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Old 11-26-2012, 09:40 PM   #81
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ah, maybe i'm mistaken then. At the mention of sewage in the bay San Francisco pops in my mind and the variance they have to dump untreated sewage in the bay which sets me off.
I apolojize for my jumping to conclusions. Thanks for straightening me out
Best wishes
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Originally Posted by Marin
Don't think that's what Art is saying here. I think he's saying that there is no charge for using whatever pumpout facilities he uses. The situation is the same in our marina as I described in my earlier post.


Thanks, Marin... owe you one!

Britt – Always good to put mind in gear before lips/fingers in motion. Yes, by free “pump out” – I mean free at our dock and free where we fuel up. If our 30 gal black water tank gets loaded while at anchor, which has occurred twice in two years, there is a roving “pump out” service that is just a phone call away and shows in a few hours while servicing other boats’ needs. $40 for each time... didn’t feel that minimal cost need be added to our overall annual cost; I call it an incidental expense that simply fold into other costs mentioned in my breakdown on post # 13 of this thread’s first page.
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Old 11-26-2012, 10:07 PM   #82
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Can we please keep this thread on topic? I was thinking when I created it that it would be a nice one stop place for the basic fixed costs for others to learn from. Thanks!
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Old 11-26-2012, 10:27 PM   #83
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Can we please keep this thread on topic? I was thinking when I created it that it would be a nice one stop place for the basic fixed costs for others to learn from. Thanks!


Sorry, Daddyo. The thread creep has shown up again

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Old 11-27-2012, 12:32 AM   #84
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I suspect that the 10% of purchase price rule-of-thumb will only give an approximation for boats in the range of a few tens of thousands to a few hundred thousand. This may well be 80% of all pleasure boats though.

At the bottom end it will be more than 10%, at the top end I just have to guess (not my league) but I would expect the % will be lower, in part because those boats are newer as well. This is why its good to see some real numbers for annual costs.
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Old 11-27-2012, 12:56 AM   #85
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Some ownership numbers I happen to remembe:

Replacement of engine mounts on both engines--- two days for two mechanics, parts plus labor cost about 100/hr, total $4,000.

Fabrication and installation of new exhaust systems including new elbows, custom-made fiberglass lift mufflers, and muffler mounting platforms, about $5,000.

New battery installation including replacing two 8Ds with 6 6vdc golf cart batteries, associated installation and wiring costs, about $1,200.

Complete re-pitching, re-diametering (is that a term?), and balancing props, about $650 total..

Replacement of one prop shaft, installation of larger split couplers on both shafts, alignment adjusting, about $2,500.

Streightening the other prop shaft, including removal and replacement and engine alignment, about $700.

Replacement of all the strut-mounted cutless bearings and shaft packing (done when prop shafts were already out of the boat), about $1,000.

Rebuilding toilets several times over the last 14 years, about $200 per rebuild kit.

Re-grooving and re-seaming main deck (12 years ago), $3,000 fixed bid cost, we paid an extra $500 because the shipwright ended up having to spend more time on the job than he'd anticipated.

New radar/plotter, new stand-alone plotter, three new radios, new loud-hailer/intercom, antennas, etc.,probably close to $10,000 overall.

New anchor windlass, about $4,000 (we did the installation and wiring).

New anchor, just shy of $1,000 seven years ago.

Injection pipe replacement and installation labor, about $500.

New raw water pumps to replace stock raw water pumps and pump drive couplers, and installation labor, about $1,000.

New motor for dinghy, about $2,000.

Haulout, pressure wash, prep, and bottom paint cost (normally every two years), about $1,500.

Labor cost for yards, diesel shop, electrical shop, etc. are right around $100/hr these days.
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Old 11-27-2012, 01:11 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Marin View Post
Some ownership numbers I happen to remembe:

Replacement of engine mounts on both engines--- two days for two mechanics, parts plus labor cost about 100/hr, total $4,000.

Fabrication and installation of new exhaust systems including new elbows, custom-made fiberglass lift mufflers, and muffler mounting platforms, about $5,000.

New battery installation including replacing two 8Ds with 6 6vdc golf cart batteries, associated installation and wiring costs, about $1,200.

Complete re-pitching, re-diametering (is that a term?), and balancing props, about $650 total..

Replacement of one prop shaft, installation of larger split couplers on both shafts, alignment adjusting, about $2,500.

Streightening the other prop shaft, including removal and replacement and engine alignment, about $700.

Replacement of all the strut-mounted cutless bearings and shaft packing (done when prop shafts were already out of the boat), about $1,000.

Rebuilding toilets several times over the last 14 years, about $200 per rebuild kit.

Re-grooving and re-seaming main deck (12 years ago), $3,000 fixed bid cost, we paid an extra $500 because the shipwright ended up having to spend more time on the job than he'd anticipated.

New radar/plotter, new stand-alone plotter, three new radios, new loud-hailer/intercom, antennas, etc.,probably close to $10,000 overall.

New anchor windlass, about $4,000 (we did the installation and wiring).

New anchor, just shy of $1,000 seven years ago.

Injection pipe replacement and installation labor, about $500.

New raw water pumps to replace stock raw water pumps and pump drive couplers, and installation labor, about $1,000.

New motor for dinghy, about $2,000.

Haulout, pressure wash, prep, and bottom paint cost (normally every two years), about $1,500.

Labor cost for yards, diesel shop, electrical shop, etc. are right around $100/hr these days.
So, do tell Marin - You still feel 10% annual ownership to boat price covers the bases?
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Old 11-27-2012, 01:50 AM   #87
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We've had the boat 14-plus years now. Some years have been a lot more than 10% of the purchase price and some far, far less. So overall, and based on a very rough approximation, I would say yes, it seems to be averaging out in the neighborhood of 10% of the purchase price per year.

It would be more than 10% per year average if we hired all the work we do ourselves out at today's shop rates, however. But in talking to other owners on our dock and in our club, I think we do about as much work ourselves as they do. I only know one person who hires virtually everything that is done to his boat out. On the other hand, his is much newer GB, so perhaps his ownership costs are still only about 10% of the purchase price.
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Old 11-27-2012, 06:39 AM   #88
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I greatly appreciate Marin's post #98. It adds substance to miscellaneous boating expenses that certainly add up and are not necessarily recurring.

Looking at yachtworld, it's easy to find listed boats (same make/model, similarly equipped) where the price of the boat can vary by a factor of 3 to 4. If older boat A is $100,000 and newer boat B is 400,000, I have a hard time thinking that boat A will only require $10K per year and boat B will require $40K per year.

This has been a great thread to see real world expenses from folks who have been doing this for a while. Marin's post #98 adds real world numbers, and adds much to the value (for me) of this discussion.

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Old 11-27-2012, 07:11 AM   #89
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Sometimes it can be summed up as....boating versus yachting..

then there is....

Cruising/active boating versus dock condo...

Self repair versus marina repair...

S the numbers can be all over the map...a new boatowner more needs to nail down his/her abilities and lifestyle more than anything to get a realistic answer.

Once that is done one of our models might be close...or maybe not.
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Old 11-27-2012, 11:04 AM   #90
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There is a wide range of a varying scale conundrum regarding using any specific percentage annual use cost “average” (i.e. 10%) to the original “fully paid for” purchase price of a boat; 1st time boat owners need to understand cost comparisons on a similar condition and style used 38’ boat (new boat cost comparisons and financed boat cost comparisons are a whole different boat-cost-game):

1. Used 38’ boat purchase price of $30K at $10K average annual usage cost... i.e. docking, repair, fuel, new items etc fees = 33.3...%
2. Used 38’ boat purchase price of $60K at $10K average annual usage cost... i.e. docking, repair, fuel, new items etc fees = 16.5...%
3. Used 38’ boat purchase price of $100K at $10K average annual usage cost... i.e. docking, repair, fuel, new items etc fees = 10.0...%

I use these simple figures (on 38’ boats that are in similar condition, using same annual use fees, but with widely varied purchase prices) to let newbie boat owners understand that annual use fees as an annual percentage of their original boat cost can vary hugely by their percent yet remain in a basically similar monthly dollar expense range. Today’s unsettled boat-value market can amount to wide swings in purchase price of similar boats, often depending on location of boat and PO’s financial/life condition. However, with that said, the annual use fees may stay in similar dollar-cost range due to pressures on yacht harbors to keep their prices attractive.

On post # 13 of page one in this thread I depict my general expenses that come to Total Annual Cost of $7,700 for $148 Bucks Per Week to own and enjoy our craft out and about on the water. Our Tolly, needing little in upgrades, was in great condition from day one of our ownership and we keep her that way. Our purchase price was affordable... due to PO’s circumstances/events. So, our reasonable $7,700 annual use-cost is far from 10% of the original boat price to us.
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Old 11-27-2012, 11:22 AM   #91
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There is a wide range of a varying scale conundrum regarding using any specific percentage annual use cost “average” (i.e. 10%) to the original “fully paid for” purchase price of a boat; 1st time boat owners need to understand cost comparisons on a similar condition and style used 38’ boat (new boat cost comparisons and financed boat cost comparisons are a whole different boat-cost-game):

1. Used 38’ boat purchase price of $30K at $10K average annual usage cost... i.e. docking, repair, fuel, new items etc fees = 33.3...%
2. Used 38’ boat purchase price of $60K at $10K average annual usage cost... i.e. docking, repair, fuel, new items etc fees = 16.5...%
3. Used 38’ boat purchase price of $100K at $10K average annual usage cost... i.e. docking, repair, fuel, new items etc fees = 10.0...%

I use these simple figures (on 38’ boats that are in similar condition, using same annual use fees, but with widely varied purchase prices) to let newbie boat owners understand that annual use fees as an annual percentage of their original boat cost can vary hugely by their percent yet remain in a basically similar monthly dollar expense range. Today’s unsettled boat-value market can amount to wide swings in purchase price of similar boats, often depending on location of boat and PO’s financial/life condition. However, with that said, the annual use fees may stay in similar dollar-cost range due to pressures on yacht harbors to keep their prices attractive.

On post # 13 of page one in this thread I depict my general expenses that come to Total Annual Cost of $7,700 for $148 Bucks Per Week to own and enjoy our craft out and about on the water. Our Tolly, needing little in upgrades, was in great condition from day one of our ownership and we keep her that way. Our purchase price was affordable... due to PO’s circumstances/events. So, our reasonable $7,700 annual use-cost is far from 10% of the original boat price to us.
she is a bargin at 148 per week. Thats hardly more than a slip rental.
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Old 11-27-2012, 11:40 AM   #92
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~200 hrs/yr

$300-500 fuel
$200 registration
$1200 insurance
$8900 moorage (covered 50')
$5,000 - $10,000 maintenance/upgrades/cool toys

Boat is paid for, but we figure in cost of ownership at about $15K-$20K a year.

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Old 11-27-2012, 12:04 PM   #93
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Some Sailor

Our fuel bill for about 5 gph, all uses in, is about $17 - 20/hour. Yours is $2/hour. That is one very efficient vessel you have - hybrid via solar panels?
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Old 11-27-2012, 12:06 PM   #94
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Looking at yachtworld, it's easy to find listed boats (same make/model, similarly equipped) where the price of the boat can vary by a factor of 3 to 4. If older boat A is $100,000 and newer boat B is 400,000, I have a hard time thinking that boat A will only require $10K per year and boat B will require $40K per year.
That ten-percent-per-year formula has to be tempered with logic. A newer or better maintained boat will generally require less maintenance and repairs than an older boat that has been neglected or is simply experiencing "older boat" syndrome with issues that have not yet been addressed.

However....... A number of years ago I co-authored a coffee table cookbook with the executive chef of a 120' corporate yacht named Daedalus. (No, I did not write the cooking part of the book). The yacht, originally named A and Eagle, had been designed by Philip Rhodes and built in 1966 by Abeking & Rasumssen in Germany for Augie Busch, the then-CEO of Anheuser Busch. Over the many months I worked on the project I got to know the captain, Hal Burchard, who had hired me for the job and whose company managed the Daedalus for the corporation that now owned it, quite well.

One day I asked Hal if it cost a lot more to maintain a 1966 steel vessel that had, among other things, the first retractable active stabilizers ever used on a vessel this size, two huge Cat diesels, two big Northern Lights generators, a complete restaurant-style galley, regular flush toilets throughout, multiple staterooms, all sorts of electronic entertainment and business systems and all the boat systems associated with keeping all this stuff operational.

Hal pointed to a brand new, even larger yacht that was being commissioned at the next dock over and said, "That boat is brand new. But it has the same pumps and hoses and gaskets and light bulbs and faucet washers and electronics this boat has. So from day one the systems on his boat will start wearing out just like the systems on this boat are wearing out. So the cost to maintain his boat will be pretty much the same as the cost to maintain this one."

One difference Hal pointed out was that his 1966 boat had had all the bugs worked out. Every boat has surprises, he said. But by now he and his crew had experienced just about every surprise the Daedalus could come up with and had long since dealt with them. The owner and crew of the big new yacht next door were at the bottom of the learning curve for their boat, and many of the surprises they were in store for would be very expensive to deal with.

So old does not always automatically equate to more expensive, although there are so many variables it is impossible to come up with a hard and fast rule in this regard.
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Old 11-27-2012, 12:41 PM   #95
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Some Sailor

Our fuel bill for about 5 gph, all uses in, is about $17 - 20/hour. Yours is $2/hour. That is one very efficient vessel you have - hybrid via solar panels?
Same thing caught my eye...
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Old 11-27-2012, 12:42 PM   #96
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The yacht, originally named A and Eagle, had been designed by Philip Rhodes and built in 1966 by Abeking & Rasumssen in Germany for Augie Busch, the then-CEO of Anheuser Busch. Over the many months I worked on the project I got to know the captain, Hal Burchard, who had hired me for the job and whose company managed the Daedalus for the corporation that now owned it, quite well.
Marin, I was aboard that boat in the early 70s. It was tied up in Morehead City, NC at the Sanitary Seafood Restaurant dock. It was then the A & Eagle. I was talking to the engineer. He asked permission from the captain, and showed me around. They had a big mahogany dining table that must have sat about 16 people. I believe he said that it was around 137'. I later saw it tied up in Annapolis with a bunch of elected members of Congress on board for cocktails and dinner. That was a hard working boat.

In the 60s I was fortunate enough to supply much of the materials that went into A. G. Bush's home in Winter Park, FL. Quite a place.
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Old 11-27-2012, 01:37 PM   #97
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I believe he said that it was around 137'.

The A and Eagle/Daedalus is 119'-3" LOA x 22'-6" beam x 5'-6" draft. Yes, that draft figure is correct and was one of Rhodes' design requirements. How he achieved it is an interesting story in itself.

The boat was sold a few years ago to a fellow in Vancouver who I'm told has or is in the process of totally restoring her hull which was getting too thin (the eventual consequences of that very shallow draft).

The previous corporate owner replaced her with a 150' yacht built in Seattle by Delta Marine. This boat has also been named Daedalus. The original Daedalus was always skating on thin ice with regards to the Jones Act. The new US-built Daedalus has eliminated that issue.
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Old 11-27-2012, 04:46 PM   #98
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........Looking at yachtworld, it's easy to find listed boats (same make/model, similarly equipped) where the price of the boat can vary by a factor of 3 to 4. If older boat A is $100,000 and newer boat B is 400,000, I have a hard time thinking that boat A will only require $10K per year and boat B will require $40K per year. .....
My thoughts exactly and why I believe the 10% of cost estimate is useless.

A brand new boat should have near zero repair costs while a 30 year old boat might cost as much as the purchase price in repairs over a year or two. Slip costs are the same for a $400K boat or a $40K boat.

Some owners are willing and able to do most maintenance and repair work themselves while others do no maintenance and repair work themselves and may even pay for cleaning. Slip and tax rates vary wildly from one area to another. My 31 day cruise cost me $1K in fuel. If I had gone faster, it might have cost $4K for the same trip.
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Old 11-27-2012, 09:22 PM   #99
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Coming in late on the discussion, however for what it's worth, we allocate about $22,000 per year to maintain the boat.That's about 13% of the purchase price.

This allows for the smaller unforeseen expenses such as antifoul, replacing pumps, repairing the loos,Eutectics TV antenna's etc. It also covers the annual engine servicing (2) and a generator(1), approx $2500.Also covered is the mooring fees of $10,000, insurance $1,800

What not included in the above are the large one off costs such as the rebuild of the port running gear, engine ,gear box & injectors at about $25,000. Replacing the main deck, which included new core and teak deck at about $15,000(we did all the labour ourselves)

AND if that doesn't scare you off the PO who owned the boat for just under two years spent over $100,000 bringing it up to scratch!
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Old 11-27-2012, 09:54 PM   #100
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Andy G, nice to see some real world numbers. Five pages ago the OP was at $4500/year and now you are easily at 4 to 5 times that for a similar sized boat. For the unitiated, once again, this is a rewarding but not cheap pastime.

Today, if you buy a new vessel, figure about 25 -30% depreciation in the first two years and 35 - 45% after 5 years. That is what is coming out on my current boat search. So depreciation, if not yet figured into your yearly costs, is a very big number.
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