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Old 03-16-2015, 07:08 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Delta_JimS View Post
Huh? "Wages at all levels except the top level tend to rise."

BB, where have you been the last 7 years? The top level have been making out like robber barons, while 60M are either under or unemployed or have given up.
Raising the minimum wage is going to put more to work?
When you quote, don't throw away the context. I was speaking of what happens as a result of increasing the minimum wage, which hasn't happened the last few years. And yes, minimum wage does address the under employed. It does take families above the poverty level.

Sorry I introduced the topic though as my real point remains people lack the time to boat.
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Old 03-16-2015, 07:14 PM   #62
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Since this conversation has morphed into a philosophy of how we spend our time and money, I remember reading an article in the Wall Street Journal back in the '80s about Americans, money and time.

At the time, the issue was while Americans had a two week vacation, western Europeans had 6 weeks. While there was some talk of longer vacations, when given the choice between more time off or more money, people of every income level, chose more money.

Thus, while the European had one small, gas efficient car, Americans had two or more.

I was interested in this conversation because I preferred the European life style, more time off, simpler toys, smaller homes.

And 30 years later, nothing has really changed.

To each his own.
Your points on style of living are very valid. Just look at the average house size. I think you'd find a lot has changed since the 80's. Average hours worked have increased, time off decreased. A lot of workers are exhausted and family life is non-existent. I would add one thing. Most Americans don't know this isn't normal and isn't the way Europe or other areas work. They're shocked to hear about vacation, size of house, sharing of small autos and other differences. Just in South Florida they are astonished that Canadian visitors can stay so long.
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Old 03-16-2015, 07:26 PM   #63
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Wxx3,

Love those nice, small, KK toys you have....
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Old 03-16-2015, 07:47 PM   #64
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IMO, a federal minimum wage is pointless. A living wage in Ft Lauderdale should likely be 2 or 3 times what is is in rural Louisiana. Would probably make more sense to have local minimum wage and tie it to a marker such as average residential property tax. After all, isn't having a living wage about being paid enough to afford a place to live?

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Old 03-16-2015, 08:04 PM   #65
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Old 03-16-2015, 09:00 PM   #66
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Wow what a interesting thread, it actually compelled me to post! Raising minimum wage will just cost jobs as jobs that pay minimum require minimum training. Jobs like those are not designed for you to (live off of) they are for those entering the workforce.
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Old 03-16-2015, 09:15 PM   #67
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Yeah tal, lov'n it!

Once more really have to agree totally with Ted. Another example of the Feds and their "one size fits all" approach to Central Management of the country - exactly what the Founding Fathers found so abhorrent about Colonial rule and what they warned us about.

Being (unfortunately) from a most Liberal California, here they have their own, much higher minimum wage - and that's OK. Like Ted said, makes some sense on a more local level, but even at the State level, it is a bit over reaching.(but CA is known for that)

If Oregon wants to pay $15/hr. min., I have no problem with that. What I DO have a problem with is politicians in DC telling some small town in Mississippi how much they must pay a waitress - way, way too much Soviet-style central management by political decree!
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Old 03-16-2015, 09:19 PM   #68
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One more rant-on the minimum wage thing-as Seattle folks here know, Seattle has joined the "Living Wage" movement and is attempting to raise the minimum wage in Seattle to $15/hour. The biggest opponents are the fast food restaurant who rely on young, Hispanic or other minority workers. They claim it is a "competitive" issue. I have heard at least one congressman claim, with a straight face, that the Federal minimum wage of $7.25/hour is a "living wage". Well, let him try to live on it. It is not a "competitive" issue.Iif all businesses have to live by it, it, by definition, is not a competitive issue.

Sorry for the hijack-rant over.
I agree that it needs to go up but can someone call the Fed and tell them to stop printing money and handing it out...kind of counterproductive.

Tough line to walk as I also firmly believe that those kinds of jobs are for high school and college kids. If you think that you can support a family flipping burgers, you should of wore a condom
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Old 03-16-2015, 09:35 PM   #69
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So do people actually pay that for this boat and then just eat that kind of depreciation?

I could not justify that kind of depreciation for anything in this world.
So back to the OP's opening post.

One has to keep in mind the sorts of folks who spend this kind of money on a boat (or a plane or.....). First of all, there is a good chance--- and this will make Mule very happy--- that the expenses of the boat are being written off, either partly or entirely. So the depreciation might actually be a good thing for some buyers. It can represent a "loss" if the boat is owned by a business or used for a business.

And of course, using a boat for business doesn't mean it actually has to be used for business, it means that the owner, or more likley his/her/their finance, tax, and legal folks are very clever at figuring out how to make it appear the boat is being used for business in the eyes of the IRS (in this country).

And.... there's nothing to say that the boat has to even be in this country even if it is. Most of the really big yachts I see in this region, the kinds with helicopters and stuff on them, are not flying US or Canadian flags.

Now to these folks, a $1.6 million dollar boat like a SeaRay is chump change and is just a present to give to their uncle Boris on his 65th birthday.

But even to the people for whom $1.6 million is a hefty sum, there are all sorts of ways to make that money much easier to spend. Or not spend, as the case may be.

Everything is relative, I think. For some people, a $15,000 trailer fishing boat is a major expense in proportion to their income or savings, and their other expenses--- house, transportation, etc.

For the person for whom a $1.6 million dollar boat is a feasible expense, all the other numbers will be in proportion: income, home(s), transportation, and so on. So they will view that $1.6 million boat the same way the other fellow views a $15,000 trailer boat.

Where it seems wierd is when the person to whom a $60,000 diesel cruiser is a major expense but one he/she can just manage to pull off tries to contemplate buying a $1.6 million boat. Because he or she is going to relate spending that kind of money to what he or she has. It's the only thing they can relate to, right?

If the CEO of the company I work for, for example, decided he wanted a boat of his own for whatever reason, he may very well view buying a $1.6 million boat as a very reasonable cost for the kind of boat he wants. He may even view it as a fairly inexpensive boat, as boats of the type the crowd he moves in tends to buy.

In the same way that I don't hang about with the ski boat or pontoon boat or kayak crowds, the CEO of our company does not hang about with my crowd. So to him, a $1.6 million SeaRay may be the absolute rock-bottom "price" of entry to boating with his crowd.

It's all relative. I can say, "I'd never buy that kind of boat for that much money and take that kind of depreciation hit." But.... if I was the kind of person to whom that kind or money and depreciation hit was par for the course, it's very likely I woud be a very different kind of person. And that person might very well view a $1.6 million SeaRay as the coolest boat on the planet.

And I would look with great pity on the people who had to plod around at 8 knots in old, cheap, un-cool diesel cruisers, if I bothered to look on them at all.

And last but not least, people talk about the top one-percent or ten-percent or whatever-percent of wealthy people. Sounds like a small percentage compared to the middle and poor class percentages, right?

But the overall population is a really big number, even bigger when you roll in other countries with a very wealthy class like China, India, Russia, and so forth. So that top one percent or ten percent is actually a hell of a lot of people. Which means SeaRay's market for their high-end boats is actually a very, very large market on a world-wide scale.

Which is why, when we were shooting a job in Xiamen, China a few years ago, a city on the southeast coast of China, there were huge SeaRay billboards all over the place. And not for their runabout-type boats, either, but for their really big ones.
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Old 03-16-2015, 09:35 PM   #70
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I would never have thought that a new 51 SeaRay Sundancer now has a price of $1.6M..That's right, million for a Sundancer.

It may only be a Sundancer, but it's also a new, 51-foot power boat. And a Sea Ray, at that.
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Old 03-16-2015, 10:10 PM   #71
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It may only be a Sundancer, but it's also a new, 51-foot power boat. And a Sea Ray, at that.
If you really want shock, look at Sea Ray's new 65' L Class Yachts. Incredible boats and they'll make the $1.6 million look small. But those are the boats that have shown such early success they had to reopen a factory at Merritt Island they'd closed some years ago. (Not the large one they sold to Bertram that someone else is now reopening to apparently build for Ocean Alexander, but the small one beside it).
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Old 03-16-2015, 10:14 PM   #72
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Sure it is a tax writeoff and at that tier, they don't care. I really did enjoy when the Hummer H2 came out and everyone with a small business decided that a $60k truck was an awesome tax deduction because it fit into a certain weight class. Those suckers soon realized that it wasn't worth anything because of a niche market, price of fuel, and lack of capability. I still don't understand the justification to purchase something that is going to depreciate more than it will save you momentarily. Maybe I am wrong and that in the million dollar price point, the scale is skewed.
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Old 03-16-2015, 10:56 PM   #73
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Sure it is a tax writeoff and at that tier, they don't care. I really did enjoy when the Hummer H2 came out and everyone with a small business decided that a $60k truck was an awesome tax deduction because it fit into a certain weight class. Those suckers soon realized that it wasn't worth anything because of a niche market, price of fuel, and lack of capability. I still don't understand the justification to purchase something that is going to depreciate more than it will save you momentarily. Maybe I am wrong and that in the million dollar price point, the scale is skewed.
People don't purchase Hummers for tax benefits. They may somehow try to justify it in their mind. You didn't purchase your boat to save money. You purchased it for pleasure. We all buy boats for the pleasure gratification. Very few in the world have a business reason to make such purchases. But we buy cars for more than transportation purposes. We buy food for more than nourishment. The problem is when we purchase beyond our means and that's a problem if it's a small or large purchase. It's like gambling. Makes no sense to me at all to see NBA and former NBA players lose (throw away, literally if at craps) $50,000 in Vegas. But that to them may be like others buying a ticket to a game which then is the equivalent of someone else renting a movie. There are no absolutes. All relative.

See, most of these things aren't financial decisions even if limited by finances. I had someone who worked for me who was just dying to buy a new pick up truck. He talked about fuel savings. He talked every financial justification he could. I finally just told him that if he was intent on financially justifying it, he'd just drive his Rabbit (that was his car model) forever. Replace the engine even when it needed it. Buying a new vehicle doesn't justify itself financially. On the other hand a lot of automakers glad we don't look at it that way.
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Old 03-17-2015, 12:59 AM   #74
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.... I bought my first boat at 36 (I turn 39 in a few weeks), a 20 year old 58' footer. A great boat, and everyone said I
was crazy, never owning a boat before. They said it was too big, I could not handle it. Well, I got a captain to sign off on my insurance after the first day of running it. He said it usually takes a few weeks. I put more hours on it, its first year than just about anyone in my marina, that was weekends and 3 weeks of vacation. I did not shy away from anything, and worked hard to learn everything. By the 18month, I singled handed the boat several times. No, it did not have stern thrusters. Then we sold the company I helped grow (IT company). .....

The point? Don't judge a book, person, or generation by its cover. We all march to our own drums.

By the way, I reached that goal this summer by captaining my vessel and family (4kids) up to Alaska, and while I would not mind experiencing the rush of the new tesla, my investments are for either my future retirement or for providing my family with experiences they will tell their kids about.


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Very well said!

Stay out of Judgement, and get into Curiosity!

I applaud you! I have often wondered why people with boats try to convince new boaters to not start out on a larger boat. Just because they didn't? Without knowing anything about the person, what their ability to learn is, decision making style, temperament, passion, energy, willingness to do what it takes, ability to discern good advice and takes it, etc. but just "you can't do that", "thats to big to start out on" .... why? "You should do it like I did." There are some in this world who set their mind to something and flat make it happen, against all "conventional advice". If one gets the right training, is committed to learning everything, and as the "nautibeaver" says (that just seems wrong to say in a public forum ) haha .... "doesn't shy away from anything", but just gets it done. I see nothing wrong with that and support them enthusiastically, and applaud them. So we should not judge people on their dreams because it is different than our own or assume they are going to do it unsafely and be a danger to others ... leave the judgement for those who are causing problems. Am I a saint, of course not but I do try to become curious about others and their situations instead of jumping in judgement. Not a good place to live your life.

Be curious my friend!

my add to the rant thread.
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Old 03-17-2015, 01:13 AM   #75
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Very well said!



Stay out of Judgement, and get into Curiosity!



I applaud you! I have often wondered why people with boats try to convince new boaters to not start out on a larger boat. Just because they didn't? Without knowing anything about the person, what their ability to learn is, decision making style, temperament, passion, energy, willingness to do what it takes, ability to discern good advice and takes it, etc. but just "you can't do that", "thats to big to start out on" .... why? "You should do it like I did." There are some in this world who set their mind to something and flat make it happen, against all "conventional advice". If one gets the right training, is committed to learning everything, and as the "nautibeaver" says (that just seems wrong to say in a public forum ) haha .... "doesn't shy away from anything", but just gets it done. I see nothing wrong with that and support them enthusiastically, and applaud them. So we should not judge people on their dreams because it is different than our own or assume they are going to do it unsafely and be a danger to others ... leave the judgement for those who are causing problems. Am I a saint, of course not but I do try to become curious about others and their situations instead of jumping in judgement. Not a good place to live your life.



Be curious my friend!



my add to the rant thread.

Just so you feel at ease saying it (nautibeaver). I'm an Oregon State'r and frankly, wetBeaver was well, a bit over the top! Name:  ImageUploadedByTrawler Forum1426569186.830482.jpg
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Old 03-17-2015, 07:49 AM   #76
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Sure it is a tax writeoff and at that tier, they don't care. I really did enjoy when the Hummer H2 came out and everyone with a small business decided that a $60k truck was an awesome tax deduction because it fit into a certain weight class. Those suckers soon realized that it wasn't worth anything because of a niche market, price of fuel, and lack of capability. I still don't understand the justification to purchase something that is going to depreciate more than it will save you momentarily. Maybe I am wrong and that in the million dollar price point, the scale is skewed.
A customer of mine used to have an insurance agency. He was very successful right up to retirement. Paid a lot of taxes. In his business, you're allowed a company car to drive around and see your policy holders and view claims. No Hummer for him. His business leased a Jaguar, them a BMW, and so on. His rational was that the lease was a 100% right off for the company which meant the government was contributing whatever the corporate profits tax rate was toward the lease. Think I was the only client he ever went to see with it.

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Old 03-17-2015, 09:11 AM   #77
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A customer of mine used to have an insurance agency. He was very successful right up to retirement. Paid a lot of taxes. In his business, you're allowed a company car to drive around and see your policy holders and view claims. No Hummer for him. His business leased a Jaguar, them a BMW, and so on. His rational was that the lease was a 100% right off for the company which meant the government was contributing whatever the corporate profits tax rate was toward the lease. Think I was the only client he ever want to see with it.

Ted
You hear these stories but under today's tax laws absolutely would not work. First the deduction allowed is limited to the value of a much lower priced vehicle and is not reflective of the cost of a Jaguar or BMW. Second, the use of the vehicle for business vs. personal use must be differentiated. If an employee is allowed to use it for personal use (and driving to and from work is personal use) then taxable income is reported for the value of that use.

The old times of business owners tossing expensive personal cars into their companies has changed significantly and this isn't recent, it has occurred over the last 30 years or so.
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Old 03-17-2015, 10:16 AM   #78
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You hear these stories but under today's tax laws absolutely would not work. First the deduction allowed is limited to the value of a much lower priced vehicle and is not reflective of the cost of a Jaguar or BMW. Second, the use of the vehicle for business vs. personal use must be differentiated. If an employee is allowed to use it for personal use (and driving to and from work is personal use) then taxable income is reported for the value of that use.

The old times of business owners tossing expensive personal cars into their companies has changed significantly and this isn't recent, it has occurred over the last 30 years or so.
Yes, the rich are evil. But darn it, even back into the seventies the most expensive vehicle I could write off was a Ford pickup. My Boss drove a Marquis, sadly it could only get the write off as if it were a kissing cousin nearly identical Ford 4 door. By the mid eighties the company could give out Caddies as perks, but the overage over the Ford was deemed income to the driver.

Likely we have a few good tax accountants onboard who can set the historical timing record straight.
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Old 03-17-2015, 10:59 AM   #79
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Yes, the rich are evil. But darn it, even back into the seventies the most expensive vehicle I could write off was a Ford pickup. My Boss drove a Marquis, sadly it could only get the write off as if it were a kissing cousin nearly identical Ford 4 door. By the mid eighties the company could give out Caddies as perks, but the overage over the Ford was deemed income to the driver.

Likely we have a few good tax accountants onboard who can set the historical timing record straight.
By the time I started preparing tax returns in my father's office around 1985 or so, the changes had already taken place. Now I think they were still tweaked a bit. But by the time I joined a public business in 1990 they were much as they are today.

I remember my first times dealing with an entity in Australia and finding that our company had rules based on US tax laws which just made no sense there. Company cars, even vacations and some other benefits could be provided and deductible to the company but not taxable to the employee. It was silly for us not to take advantage of the tax and payroll laws in each country we had facilities. Now I have no idea how Australia or other tax laws are today. However, from all my experience, the US has the strongest limitations on fringe benefits of any country. IRS agents audit a billion dollar company and they'll spend days reviewing travel expense reports (always the job for their rookie agent on the job).
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Old 03-18-2015, 08:51 AM   #80
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I think Canada's CCRA has the IRS beat.
Our deductions and benefits are almost zero.

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