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Old 11-28-2012, 11:32 PM   #141
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Thanks for sharing Kevin. Sounds like good plan. With the boat paid off you'll have a bit of a nestegg in that too in case boating loses it's appeal. I'm still working to knock the house mortgage off, so I'm in the opposite situation.

The better news is you're cruising in an amazing boat and while I'm still getting my old gal polished back up.
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Old 11-28-2012, 11:41 PM   #142
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SomeSailor-to answer a prt of your question-our boat is a bit north of $400k but here are our expenses on average-I can't speak to lender costs as we do own it without a mortgage.

Slip-$11,400
Electricity-$900
Insurance-$6,500
Fuel-$9,000 (with twin 154 hp JDs, at 7 knots, we burn about 4.5GPH and average about 500 hours/year)
Oil Changes, general maintenance, etc-$3,000
Annual Haulout-$2,500
Miscellaneous stuff-$4,500

Total-$37,800/year.

We have budgeted our cost of ownership at $40K per year, less than 10%, and in 3 years have not exceeded that.

We did spend about $40K wihen we first bought the boat a few years ago on some electronic upgardes, etc. but have not had to spend anything major on major projects since then. I do as much of the arok on the boat as I can, i only call in a professional when I really need one. So far (knock on teak!) have not really needed to get a lot of outside help.

To us, this is our "second home" and as you can tell from the hours, we use it alo, and in 4 years, it will be our primary home and will be spending its time someplace alot warmer than Shilshole Bay!


THD has very similar numbers to me and my boat is just north of $400k. My fuel, marina and insurance are less. I personally would not finance a boat purchase. BUT, to buy my boat to fulfill a life goal, I made some dramatic changes in my life. You can't have everything. So, I sold my business, but still work in the business I sold, still making a respectable income. We also sold our $525k home and now rent a very modest home with cheap rent. To us a house is just a place to live. Understand though, I had Cancer twice in my mid 20s and had radiation treatment in my abdomen area. My thinking is the treatment could kill me 30 years later. I bought my boat at at age 42 and am now 45. If I tire of the boating life, I will sell it and add those funds to my retirement pot and retire if work gets in the way of life. Bottom line.....I don't want a list of things I wish I did.

On the debt topic, this can cause stress and anxiety in many people and offset the positive boat experience, so I would encourage people to consider this before taking a large loan on a certain depreciating asset.
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Old 11-29-2012, 12:12 AM   #143
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Thanks for sharing Kevin. Sounds like good plan. With the boat paid off you'll have a bit of a nestegg in that too in case boating loses it's appeal. I'm still working to knock the house mortgage off, so I'm in the opposite situation.

The better news is you're cruising in an amazing boat and while I'm still getting my old gal polished back up.

But, you could take out a mortgage if you wanted. You prefer not to and thats a great decision.

As we've both indicated the level of people willing to admit to owing money on their boat is allot lower online than what you see in person on the dock.

The guy 3 slips down from me is an orthadontist. He did my wifes braces, so we know him. He's going to re-fi his house to fund a re-power on his 48' nordic pilothouse (nice boat!). He has no qualms about saying that. Nobody thinks less of him.

When I was in serious discussions with Nordhavn I was told that almost all Nordhavn's are financed. Also its interesting to note that almost all Nordhavns are purchased with the buyers full well knowing they will sell the boat and never pay it off. Nordhavn calls it an "exit plan". Buy the boat, cruise the world for a few years, sell the boat. The difference in price is what it cost you to leve your dream of cruising the world.

Perhaps its an Alaskan thing, or perhaps its an internet thing, but I see no value in telling the world that I paid cash for a super expensive boat, and no shame in telling the world I have a mortgage on it.

Maybe its just us here in Alaska. There's no yacht club posturing here. There's no "Im better than you" on the docks because of the brand of boat you own, or the payment you make on it.

We posture and brag in different ways. For us its the big fish stories. Like the 256lb Halibut that was caught on my 28' Bayliner. Or the could have been world record Ling Cod that my wife caught but we barbequed instead. Now thats posturing that means something.
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Old 11-29-2012, 03:17 AM   #144
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BaldPaul-like you, outside of our boat, we live modestly, certainly compared to many of my peers. We live in a small house, with an old, cheap mortgage that will be paid off before we take off. We drive two old cars that are paid for. We both went through prior careers where we lived pretty much to the max, mortgaged to the max and enjoyed (?) it. but, for us at least, it got old after a few years and we felt tied to what we owned. About 10 years ago, we decided we could enjoy our lives more with a bit less, so we got rid of a lot of stuff (before the crash!), and moved to Seattle fro DC. The boat was always in the plan, but it was not a firm plan and always depended on our being able to finance it. With a lot of other debt, that day would never have come. After realizing what was important to us, and adjusting our lives accordingly, we have been able to come a lot closer to reaching our goals.

I have friends who have spent 7, and in some cases 8, figures on a boat, mostly mortgaged. They may spend 4, 5 6 weekends a year on their boats. Their boats are simply another part of their lifestyle.

For us, and for most here, whether your boat is $5,000 or $5,000,000, it is central to our lifestyle.
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Old 11-29-2012, 07:28 AM   #145
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Lots of interesting stories here and a lot of food for thought. I dipped my toe in the trawler waters in a different manner. I bought an old, cheap, but functional boat with an interest free credit card. Rolled it over onto another interest free card when the first ran out and paid it off when I had played out that string. It was my first experience of using OPM's interest free. It's a very nice feeling, I can see why the banksters are all about working that angle. Now, if I can only figure out how to pull off such a deal for a bigger, newer, nicer boat!
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Old 11-29-2012, 10:09 AM   #146
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Kevin Says:
"Maybe its just us here in Alaska. There's no yacht club posturing here. There's no "Im better than you" on the docks because of the brand of boat you own, or the payment you make on it.

We posture and brag in different ways. --- fish we caught "

I'd much rather talk about brands of boats, equipment and engines than hear all the bragging and blathering about fishing. I know many hard core Alaskans who feel the same. What in the heck do you mean "yacht club posturing," aside from a Rodney Dangerfield movie?
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Old 11-29-2012, 10:26 AM   #147
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Some of you guys are a kick – Talk about POSTURING!

You fellows are even posturing about what you POSTURE about!!

Get over it and simply enjoy your lives with boats a portion thereof.
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Old 11-29-2012, 10:45 AM   #148
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Art

You are correct. But, does this mean no more 500 word essays on gensets and talk about living the good (high taxed) life on the CA hillsides?

PS
My hillsides are higher than yours!!
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Old 11-29-2012, 10:52 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by sunchaser View Post
Kevin Says:
"Maybe its just us here in Alaska. There's no yacht club posturing here. There's no "Im better than you" on the docks because of the brand of boat you own, or the payment you make on it.

We posture and brag in different ways. --- fish we caught "

I'd much rather talk about brands of boats, equipment and engines than hear all the bragging and blathering about fishing. I know many hard core Alaskans who feel the same. What in the heck do you mean "yacht club posturing," aside from a Rodney Dangerfield movie?
''and the pot stirring begins....."

Perhaps Kevin simply meant that boat owners are equal, regardless of vessel...

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Some of you guys are a kick – Talk about POSTURING!

You fellows are even posturing about what you POSTURE about!!

Get over it and simply enjoy your lives with boats a portion thereof.
Well put, Art!

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Art

You are correct. But, does this mean no more 500 word essays on gensets and talk about living the good (high taxed) life on the CA hillsides?

PS
My hillsides are higher than yours!!

BUT- can you get to you boat and be underway as quickly as Art? THAT is the question.....
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Old 11-29-2012, 11:13 AM   #150
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I think the intent of the originator of this thread was to list expenses other than the actual cost of buying the boat with the assumption that a person paying $XXX for a boat had already figured that part out.

Expenses that a new boater might not be aware of.
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Old 11-29-2012, 11:22 AM   #151
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BUT- can you get to you boat and be underway as quickly as Art? THAT is the question.....[/QUOTE]

OMG, I forgot to:
  • Add in personal transportation costs from SLC to Sidney BC
  • Costs for speeding tickets (65 mph on interstates) through the stupid state of Oregon
  • Credit in for no sales or state property taxes on boat
  • Add in higher BC food and beverage costs
  • ETC !!!!!!!!!!!!*****Arrrrggggghhhhhh
This will never end, but I'm still keeping the Da** boat!
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Old 11-29-2012, 11:23 AM   #152
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I ran into a friend of many years yesterday. He had been a boater for 40 years. He has owned most every kind of boat from a Gulf Star trawler, house boat, to a Hatteras motor yacht. His last boat was a 44' sports fisherman. He said that he sold his boat. He figures the cost per year averaged about $28,000.00 for his last boat. He was just not using it much, and has other interests as well. Kinda sad to see him get out as we boated and fished together many times.
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Old 11-29-2012, 11:27 AM   #153
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Being a full time live aboard we tend to view the Eagle a bit different than most boaters. The mortgage/loan payment is usually not considered part of the cost of the boat as that is a personal decision. After 15 years we still have a residual balance on the boat, which we could pay off, but we prefer to max Profit Sharing/401K/IRS, and the interest is a tax deduction.

There is nothing wrong with financing as long as you owe less than what you can sell if for, you have the cash flow for the payments and the cost of ownership. When we original bought the boat it was a financial decision and an opportunity for a great deal as the Eagle is way beyond our needs/wants. We just wanted a dock condo on Lake Union at the time!

Anyway the expenses are;

Moorage – 70 ft slip - $10,000.00
Insurance - Yacht policy 3,000.00
General Maintenance 2,000.00
Improvements/misc. 2,000.00
Diesel to heat 1,500.00
Pump out – weekly 800.00
Diesel – cruise 200.00

Total 19,500.00


As you can see in most cases the moorage is a big % of the cost. But for us its off set by not having a dirt dwelling, and we have not been able to afford a habit. Well, for me maybe shopping and cloths! If we where not a live aboard, we would have a hard time justifying owning the Eagle. If when we move off the Eagle reducing the moorage will be primary.
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Old 11-29-2012, 11:38 AM   #154
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Being a full time live aboard we tend to view the Eagle a bit different than most boaters. The mortgage/loan payment is usually not considered part of the cost of the boat as that is a personal decision. After 15 years we still have a residual balance on the boat, which we could pay off, but we prefer to max Profit Sharing/401K/IRS, and the interest is a tax deduction.

There is nothing wrong with financing as long as you owe less than what you can sell if for, you have the cash flow for the payments and the cost of ownership. When we original bought the boat it was a financial decision and an opportunity for a great deal as the Eagle is way beyond our needs/wants. We just wanted a dock condo on Lake Union at the time!

Anyway the expenses are;

Moorage – 70 ft slip - $10,000.00
Insurance - Yacht policy 3,000.00
General Maintenance 2,000.00
Improvements/misc. 2,000.00
Diesel to heat 1,500.00
Pump out – weekly 800.00
Diesel – cruise 200.00

Total 19,500.00


As you can see in most cases the moorage is a big % of the cost. But for us its off set by not having a dirt dwelling, and we have not been able to afford a habit. Well, for me maybe shopping and cloths! If we where not a live aboard, we would have a hard time justifying owning the Eagle. If when we move off the Eagle reducing the moorage will be primary.

We're in the same boat, so to speak. We do have a mortgage on the boat, and it's no more than rent on a small apartment, so it's not really a factor. For us, it's the lifestyle that is the driving factor.

Phil, where are you on Lake Union? We are by Boatworld on the west side of the lake....
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Old 11-29-2012, 12:02 PM   #155
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A lot of people that borrow money to buy a boat have the funds to buy their toys outright but don't do it because it doesn't make financial sense. If your money is making say 8% and you can borrow for 6%, it would be stupid to pay cash.
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Old 11-29-2012, 01:27 PM   #156
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Art

You are correct. But, does this mean no more 500 word essays on gensets and talk about living the good (high taxed) life on the CA hillsides?

PS
My hillsides are higher than yours!!
Touché - Sort Of!
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Old 11-29-2012, 01:46 PM   #157
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For me it was easy. I'm a working man. I've
I will say that a more expensive boat is not any better, or any worse than any other boat. The people down the float with the million dollar + 58 Nordhavn are no happier than I am. I am no happier than my slip mate with his 1970's converted fish boat. At least in Alaska there is no pretense. We are all equal out on the water, and we all enjoy our boats.
cost of ones toys hurts in relation to the financial solvency of the individual. Lots of money means a bigger toy with bigger expenses. The fun factor is not porportional to the dollars spent but is porportional to the strain of ownership. Strain of ownership is the degree to which one has stretched ones resources in order to pay for and maintain the new toy. If the toy results in constant presure from the new expense then the fun factor goes down. The trick is to arrange toy expenses to be at a level at which one dosent give them a thought because at that level the fun per dollar is the highest.
Making the commitment in a way such as you have keeps the strain factor low and is a very prudent way to make the investment. You were immune to, and comfortable with, the strain of the home mortgage over time so making the boat purchase at this time resulted in little strain allowing one to get the most fun per buck!

Remember my Jonah story..
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Old 11-29-2012, 03:04 PM   #158
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Kevin Says:
"Maybe its just us here in Alaska. There's no yacht club posturing here. There's no "Im better than you" on the docks because of the brand of boat you own, or the payment you make on it.

We posture and brag in different ways. --- fish we caught "

I'd much rather talk about brands of boats, equipment and engines than hear all the bragging and blathering about fishing. I know many hard core Alaskans who feel the same. What in the heck do you mean "yacht club posturing," aside from a Rodney Dangerfield movie?
Gosh, just having fun, but since you mention it, there is a certain amount of yacht club posturing that people in other locals (besides Alaska) have described to me, in the form of "my boat is better, or bigger, or more expensive, than yours" comments and inuendo dockside.

In Alaska we are all the same. Alaska is the great equalizer for that kind of thing. Here we do not care what boat you have (in general), What you do with the boat is what counts.

Any "posturing" we do is really just good natured fun about the fish we catch.

Quote:
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Some of you guys are a kick – Talk about POSTURING!

You fellows are even posturing about what you POSTURE about!!

Get over it and simply enjoy your lives with boats a portion thereof.
No, we are describing the costs of boat ownbership, and questioning why people tend to omit from the discussion the cost of boat purchase which is a very real cost. The purchase or payment cost is also very valid in terms of maintenance costs.

For example, buy a newer (probably more expensive boat) and you for a good period of time have lower maintenance costs, but higher payment or opportunity costs, which combined make up the total cost of the boating hobby.

Buy a less expensive boat (in general) and you have higher maintenance cost (in general), which offsets the lower purchase price and needs to be taken into account of to determine (for the OP) the overall cost of boating.

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''and the pot stirring begins....."

Perhaps Kevin simply meant that boat owners are equal, regardless of vessel...
Thanks Pete!
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Old 11-29-2012, 03:20 PM   #159
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We're in the same boat, so to speak. We do have a mortgage on the boat, and it's no more than rent on a small apartment, so it's not really a factor. For us, it's the lifestyle that is the driving factor.

Phil, where are you on Lake Union? We are by Boatworld on the west side of the lake....

We are not on Lake Union. For the last three years we been moored in Everett, where I work. My wife use to work in Seattle, so I had the reverse commute. Originally we moored at 1900 West View, behind the old back Elks building. Now it’s a Chine’s restaurant. The we moved to the south end of Lake Union, Ocean Alexander marina.

Several years ago the State of Washington and City of Seattle land and use dept decided to regulate against live aboard. Got into a big battle legal/public battle. Long story! So make sure you get involved with the marina, keep informed as to what is going on as the city and stare are still pressuring marinas. I go to the Port of Everett monthly meetings as the port of Everett has some grant ideas?
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Old 11-29-2012, 09:22 PM   #160
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Long thread and I haven't read all posts but would like to contribute so folks can get an idea of what us bottom feeders do. I paid 75k for a 35' trawler that was in decent shape. Payments, slip fees and upkeep were about 1k a month...I did all the labor. She brought in about 12k a year from being in charter service, but she was in the water over 300 miles away and I worried too much about her.

Today I cruise in a 40 year old 28' houseboat, and although she's not a true trawler, she can act like one -- sleeps 7 with all the amenities of the previous 35 footer, 2 to 3 gallons per hour at 6 to 8 mph. Papers say she'll do 30 mph, but I've only had her to about 25 briefly; we cruise at 6 - 8 mph. Pics here from the eBay auction.
https://picasaweb.google.com/1019668...08584190965266

Here's the numbers for Big Duck
Boat ~11k - winning eBay bid
Bringing her to SC from Las Vegas ~2k
Getting boat/trailer water ready ~7k

Engine and outdrive maint ~.5k
Boat maint ~.5k
Trailer maint ~.5k (includes tires)
Insurance - $350
Personal Property taxes - 0
slip fee - 0
haul/bottom paint - 0
I used to keep meticulous records of expenses so I could refer to them when I got older, but now that I am older I don't care, so I don't really keep track any more...these are all gut numbers.

So, for less than $2,000/year she not only satisfies our water passion, but makes a great travel trailer as well. Of course we need to figure in 8 - 10 mpg for the van while towing, but never doing motels (or campgrounds) makes up for a little lousy mileage -- the joy for me though, is the elimination of the "Where should we stay?" fiasco...should we spend $100+ for the night, or gamble that we'll luck out and not get bed bugs or have drug deals going on in the next room - I heard hollering and screaming in the motel room next to mine and when the cops came I heard thru the wall that a man was stabbed to death next door. We've never had a problem of any kind in a WalMart parking lot.

Most of my boating friends say I should spend some effort/time/money 'cleaning her up'. To them, boats are something to be proud of, or maybe something flashy like jewelry. Big Duck is not pretty by any stretch of the imagination, but pretty costs time, money and worry and as long as The Duck will keep us safe and comfortable, we'd rather use those resources for adventure .
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