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Old 11-25-2012, 12:08 AM   #41
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A wooden-boat perspective

My Ed Monk-designed 39-foot converted fishing trawler plugged along at a solid 8 knots burning a mere 2 GPH. Even in a busy year, my fuel bill was under $2,500 or so. The (single) engine was an old Cummins 555 (which never failed).

Moorage was by far the biggest single expense, even up here in the relatively unpopulated Gulf Islands (about $4,600 last year, I think).

Haul outs, which, when you own a wooden boat, should be an annual affair, ran about $1,400 including zincs, bottom paint, oil, filters, labor, etc. (You FRP guys can let things slide a bit!)

Paint (this was a woodie, after all) probably cost me $300 a year, including brushes, tape, etc.

Insurance was about $1,100.

Miscellaneous (failed pumps, batteries, etc.) -- maybe $2,400 per year, possibly less. I did most of the needed repairs, structural and otherwise.

Grand Total: About $1,000 a month.
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Old 11-25-2012, 12:27 AM   #42
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Interesting to me that one of the ongoing questions on this forum is how to burn the least possible amount of fuel, yet fuel costs are one of the lowest of the "fixed" costs. Many of y'all could double your fuel usage and not really feel it.
I'm glad you are interested in our interest as to how to burn the least amount of fuel. Please understand that it is not only about the "Annual Cost of Fuel" our threads/posts (other than this one) represent... but just as important, or even more importantly, our discussions often silently represent the increased range of travel that reduced fuel usage enables (higher nmpg capabilities for our boats). In this thread the fuel costs represent best efforts to use fuel as desired and their fuel cost amounts are a true piece of each contributor's boat ownership’s annual budget.

i.e. My Toy-Cruiser Boat (sometimes referred to as a Trawler - LOL)

- 17 knots 200 miles maximum travel
- 7.5 knots with both engines running 400 max miles travel
- 6 knots with one engine running 600 max miles travel

Mileage #'s above represent slack tide. Travel with the current could well increase these figures and against it would thusly decrease them. I travel the speed that suites me depending on many items of the cruise/day.
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Old 11-25-2012, 12:36 AM   #43
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Don't know but in Washington "all" we pay is the annual registration fee which diminishes as the boat gets older.
CA, per boat - $20 bi-annual registration / 1% boat value annual use tax (dininishes as boat ages)
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Old 11-25-2012, 12:39 AM   #44
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I thought the slip costs for most folks were amazing, and must have taken some hunting down. I quit mine in Puget Sound (Edmonds) when going onto the hard for a refit. But it would have annualized at $10,500 incl elec and liveaboard.
We pay the current rate for a 45' slip in Squalicum Marina in Bellingham. There have been several liveaboards on our dock over the years (there are two right now). So far as I know there are no additional charges for being a liveaboard in this marina. We have never heard any of the liveaboards on our dock mention any sort of additional fee. If you live aboard a boat in a 45' slip, you pay what we do-- $4,800 a year plus power.
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Old 11-25-2012, 12:47 AM   #45
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We pay the current rate for a 45' slip in Squalicum Marina in Bellingham. There have been several liveaboards on our dock over the years (there are two right now). So far as I know there are no additional charges for being a liveaboard in this marina. We have never heard any of the liveaboards on our dock mention any sort of additional fee. If you live aboard a boat in a 45' slip, you pay what we do-- $4,800 a year plus power.
Liveaoard (LA) in Marin County CA generally pay 2X (or more) over those of us who simply dock our boats. Our gated marina in San Joaquin County (deep inside SF Delta) allows no LA. Other marinas there do... again at an additional cost
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Old 11-25-2012, 12:55 AM   #46
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Interesting to me that one of the ongoing questions on this forum is how to burn the least possible amount of fuel, yet fuel costs are one of the lowest of the "fixed" costs. Many of y'all could double your fuel usage and not really feel it.
Doug, I think we're just trying to rationalize our slow cruise speed by focusing on the fuel savings. In reality, if we could go fast, (like Moonstruck) we would. Then we'd be sticking our chests out while bragging about our top speed.

Before paying off my loan, my annual costs were $15,300 per year including fuel ($1000), maintenance ($700), slip ($5000), loan ($5850), insurance ($660), property tax ($650), and improvements ($1500-2000).

Now that the big improvements are paid for and my loan is paid off, my projected annual costs come out to about $8500 per year. That's $163 per week for the lifestyle choice. I figure if I was a golfer, I'd probably spend that much on golf. If I was a drunk, I'd probably spend more than that in a bar. I, too, used to smoke and as a reward for quitting in 2000 bought my first boat in 2001. The money I saved from smoking has gone to a good cause and I'm that much healthier because of it.
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Old 11-25-2012, 01:03 AM   #47
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Re. liveaboard cost in Squalicum Marina, Bellingham. I just looked it up and there is a liveaboard fee in addition to the standard slip fee. The fee is $40 a month. The 2000+ slip marina allows a maximum of 100 liveaboards and there are currently no vacancies.
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Old 11-25-2012, 01:14 AM   #48
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CA, per boat - $20 bi-annual registration / 1% boat value annual use tax (dininishes as boat ages)
It's more than 1 percent. There are also bonds and other fees depending on jurisdiction. For my Coot:

1 pct tax limitation $2,201.77
sc fld state wtr ph zone ben#1 $44.03
vjo usd a 20002 gof refunding $144.31
vallejo usd measure a s 2002 $35.42
scc gog series 2005 refunding $37.67
vallejo usd measure a s 2004 $27.70
vallejo usd measure a -s2006 $14.27
scc gob series 2006b $6.69
total --- $2,511.86
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Old 11-25-2012, 01:47 AM   #49
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This information is very valuable to me. I have been preparing myself for the increased cost of owning a 40-44 foot boat over the current trailerable 27 foot. I've been estimating $10K to $12K for annual costs, not including upgrades and major repairs. It looks like I may need to adjust that budget upwards a little.

It appears that moorage is the single biggest cost, far outweighing the cost of fuel. Property tax can be another big one. I guess I need to factor in the tax but I don't think its that much here in Washington.
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Old 11-25-2012, 08:41 AM   #50
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And for the financially distressed lurkers;

26' Pilothouse/Tug/Trawler

Launch & Haul Out - 0.00
Storage - 0.00
Liability Insurance - $100.00
Dockage - $300.00 (gift payment)
Registration - $93.75
Fuel - $2.75/hr.

Misc. Maintenance - $200.00
R/R Heat Exchanger- $460.00 (one time cost)
New Isotherm - $480.00 (one time cost)
Future Upgrades - $1,000.00/yr.
Discussions with too many Captains that miscalculated- Priceless

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Old 11-25-2012, 09:20 AM   #51
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Doug Cole and Marin pretty well reflect my thoughts regarding fuel burn chat that permeates the TF. People with small boats brag about how little fuel they use as do those who choose to go at 6 knots in an easy 8+ knot boat. Ok, I get it but gosh let it be!

Good for the low fuel consumed obsessed crowd on their chosen craft and light hand on the throttle. But when newbies then ask "what should I buy," the out pouring of go slow comments overwhelms the common sense other costs, sucking in the initially gullible who quickly find out their 120HP Lehman in a 41' fixer upper boat has become a money pit.

Like poker, boating can be a great deal of fun with untold pitfalls and rewards, but bring money to the table and hire Jennifer's husband to keep the books.
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Old 11-25-2012, 09:55 AM   #52
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When I had a trawler that would cruise 7 knots at about 1 1/2 to 2 gal/hr, I was the only trawler in the marina. The house boaters would give me a hard time about slow speeds. One house boater was particularly obnoxious about it. He had a big house boat powered by a couple of large Crusader gassers. Because of the high fuel burn he very seldom left the dock. We were out most of the time we were on the boat.

One morning walking down the dock I was not in the mood for such comments. He shouted out, "exactly how fast does your boat cruise". I stopped put my elbows on his bow rail and pondered the question. I finally said, " that after careful calculations, I figure my boat cruises exactly 7 knots faster than your boat". He never made another comment about it.

When Marin said 26-27 gal per hour it hit close to home. That is what Moonstruck burns at cruise. However she is making 26-27 knots for 1 mpg doing it. One of the reasons I bought the boat was to make more destinations possible in the time allotted for the cruise. She does that superbly. As has been stated, fuel is probably the smallest cost of owning her.

Now, where is that thread about "over powered boats"? I need just a little more horse power.:-)
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Old 11-25-2012, 11:32 AM   #53
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A very interesting read, devoid of the common blanket statement: "It costs 10% of the purchase price annually."
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Old 11-25-2012, 12:02 PM   #54
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A very interesting read, devoid of the common blanket statement: "It costs 10% of the purchase price annually."
That's commonly quoted, but it is not closely related to reality. There are far too many variables.
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Old 11-25-2012, 12:02 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Budds Outlet View Post
This information is very valuable to me. I have been preparing myself for the increased cost of owning a 40-44 foot boat over the current trailerable 27 foot. I've been estimating $10K to $12K for annual costs, not including upgrades and major repairs. It looks like I may need to adjust that budget upwards a little.

It appears that moorage is the single biggest cost, far outweighing the cost of fuel. Property tax can be another big one. I guess I need to factor in the tax but I don't think its that much here in Washington.

A big part of large boar ownership is paying for the boat.

Here on TF there is the often spoken crowd that says to never owe money on a boat. That is one way to do it and I completely respect that school of thought.

I am on the other side of that. I have/had enough cash dollars to buy a lower priced boat but wanted something more. That means I have a mortgage on my boat.

While my boat was different in that I bought a repo for cheap (so I have a smaller mortgage) I had to dump over a hunderd K of my own money into it to bring it up to par. So, mine is different but lets take the average large yacht and discuss the costs of buying the boat.

If you take a large yacht with a selling price of say $250,000 you can expect to have to put 20% or so down on the boat in order to secure a loan at a decent interest rate. Thats $50K out of pocket at closing.

Then you have a $200,000 mortgage to deal with. You have the ability to go with a national lender which can loan up to 20 years on a boat. At 5% that loan will result in a payment of approx $1320. A 20 year loan is risky though since the boat will go down in value, leaving you up upside down for a very long time.

If you go with a 12 year loan you'll make a payment of $1850. You can also go with your local credit union which often makes life easier. Thats allot more payment but you'll be allot less upside down if anf when you decide to sell.

So, to buy a larger boat you either have to buy a boat you can pay cash for, which means a lower price boat generally, or you have to make a payment on that boat which will be the largest part of your boating expenses.
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Old 11-25-2012, 12:05 PM   #56
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CW,
I was given the 10% of purchase price information when I bought my first boat and annual expenses and maintenance have been pretty close to that on both of the boats that I have owned. The first boat was 25' and this one is 51' loa.

When buying our present boat, I was told by a very experienced boating friend that I would spend 25% of the purchase cost in the first couple of years upgrading the boat to fit our needs. Because we were buying a 3 year old boat, I didn't believe him. Two years later I tallied the costs of upgrades and it was almost exactly 25%. These weren't required expenses, they were upgrades to make the boat what my wife and I wanted it to be.

I'm not saying that everyone is going to do this, but be aware that the desire to adapt a boat to your style and needs can cost a lot the first few years. One other expense we have because we charter our boat is increased wear and tear. I budget $5,000 a year for that expense, but have needed only a fraction of that so far. The balance of that money stays in an account to pay for any large unforeseen expenses related to the charter business.
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Old 11-25-2012, 02:11 PM   #57
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CW,
I was given the 10% of purchase price information when I bought my first boat and annual expenses and maintenance have been pretty close to that on both of the boats that I have owned. The first boat was 25' and this one is 51' loa.

When buying our present boat, I was told by a very experienced boating friend that I would spend 25% of the purchase cost in the first couple of years upgrading the boat to fit our needs. Because we were buying a 3 year old boat, I didn't believe him. Two years later I tallied the costs of upgrades and it was almost exactly 25%. These weren't required expenses, they were upgrades to make the boat what my wife and I wanted it to be.

I'm not saying that everyone is going to do this, but be aware that the desire to adapt a boat to your style and needs can cost a lot the first few years. One other expense we have because we charter our boat is increased wear and tear. I budget $5,000 a year for that expense, but have needed only a fraction of that so far. The balance of that money stays in an account to pay for any large unforeseen expenses related to the charter business.
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I like the look of your Tolly... good to see another Tolly on TF!

She a 44. 45 or 48'? We might upsize from our 1977 34' Tolly t c to a larger t c Tolly. What year is yours and what speed is your cruise? Also, your engines are?

Happy Tolly Boating Daze! Cheers, Art
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Old 11-25-2012, 03:22 PM   #58
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When Marin said 26-27 gal per hour it hit close to home. That is what Moonstruck burns at cruise. However she is making 26-27 knots for 1 mpg doing it. One of the reasons I bought the boat was to make more destinations possible in the time allotted for the cruise. She does that superbly. As has been stated, fuel is probably the smallest cost of owning her.

Now, where is that thread about "over powered boats"? I need just a little more horse power.:-)
Howdy Don - Happy Holiday Season and Merry Christmas!

Speaking bout... "... over powered boats" and "I need just a little more horse power"

What is the loaded weight of Moonstruck? Our Tolly fully loaded is 21-22K lbs. Your 1 mpg at 26-27 knot cruise is the same mileage as our 1 mpg at 16-17 knot cruise, and, your extra 10 mph cruising speed at same 1 mpg interests me (ain't increased planning speeds great!). I have a splendid marine mechanic (close family friend) that also is a high performance race car engine mechanic/developer. Although my twin screw gassers aboard Tolly provide approx 1/2 your total hp (i.e. currently 510 hp on our Tolly), the mechanic swears that by his full-rebuild on our 350 cid gas engines he could bring our total horsepower to 700 +. As our engines are low hour and in perf condition I'm in no rush to pull/rebuild for higher hp, as well as the need to then increase trany size and shaft/prop match. But – IF – I felt convinced (via research) that our 1 mpg could be maintained at notably higher speed, let’s say 22-24 knot cruise, I might be obliged to let our mechanic work his magic! With current 510 hp in our Tolly she will go 21-22 knots at WOT; she handles well at that speed and trim tabs add to the experience of proper bottom-attitude to water surface. But, at WOT, I bet she is drinking fuel at some 1/2 mpg or more, and, WOT will quickly fry our nice little 255 hp 350 cid motors. At my friend’s prediction of 350 + hp per engine he also says that at a higher cruise speed we could keep them in the 65-75% total power range which is strongly recommended for gas engine longevity.

BTW, we currently carry 200 gallons fuel and could relatively easily increase that by 100 gal for total of 300. How many gals does Moonstruck carry?

Also, marine gas engines and me are friends... engine/fuel-tank area ventilation is paramount and always well addressed/checked by me... so I'm not amiss at gassers for my little 34’ boat’s power source.

Cheers, Art
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Old 11-25-2012, 03:26 PM   #59
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Hi Art,
Sorry to disappoint, but she's not a Tolly. She is a 2006 Westcoast 46, built in Mission BC. However, the Westcoast 46's were built from the old Tolly 43 mold with the cockpit lengthened 3'. The layout of the interior is very similar to the Tolly, just updated.

Power is a single 270 hp Cummins. Most are powered by twin Cummins. We like the boat and hull shape and wouldn't hesitate to buy a 43 Tolly. The hull shape is very different than the 44 and 48 Tollys which both have hard chines
Lyle
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Old 11-25-2012, 03:51 PM   #60
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Hi Art. Moonstruck has a dry weight listed from the factory as 29.000#. She carries 450 gal of fuel and 160 gal of water. Holding tank is 60 gal. In the slings last time weighed she was 34,000#. I am not certain how accurate that was. She has two 500 hp big block Yanmars. The torque is awesome. I have to be careful to make certain everyone is seated or holding on when we speed up. When the turbos spool up, hang on. From 22-27 knots there is only a slight difference in fuel mileage. She handles like a sports car both running at around the dock.

Other than the speed, we cruise Moonstruck much like our trawler friends. We carry a good dinghy and bicycles for spending a lot of time at anchor. She has everything we need on an extended cruise of several days. After we get to the area we are cruising the fuel burn is negligible.
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