if Vessel Assist is an hour away, but what if it isn't.
I'M NO EXPERT...just been hanging around boats for the last 50+ years..both recreationally and professionally.

Here's my cut...Gensets die from underloading...but that's because they run at higher RPM for the right cycles...but can be severely underloaded for that RPM.

Main engines...as long as they are in gear...are loaded proportionately with the rise in RPM (generally). There's always talk of temps and pressures...but like RickB writes...it's hard to accurately measure those in reality.

So I'm going with the be careful of your genset...but worry less about your main as long as it's broken in and you are putting some proportinal load on it.
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Old 04-15-2012, 08:34 PM   #27
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Greetings,
OK, so where is Rick B? I miss his acerbic wit or at least half of it...
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Old 04-15-2012, 11:15 PM   #28
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(One of the nicest trawlers out there is Delfin, a steel vessel in the PNW).
And it just went on the market this weekend for $1.6m:
1965 Romsdal Romsdahl North Sea Trawler Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

I see that the 100' Romsdal is still for sale...5 years?...I forget. And it appears that Ulysses may be for sale (again?):
1963 53' Rabco 53' Romsdal Trawler LRC | Boating Life 360

I owned a smaller Romsdal about 30 years ago. Steel hull, aluminum superstructure, Volvo with CPP - I sure wish I could afford one of these refurbished ones!
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Old 04-15-2012, 11:24 PM   #29
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No one in their right mind would consider using a tractor or taxi or light truck engine suitable for a constant rated load.
I'm quite happy with my Volvo TMD100A, and I'm pretty sure I'm in my "right mind".
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Old 04-16-2012, 01:25 AM   #30
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No one in their right mind would consider using a tractor or taxi or light truck engine suitable for a constant rated...
Really? Because that's what the Ford engines were that are the base engines for the FL120 and FL135. The Dorset engine-- base for the FL120-- was designed in the late 50s as a truck engine. I believe the Cummins engine used in so many boats is based on a light truck engine. John Deere marine diesels are all based on their agricultural diesels (tractors, etc.). Lugger marine diesels are based on John Deere, Japanese, and German light truck and automotive diesels. And I suspect the folks at Lehman, Deere, Cummins, and Nothern Lights/Lugger are in their right minds, particularly since the marinzed diesels from all these companies have racked up enviable records of success in boats around the world for many decades.
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Old 04-16-2012, 08:18 AM   #31
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And it appears that Ulysses may be for sale (again?):
1963 53' Rabco 53' Romsdal Trawler LRC | Boating Life 360
I've been on Ulysses; nice. Not yachty, but nice. I thought she was purchased and shipped to the PNW to be put into charter service. But maybe I'm confusing her with another of these lovely little ships.
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Old 04-16-2012, 08:47 AM   #32
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Eric-- I don't argue the fact that a couple of FL120s in a boat like ours are not going to taxed very much. I'm not sure I'd use the term "under-loaded" but I suppose one could. I'm only saying that it's not bad for them. A bazillion GBs (and other makes) have pretty much been proving this since the mid-60s. Now I don't think an FL120 should be cruised at anything under 1500rpm because at that point and slower the engine can start running cooler than it should. We cruise at about 1650. I say "about" because the old SW tachs are nothing to write home about in terms of accuracy..

In talking to old-timers with a ton of experience with the Ford Dorset diesel-- in boats and in industrial/agricultural service in the US and UK-- they all say that engine is happiest in the 1500-1800 rpm band. Faster they say shortens their life and slower runs them too cool.
Yeah, my FL120's sweet spot seems to be 1750rpm. Would go forever at that speed - has done in fact. I have no idea how many hourse it has done, the hr meter part of the Motorola rev counter died just after I took possession - possibly even earlier - about 10 ys ago reading 3,600hrs... still uses virtually no oil...
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Old 04-16-2012, 10:06 PM   #33
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Me too Peter!! Hundreds of hours trolling for salmon and fishing for bottom fish all the while idling at least one of the engines. (the ultimate in engine underloading) and they still starts and runs like a clock.

The sad thing is, I'm probably facing a rebuild because the seals on the wet sleeves on 1976 Perkins 6.354's don't last forever. Eventually they let go and you have coolant seeping into the engine, so I'm told.

The question is, do I wait until they start leaking or do them now? If I pass the boat along to my son, does he end up facing the rebuild or do I
fix it and hand him a trouble free boat?
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Old 04-17-2012, 05:27 AM   #34
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"Has anybody actually experienced engine failure do to under loading. I personally haven't heard of anybody having this kind of failure."

The failure is slobbering , a slow death , not an explosion.

Start reading National Fisherman , they have had numerous articles on the short lives of both main engines and gen sets that are operated underloaded.

Push an 85 ft trawler , tow nets , then be killed by hours of ideling to operate the hyd pumps.

OF course all the main engines there are from industrial stock,not marinizations of taxi cab or farm engines.

The small truck marinizations DO work well as ideling is part of the life of a skool bus or power loader.

None of these light engines are selected to operate near 100% power output for long periods of time. Half throttle is part of their design , industrial operation is NOT.

So the boat assembelers can and do get away with a single engine inventory ,(and lower cost due to higher purchase volume) for either single or twin installation.

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Old 04-17-2012, 09:41 AM   #35
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I could not agree more that some fishing fleet vessels suffer early engine demise from idling for protracted periods or under loading their gensets. The lament I hear from fishing boat owners is the operators they lease their boats to abuse the vessels. It seems odd that if the owner is on board that the vessel would continue to be abused. Darwin at work?

What taxicab and tractor engines are you referring to? I've seen plenty of yellow cabs but none with yellow diesel engines. When my 2003 Perkins Sabre 225 engines were on the assembly line some were painted blue and some yellow then rebadged as a Cat 3056, but not for cabs I can assure you.

One of the most popular diesels during the past decade or two has been the Cummins 6BT (and variants) installed in tractors, pickups, gensets, boats, small dirt movers and commercial fishing vessels, time and again.
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Old 04-17-2012, 10:58 AM   #36
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One of the prettiest and well kept boat is the Sovereign of Malahide. I probable will be at the Trawler Fest Anacortes WA along with the Delfin. The Ursa Major another Malahide might be there.

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/photoGallery.jsp??access=Public&currency=USD&listi ng_id=74772&units=Feet&boat_id=1806302&back=boatDe tail.jsp&boat_id=1806302

The Romsdal and the Malahide are similar, some how related, and heavy sea worthy boats.

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Old 04-17-2012, 11:01 AM   #37
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I've been on Ulysses; nice. Not yachty, but nice. I thought she was purchased and shipped to the PNW to be put into charter service. But maybe I'm confusing her with another of these lovely little ships.

You are thinking of the Ursa Major a Malahide out of Seattle. She was moored a the North end of Lake Union and we were at the south. I have lost track of her, but she might be at the Trawler Fest Anacortas getting ready to head north.
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Old 04-17-2012, 11:30 AM   #38
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One of the prettiest and well kept boat is the Sovereign of Malahide. I probable will be at the Trawler Fest Anacortes WA along with the Delfin. The Ursa Major another Malahide might be there.

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/photoGallery.jsp??access=Public&currency=USD&listi ng_id=74772&units=Feet&boat_id=1806302&back=boatDe tail.jsp&boat_id=1806302

The Romsdal and the Malahide are similar, some how related, and heavy sea worthy boats.
Phil - Sovereign of Malahide is simply Out of This World Beautiful!

Thanks, for the link... been a while since I've seen her on web picts, I looked at everyone! - Art
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Old 04-17-2012, 11:45 AM   #39
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Phil - Sovereign of Malahide is simply Out of This World Beautiful!

Thanks, for the link... been a while since I've seen her on web picts, I looked at everyone! - Art
Ditto.
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Old 04-17-2012, 12:45 PM   #40
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Before you guys idle your lives away idling your engines in gear trying to be the king of the mountain of the underloaders you should be aware that that's very hard on dampner plates. Lots of fishermen here in Alaska have problems w the danpner plates. Just say'in
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