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Old 12-18-2014, 03:08 PM   #41
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A long time ago, I traded a car for my first boat. Having had zero open ocean experience and being young/stupid, a friend and I decided to take the 26 foot cabin cruiser from Sooke harbour to Victoria on what appeared to be a calm day in February.

Once we exited the sheltered harbour and into the open sea we discovered rough weather with sizable swells. Progress was slow and one wave at a time, which was also hindered by the fact that the rubber raft which was tied on the bow became loose and started to flop around hindering visibility.
There was a time where I considered beaching the boat for survival's sake.

Many hours later we arrived in Victoria and drank a bottle of Southern Comfort on board. Interesting enough the old Chrysler engine never started again.
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Old 12-18-2014, 03:19 PM   #42
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We sailed thru 50-60kt winds and seas of 18 ft. Neither NOAA nor our weather router had predicted them. By the time we knew it was coming all you could do was prepare.

Relying on a primary strategy of outrunning the weather works fine in an airplane (usually). I don't know if it is a good strategy to base a boat around.
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Old 12-18-2014, 03:22 PM   #43
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Larry, did you lie ahull, or heave to? If the latter does the Krogen stay in position ok or tend to bounce around?
We heaved to but that was in a 42.5' sailboat. We have tried lying ahull in the Krogen. Holding the wheel to windward hoping the bow would try to head up without falling off to far. I found we went beam to. If it wasn't for the paravanes it could have been more dangerous. If we loose the engine in crap weather we do have a sea anchor and I can rig a drogue. I'm not sure which I would use until I looked at the state. The best alternative would be to keep the engine and try maintain steerage into it.
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Old 12-18-2014, 03:35 PM   #44
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Nothing against Dashew, but it strikes me as too much faith in a single person.
His writings, designs, builds and mileage covered place him, his wife, his team and his many buyers in a unique position in this era. If one were to ask who is in second place using his body of work for cruisers as the judging criteria, hard to say who it would be.
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Old 12-18-2014, 03:41 PM   #45
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We heaved to but that was in a 42.5' sailboat. We have tried lying ahull in the Krogen. Holding the wheel to windward hoping the bow would try to head up without falling off to far. I found we went beam to. If it wasn't for the paravanes it could have been more dangerous. If we loose the engine in crap weather we do have a sea anchor and I can rig a drogue. I'm not sure which I would use until I looked at the state. The best alternative would be to keep the engine and try maintain steerage into it.
I hope to get all ready by March, so I can go out in heavy weather to experiment.


I like knowing and hate surprises.

I have a number of ideas and want to try them out. One of them is that lying a hull with the paravanes out, may actually be worse, as the Krogen will roll less, but recover more slowly.

But I'm not doing this alone and the winds need to be off shore, or at least not on shore.
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Old 12-18-2014, 04:00 PM   #46
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...One of them is that lying a hull with the paravanes out, may actually be worse, as the Krogen will roll less, but recover more slowly...
I thought you practiced on the way to Ireland.

It depends on the sea state. If you are in large breaking waves, beam to, with out paravanes, I would think you increase the risk of being "rolled" over. Without an engine, beam to, is to dangerous in large seas with or without paravanes. That's why we carry a sea anchor. The problem with a sea anchor is the retrieval. I know of people who have just cut them loose. A properly sized sea anchor for Hobo is ~18' in diameter.
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Old 12-18-2014, 06:26 PM   #47
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We heaved to but that was in a 42.5' sailboat. We have tried lying ahull in the Krogen. Holding the wheel to windward hoping the bow would try to head up without falling off to far. I found we went beam to. If it wasn't for the paravanes it could have been more dangerous. If we loose the engine in crap weather we do have a sea anchor and I can rig a drogue. I'm not sure which I would use until I looked at the state. The best alternative would be to keep the engine and try maintain steerage into it.
That's actually a good argument for vanes over active fins.

I got into a conversation on another forum with a very knowledgeable mariner who had extensive experience using the Seabrake drogue, as well as heaving to under sail. He said the drogue turned uncomfortable and potentially life threatening situations into perfectly manageable ones, with the autopilot steering just fine in 80 knot winds while doing around 5 knots. I recall he went through pretty bad conditions quite a few times. Personally, if I could have confidence in rigging a para anchor on a bridle that would be my first choice, since heaving to in a sailboat is something I am quite familiar with and am always amazed at its effect. Delfin draws 7 feet, so puts out quite the slick on making way beam to, but it does seems like the loading would be pretty extreme.
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Old 12-18-2014, 08:33 PM   #48
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In the late 60s I was on a 311 ft DE flying a CG flag in the north Atlantic. We had to go in and out of a substantial hurricane to rescue five from a sail boat. There were huge waves and nasty wind and we could not get a large line on the sailboat since we were getting tossed around very violently. As a last resort the rescue was preformed with our surf life boat over the side and all survived. I should think a PLEASURE boat should go to extremes to avoid that type of sea. In the conditions I experienced I think a 40-60ft motor boat would be in great danger and if the crew survived they might be badly beat up and certainly very uncomfortable. That said there are people who like taking risks and spending the CG and Navy's dollars rescuing them when the poop hits the fan.
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Old 12-18-2014, 09:12 PM   #49
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Then again...why not derive buoyancy below the waters surface and glide your way elegantly through the maelstrom?

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Old 12-18-2014, 09:18 PM   #50
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I think, before you criticize Dashew, you need to read his stuff. Then get back to us with your opinions. Otherwise, you are "...a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal..." (I took that quote out of context but bite me!).
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Old 12-18-2014, 10:55 PM   #51
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I have a slightly different opinion. I spend half my life on big tugs. I have to work around weather, schedule and tides.

When I am on my own little bit of heaven I certainly have done my homework wrong if I have taken the wife and Grandkids out in anything remotely resembling your query.

I guess it is different from some guys who are 'itching' to prove themselves and risk their lives (or at least physical comfort). I have no delusions about making myself intentionally uncomfortable while on a pleasure boat. No sense in doing that on my own time. I can stay at the dock or on the hook and bide my time until such time/weather is in my favor.
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Old 12-19-2014, 03:44 AM   #52
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His writings, designs, builds and mileage covered place him, his wife, his team and his many buyers in a unique position in this era. If one were to ask who is in second place using his body of work for cruisers as the judging criteria, hard to say who it would be.

That sir is the problem statement. Nothing is quite so dangerous in this world as a bit of success while on the bleeding edge. Human nature does some perverted things with that kind of thing. It gets worse when people start following and stop asking questions. Otherwise known as simple overconfidence. After all, if you are on the bleeding edge, exactly who is qualified to keep yourself grounded? Tends to sneak up on you.

The last time I found myself a bit proud and confident I was on the bleeding edge of gas diving before the rest of the community caught up. Next thing I knew I was on the floor and my legs stopped working and I could not quite see right either. It all ended well enough eventually and I learned a good lesson in not worshiping that which we think we know, even when we're ahead of the pack. You might want to consider the same. Your call.

The thing is, for those who have been there, and I'll borrow something I heard from a coastie friend. It's fun to pet the tiger. It scares you a little, but you like it. So you pet the tiger again, and you start to get comfortable petting the tiger. You may even tell yourself that you are a good tiger petter. But deep down, you also know the truth, that it has little to do with you and everything to do with the tiger. Still...deep down you just want to pet the tiger again. There is something amazing in a creature so beautiful and so powerful at the same time. So we go out to pet the tiger just one more time. She is such an amazing beauty.
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Old 12-19-2014, 04:14 AM   #53
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...

The thing is, for those who have been there, and I'll borrow something I heard from a coastie friend. It's fun to pet the tiger. It scares you a little, but you like it. So you pet the tiger again, and you start to get comfortable petting the tiger. You may even tell yourself that you are a good tiger petter. But deep down, you also know the truth, that it has little to do with you and everything to do with the tiger. Still...deep down you just want to pet the tiger again. There is something amazing in a creature so beautiful and so powerful at the same time. So we go out to pet the tiger just one more time. She is such an amazing beauty.
Ghost, you are in fine form today. What a wonderful way to put it. And yes, i see that in myself.

As to Larry's comment above about the test coming into Ireland, the problem was, during the two times I did stop the boat, my adrenaline was so high, I never took the time to notice what the boat was doing. I was in crisis mode to get whatever I was doing done and us underway again.

Only later, days later, did it occur to me, that in the almost 20 minutes, we were stopped, for the paravane pole incident, the rolling was not extraordinary. Now, I wish I had actually measured it and taken the reading from the Maretron.

It seemed in hindsight, that we did more bobbin than rolling, but again, I'm not sure. I know that I spent 10 minutes on the side deck (don't even ask why) I only got splashed once, and it wasn't a lot of water (near the low side gunnel)

Also in having read the Pardley books, I really want to try the drogue streaming it from the bow and from the stern (while making way). I want to do these things under somewhat controlled conditions.

Also, I never saw winds while underway stronger than 45 knots, yet, that is also one of the reasons one crosses the Atlantic in summer, when it would be a very rare event to get winds significantly stronger than that in the high summer.

I've read that the North Pacific is actually tamer in the summer than the Atlantic. That remains to be seen.
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Old 12-19-2014, 04:20 AM   #54
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I think, before you criticize Dashew, you need to read his stuff. Then get back to us with your opinions. Otherwise, you are "...a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal..." (I took that quote out of context but bite me!).

Because we don't agree means we have not read his books?
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Old 12-19-2014, 10:39 AM   #55
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That sir is the problem statement. Nothing is quite so dangerous in this world as a bit of success while on the bleeding edge. Human nature does some perverted things with that kind of thing. It gets worse when people start following and stop asking questions. Otherwise known as simple overconfidence. After all, if you are on the bleeding edge, exactly who is qualified to keep yourself grounded? Tends to sneak up on you.

The last time I found myself a bit proud and confident I was on the bleeding edge of gas diving before the rest of the community caught up. Next thing I knew I was on the floor and my legs stopped working and I could not quite see right either. It all ended well enough eventually and I learned a good lesson in not worshiping that which we think we know, even when we're ahead of the pack. You might want to consider the same. Your call.

The thing is, for those who have been there, and I'll borrow something I heard from a coastie friend. It's fun to pet the tiger. It scares you a little, but you like it. So you pet the tiger again, and you start to get comfortable petting the tiger. You may even tell yourself that you are a good tiger petter. But deep down, you also know the truth, that it has little to do with you and everything to do with the tiger. Still...deep down you just want to pet the tiger again. There is something amazing in a creature so beautiful and so powerful at the same time. So we go out to pet the tiger just one more time. She is such an amazing beauty.

Psychological issues aside, what bothers you about Dashew's body of work and have you been in dialogue with him on his web site regarding these thoughts?

The beauty of the internet is that one, if they so choose, can go straight to the source to get clarity. The curse of the internet is that all too often generalist sites such as TF become bashing and bragging forums.
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Old 12-19-2014, 10:48 AM   #56
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I believe the Hiscocks sailed around the world's oceans for 45 years without ever experiencing winds in excess of 35 knots. They did this by being prudent mariners. The point of being prepared for heavy weather is not to facilitate seeking it out, but being prepared for heavy weather. What Dashew has done is design a boat that is fast and efficient, and sometimes fast and efficient is a good way to avoid trouble. It probably isn't the 100% solution to safety at sea, but then again, nothing is.
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Old 12-19-2014, 11:56 AM   #57
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What do I have against Dashew? Absolutely nothing. I think there is a lot to be learned from somebody such as him. He clearly has some original good ideas to learn from.

I don't mean to put anybody off, I've just learned to recognize a certain attitude over the years of participating in some high respect activities. It's just really hard, but critical to recognize when you yield your decision making to someone else. Is Dashew going to be there holding your hand when tshtf? Clearly no, so whether he is right or not, we can't fall into the behavior of "but Dashew said..." That's all really.

I know it may not sound significant, but that kind of thing was a huge red flag of future issues.

It's not intuitive, but attitude does trump skill.
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Old 12-19-2014, 12:07 PM   #58
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Wxx3, I can't find the original post that fired me up. Presumably I responded so heartily because it sounded like the criticism came from ignorance. I have no problem with disagreements, as long as the basis is understanding. Frequently the strongest rants are from someone who doesn't understand or whom has no grasp of the real information.

My strong response to an opinion is just as rude.

The thing about Dashew's boats is, yes, they were designed for speed to avoid weather, but they also were designed for when that strategy fails, with watertight bulkheads and compartments, 2 engine redundancy, heavy armoured glass windows, thick aluminum plating (4 times as thick as my hull!) drogues, careful fuel filtering and huge water and fuel capacity etc. Oh yes, complete rollover and righting capability.

Generally much more "shippy" than our inland coastal cruisers.

Not a panacea for evil weather but a much improved tool for crossing oceans.
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Old 12-19-2014, 12:19 PM   #59
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... What Dashew has done is design a boat that is fast and efficient, and sometimes fast and efficient is a good way to avoid trouble. It probably isn't the 100% solution to safety at sea, but then again, nothing is.
Not a solution but it does help. The trip from Tonga to NZ is ~1000. Weather systems in the spring/fall go through every 4-5-6 days. Displacement boats (sail or power) traveling ~6-6.5 knots says you're going to "feel" one of the systems. So you try for the best forecast you can and leave on the back of a system and go like hell to NZ but it's still 6 plus days. Dashew's boats traveling at ~11 knots, you're there in less than 4 days. Less time at sea is good!
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Old 12-19-2014, 02:40 PM   #60
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Not a solution but it does help. The trip from Tonga to NZ is ~1000. Weather systems in the spring/fall go through every 4-5-6 days. Displacement boats (sail or power) traveling ~6-6.5 knots says you're going to "feel" one of the systems. So you try for the best forecast you can and leave on the back of a system and go like hell to NZ but it's still 6 plus days. Dashew's boats traveling at ~11 knots, you're there in less than 4 days. Less time at sea is good!
Not wanting to sound too much like a smart ass, (it's the Prosecco talking), but if I wanted to run a ferry service between New Zealand and Tonga, the Dashew is the perfect boat.

Ok I see that.

I'll keep out in mind when I decide to start a new career.

In the meantime, I prefer a boat that I can live on, won't sink under seasonal conditions plus a few standard deviations and I can afford to maintain and put fuel in her.

That simple list reduced to the kadey Krogen.

And as for wx forecasts, as I've said many times, I'm not depending on the accuracy of a wx fcst to wash the car, let alone anything else.
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